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Another Berserker>Cleric (or Druid) Idea

Hello, this weekend, I've been building a berserker to be dualed to cleric in IWD, and I'm thinking about doing the same idea for BG and SoD.

An idea that I've never seen discussed is dualing at level 5 as opposed to level 7.

The reason I'm tempted to dual at level 5 is that at that level, I just got my second berserk activation. I know that at 6, I would get an extra pip, and at 7, I would get an extra half attack per round.

I would have to go to 9 to get a third berserk activation, and another half attack.

The pip at level 6 berserker is losing its appeal for me, because it is very hard not to waste the 2 or 3 pips I get when I first dual into and progress through my cleric levels. This is especially true since I use BG 1 weapon proficiencies via Tweaks, and so I can only put pips into blunt weapons, spiked weapons, and missile weapons (slings).

So, is it really worth it to go the distance to at least level 7 berserker for me? In both IWD and BG? With SoD coming?

In IWD, I am wanting to use my berserker "divine ecstasy" to face the myconid armies in Dorn's Deep. I do *not* want to arrive there with my berserker powers impaired.

In BG, I do *not* want to face Sarevok and Company without my berserker powers, nor do I want to feel like I *have* to complete Durlag's Tower (I hate it), Ice Island, and/or Werewolf Island.

Also, don't forget that SoD is going to change everything, in ways we don't know for sure yet.

What do you all think? Can I dual my berserker to cleric at level 5 without needlessly sacrificing power at various game phases? (I am *not* a player who thinks only of ToB. I like an even power curve throughout all the game phases, and I always play with a full party.)

Comments

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,212
    If you're not running Heart of Winter (or the BG equivalent; is that even in BG1 yet?) then you're probably okay dualing earlier. The 1/2 APR from lvl 7 is quite nice, though, and doesn't come at TOO steep a cost. However, it IS a cost, and whether you want to pay it depends on how highly you value what you get.

    I'm no expert on BG1 so I can't estimate too well how far a later dual sets you back; and I haven't played IWD:EE without HoW mode on, so that's skewed, too. However, the games probably aren't hard enough for the lvl 7 APR to matter too much. You can dual at 5 and enjoy a smoother, more convenient leveling curve, which seems to me to be of more use to you than a bit more theoretical combat performance.
  • GrumGrum Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,100
    Why not do something really new?

    Cleric of Lathander lvl 10 dual to fighter

    This gets you...

    2x castings of boon of Lathander. Lasts for 66 seconds, giving you +1 saving throws, +1 attack per round and immunity to level drain.

    Your draw upon holy might gives you +3 strength, con and dexterity (so by ToB this gives you 24 in each stat. Not bad!)

    As a lvl 10 cleric you have access to righteous magic. Each attack does max damage! It's like making your fighter a kensai without any of the kensai drawbacks, and you can do it twice per day. It also lasts 10 rounds, so more than enough time.

    Add in other spells like sanctuary, and you end up with a kensai who can easily boost his strength, wear armor, escape from combat...the only drawback is being stuck with blunt weapons. But given that you can have grandmastery with flail of ages and defender of easthaven (hardiness, armor of faith and defender of easthaven=tank) and you are good to go!
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,212
    I think he's talking about BG, IWD, and SoD, not about BG2. Obviously, really, since dualing at 5 or 7 is not a thing in BG2.
  • GrumGrum Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,100

    I think he's talking about BG, IWD, and SoD, not about BG2. Obviously, really, since dualing at 5 or 7 is not a thing in BG2.

    Ah you are right! Forgot about that...
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,653
    @Grum, the main thing I want with this character idea is those sweet berserker immunities.

    I went ahead and started trying this in my IWD run. I just got Held by a priest in the verbeeg temple. Luckily my party was able to finish them off before I got killed.

    I *definitely* want those berserker immunities back before the famous choke point on the second level of Dragon's Eye. I've arrived at the entrance at level four cleric. That means I need two more cleric levels before my level five berserker immunities reactivate. I'm not sure at all that I'm going to make it. Hold Person is a save-or-die at early levels.
  • mashedtatersmashedtaters Member Posts: 2,266
    My favorite thing about dualing at level 7 or 9 is playing 3 different characters...first a fighter, then a cleric or mage or thief, and then a combination of those two. I think dualing at level 5 is perfectly legitimate. It will be like having a normal cleric with some extra hitpoints, two berserker abilities, and the ability to achieve grandmastery. It sounds like dualing at higher levels is going to be a disadvantage for your current mindset, so don't do it. The extra apr is nice, and so is the extra hp, but they're only fully realized later in the game. Think of it like you got a normal cleric with a serious advantage, rather than a gimped fighter->cleric dual. Just because Viconia and branwen are not dual class clerics doesn't mean they are not useful. They are both very powerful just because they are clerics. Your character will be more powerful than that, more quickly than more frequently used builds.
  • WowoWowo Member Posts: 2,064
    Definitely go to level 7 as having a non integer attack rate only gives you half the benefit of haste.
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,212
    Wowo said:

    Definitely go to level 7 as having a non integer attack rate only gives you half the benefit of haste.

    This is interesting, could you elaborate? I thought Haste just gave a flat +1 APR, regardless of base APR?
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    @Lord_Tansheron It is or at least used to be bugged to only give 1/2 APR if you APR is not even. For example, 3.5 APR -> 4 APR instead of 4.5 APR.
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,212
    Huh, never knew. Guess there's still surprises after 10+ years.
  • Jaheiras_WitnessJaheiras_Witness Member Posts: 614
    You have to remember that the difference between level 5 berserker and level 7 berserker is NOT just 1 extra proficiency and 0.5 attack. It is also +2 THAC0 and extra HPs (up to +4 from dice and enhanced CON bonus of +6 if CON = 19).

    The cost of all those bonuses is 48k XP in fighter progression and 82.5k in cleric progression before you get your berserker levels back.

    In a trilogy context 130k XP is next to nothing (and you should probably go to Berserker 9 for even more goodies). But in a BG1 only context that is a huge investment...indeed, you cannot even get to Berserker 7/Cleric 8 without an XP cap remover (takes 174k XP).
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,653
    edited March 2016
    Whelp, @Jaheiras_Witness , you were right, as it turns out.

    I started deeply regretting my decision to dual my berserker>cleric at level five.

    I *still* didn't have my berserker rages reactivated in time for the Mother Eugenia scenario in Dragon's Eye that I had feared. I managed to pull through it anyway, using Spike Growth from Nella, and Stinking Cloud from Severn.

    I got my berserker abilities back shortly after, but I started really stressing over the fact that I was permanently stuck at 1.5 apr. I did not think that the extra healing and Holy Smites against the cold wights on the next level were worth that permanent gimp.

    So, I have used Keeper to reset the character to berserker level 7, which is coincidentally the exact level he reached after fighting all the skeleton knights and cold wights on level 3 of Dragon's Eye, but before confronting the necromancer on that level. I went ahead and dualed him to cleric, with a single pip now in spiked weapons (in order to avoid wasting any pips in the four pips I now have in blunt weapons), and a single pip in two-handed weapon styles (in order to again not waste a pip, and be awesome with a staff as soon as I finally get my berserker abilities back).

    That means I am facing the level three of Dragon's Eye necromancer now as a level one cleric with a lot of hit points, and probably even eventually Yxonomei without my combat abilities reactivated. This frightens me very much, but we'll see how it all turns out. I will have to depend on my party to carry me through.

    Roleplaying this eventually very powerful character is a concern to me. I think the logical thing would be that his deity gifted him with berserker rage, which I am roleplaying as more of a "divine ecstasy" gift from his god, and then he has a crisis of faith when his friends begin to get hurt, and he has no healing or ability to protect others. So, he supplicates his god for healing and protective powers, other than the gift of making himself almost invulnerable, and his god answers his prayers by testing him and makes him pay a cost by giving him rudimentary healing spells, but taking away his ecstasy ability until he proves he is worthy to have both self-protective divine ecstasy, and the ability to heal and protect others through divine magical gifts.

    The logical roleplaying place to do this in BG is at the beginning of BG2, where a crisis of faith would be very expected.

    Mechanically, though, I just really hate to waste xp in BG1 and, now, SoD. It would make the most sense, roleplaying wise, to just stick to berserker until bringing the character to the beginning of BG2.

    But how does the math work out on that? Remind me, please, what is the new xp cap for SoD?

    What level will a berserker be, at the start of BG2, after playing the entirety of BG1 and SoD with the intention of dualing to cleric in BG2?

    How many xp will be wasted?
  • BillyYankBillyYank Member Posts: 2,768
    BTW, the third level of Dragon's Eye is a wonderful place to rest, especially if you're feeling a little underlevelled. :wink:
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,653
    edited March 2016
    @BillyYank , Yup, the revered Mother Eugenia, gods bless her. We went through Hades and almost died to save her, and yet she still charges us for any cures we need. But, she *will* give us a safe resting place. Happy, happy, joy, joy. ;)

    EDIT: Whoops, I was thinking level two. I just realized you were suggesting I use cold wight attempted rest spawns to level back up. Hmmm. I'll think about it, but that seems kind of cheap. Definitely not what my god had in mind with our "deal".
  • mashedtatersmashedtaters Member Posts: 2,266
    Role playing dual class never made sense. The AD&D book says something about the stress of learning a brand new profession is too much that you need to focus on only the current class, or some bs like that. In all honesty, it's just a set of power-gamer reins.

    I don't know what the XP cap in SoD is, but without SoD, if you max out XP in BGEE and transfer him over to BG2EE at level 7 fighter, you will get your fighter levels back shortly after exiting chateau Irenicus. Imagining that the XP cap in SoD is higher, you will probably have your fighter levels back by the time you get to BG2EE.
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    Eh, the pen-and-paper explanation for dual-classing makes alright sense. Not great sense, but decent enough (certainly more than a lot of things in D&D). In PnP, you don't lose access to your original class's abilities, you just don't gain any experience for your new class if you use abilities from the old class. Which does make some sense. After all, you're not gonna get better as your new abilities if you're using your old abilities as a crutch. Baldur's Gate is just trying to approximate that as best it can.

    Now, why you can't then gain experience for your first class, ever again, I have no explanation for. That is not, in my experience, how skillsets work.
  • BillyYankBillyYank Member Posts: 2,768

    @BillyYank , Yup, the revered Mother Eugenia, gods bless her. We went through Hades and almost died to save her, and yet she still charges us for any cures we need. But, she *will* give us a safe resting place. Happy, happy, joy, joy. ;)

    EDIT: Whoops, I was thinking level two. I just realized you were suggesting I use cold wight attempted rest spawns to level back up. Hmmm. I'll think about it, but that seems kind of cheap. Definitely not what my god had in mind with our "deal".

    Oh yes, cheesy and cheap as all get out.
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