stylbonu.2da
Jarrakul
Member Posts: 2,029
So, there's been some discussion over in the Siege of Dragonspear forum about the fact that the game's four melee fighting styles aren't exactly... balanced. But we can change that, or at least we can try, by editing stylbonu.2da. My question is, what do you folks think would make the styles balanced? Limiting ourselves, for the moment, to the sorts of changes that can currently be implemented. That's THAC0, damage, armor class, AC vs. ranged, weapon speed, and crit.
Note that we can also modify the baseline "no pips" version of a fighting style, which is pretty cool.
My current thoughts:
One-weapon fighting needs to be better. Maybe a +1 to hit across the board, and higher THAC0/AC bonuses for the second pip? What about weapon speed bonuses?
Two-weapon fighting needs to be worse. I'm currently thinking a damage penalty to all attacks, maybe something like a straight -2, no matter the proficiency level?
Two-handed style probably needs the second point to actually do something other than weapon speed.
Sword and shield needs to be better at high levels, but doesn't really need much buffing at low levels. That makes it tricky. I'd really like to add physical resistances to this one, as that'd more-or-less accomplish that dynamic, but that can't currently be done as far as I know.
How does that sound? Do those sound like the right directions to go? Should bonuses/penalties be large or small? Do you have an edited stylbonu.2da of your own to share?
Note that we can also modify the baseline "no pips" version of a fighting style, which is pretty cool.
My current thoughts:
One-weapon fighting needs to be better. Maybe a +1 to hit across the board, and higher THAC0/AC bonuses for the second pip? What about weapon speed bonuses?
Two-weapon fighting needs to be worse. I'm currently thinking a damage penalty to all attacks, maybe something like a straight -2, no matter the proficiency level?
Two-handed style probably needs the second point to actually do something other than weapon speed.
Sword and shield needs to be better at high levels, but doesn't really need much buffing at low levels. That makes it tricky. I'd really like to add physical resistances to this one, as that'd more-or-less accomplish that dynamic, but that can't currently be done as far as I know.
How does that sound? Do those sound like the right directions to go? Should bonuses/penalties be large or small? Do you have an edited stylbonu.2da of your own to share?
1
Comments
Single Weapon Style - A bonus to THAC0 is certainly appropriate here. I would steer this style away from being the Kensai kit's version of a Shield, though; I'd set it to +2 THAC0 for the first pip, and then an additional +1 THAC0 and +1 AC for the second pip. That means with two pips, you have +3 THAC0 and +1 AC. Enough to give you a bit of a defensive edge, but not enough to really replace a shield. Both pips could also boost Speed Factor, too.
Two-Handed Weapon Style - Damage all the way. The first pip should give you a damage bonus; the second pip should increase that bonus and also improve critical range. I'd set it to +2 Damage for the first pip, and then +1 damage and +1 Crit range for the second. That means for two pips you get +3 Damage and 19-20 crit. I'd leave speed factor out of the picture completely on this one.
Sword and Shield Style - This doesn't go nearly far enough. A bonus to AC against missile weapons is useless when you're running up to people in melee. I'd give it +1 AC and +2 AC vs Missile for the first pip, and an additional +1 AC and +2 AC vs Missile for the second pip. So two pips gets you +2 AC, +6 against missile weapons. Tank away.
Two-Weapon Style - Let's start with the penalties. A damage penalty is definitely appropriate here, and it should probably stick around even at high levels. -2 seems appropriate. I would also impose a Speed Factor penalty; your Assassin shouldn't be able to zip around as quickly if they're trying to maneuver two blades instead of one. -2 damage, -2 speed factor. Then I'd flatten the THAC0 penalties a bit: -4 for no pips, -2 for one pip, -1 for two pips and we get rid of the speed factor penalty. And I wouldn't have a third pip at all. This means, for two pips, you're still facing -2 damage and -1 THAC0, but you're 20% "faster" than anyone else who's only wielding one weapon.
Two-Weapon Style is almost always going to be the preferable choice. What you need it to be is just slightly less of an automatic one.
[spoiler] [/spoiler]
Also, you seem to have left off the damage penalties from the first pip of TWF.
The other reason is that you shouldn't have to be thinking about THAC0 when you're deciding which weapon to use in which hand. Dual-wielding gives you exactly one attack with the off-hand weapon, and that's not something that can be changed, but making the penalties the same means there's less of a consideration when deciding what to equip where.
And, yes, you're right. I messed up that table a bit. here's the fixed version.
Uploading my own draft version. It's a lot like @Dee's, but with a couple tweaks, which I'll explain.
Two-Weapon Style: I increased the off-hand penalties as discussed above. Otherwise it's the same. That makes it slightly less powerful than Dee's version, but my intuition is that it's still far from underpowered.
Single Weapon Style: I added +1 to hit to one-weapon style with 0 pips, partially because I think that's interesting (and probably balanced, as two-handed weapons are generally better than one-handed weapons), and partially because I was just watching a scholiagladiatoria video comparing fighting with a sword and shield vs. fighting with just a one-handed sword, and he mentioned that you can attack from many more angles with just the one-handed sword. I also added an increased crit to the first point of single weapon style, basically because one point of the THAC0 bonus no longer "belongs" to that first pip.
Two-Handed Style: I added -2 speed factor to the 2-pip version, basically because it feels right. I'm not even a little concerned about what this does to the balance.
Sword and Shield: Unchanged from Dee's version.
But that being said, there's certainly nothing wrong in the balance or design of applying a -2 penalty to off-hand attacks. Like you say, TWF is pretty powerful any way you slice it. I have no problems with the other changes you made.
Two-handed weapons: The biggest advantage was their lenght. Their hitting radius was bigger, which made opponents with shorter weapons stay in a distance, where they couldn't directly hit. (so 1h (shorter) weapons should have THAC0 penalty against 2h (longer) weapons.
Sword and shield: Shield gave a huge defensive capability obviously, but also gave a perfect attack opportunity, when blocking (bashing) an opponent's weapon with it. This was my favourite move. (so maybe a distinct AC bonus and a slight THAC0 bonus when using shield)
Two weapons: The second weapon worked mostly as a shield, blocking an opponents attack, creating an attack of opportunity for the main weapon, with very occasional attack with the second weapon itself (we always used very small second weapons, because using a heavy one in the left hand was much more inefficient). But, we had a friend, who I guess was ambidexterous, and he was a beast with two weapons. I never knew from which side to expect a hit. (so mild bonuses for AC and THAC0 for characters with low dexterity, and additional APR for characters with 17+ dexterity)
Single 1h weapon: We never used a single 1h weapon. The options above were always superior.
Well, that was fun to remember.
Your experience reminded me a little bit of the Aikido class I took for a year (I sucked, so don't be afraid, I can't hurt you). Although Aikido isn't as much about weapons, my Sensei used wooden weapons in styles similar to BG2, but no shield, to show us how to handle armed opponents.
Two Handed: Using a weapon (Katana, or baseball bat) with two hands has some advantages. Length was a huge advantage. Another was power. The biggest disadvantage was recovering after a swing, or in other words control. All those balance out when facing someone else using a two-handed weapon.
Two weapons: We used a short sword and a dagger. Easily the most difficult and most overrated in the media. I ended up using my offhand as more of a shield. I was constantly confused as to whether or not I should try to take an opening and with which hand and...gah!!
Single handed: My best, no matter what weapon I used (dagger, short sword, anything). Having that extra hand free really allows for some opportunistic manipulations of your opponent, your own weapon, and balance. Even a jab or a grab with your offhand presents a huge advantage when you're only a swing away from stabbing someone in the throat. Hehe.
I think that using a shield would have been the easiest for me. Never got to do it, though.
I still don't know that I'd call it a strait-jacket. A cookie without a glass of milk, maybe.