I have taken some more feedback from everyone on the forums to alter the newest design.
Im more just showing that it can be done rather then expecting it to be changed. Maybe one of the many talented modders in the community could use it as inspiration. Im sure people will prefer some elements from one design then the other so you could mix and match some of the elements. Also as mentioned before the button names and text are just examples to show how the information could be presented.
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The list of the changes from feedback:
1) Added the ability for collapsible text within the main text view were applicable
2) Removed the status effects as people didn't like the scrolling and it also allowed me to add information people felt was more important. You could always just have the status menu open on the left text area anyway which would show you a larger list of the effects achieving the same result.
3) The new UI has the issue of being unable know what level you are or how much experience you need when your are duel or multi-classed. I have attempted to give a dedicated space that allows upto 3 different classes to be shown with their level and experience. It was important to have enough space for upto 8million xp for when bg2 levels come into play. I have also removed the xp 'bar' as I found it kinda pointless as everyone should know basic maths but could be easily implemented if people really wanted.
4) One of the things I kept hearing on the forums is people wanted to be able to see there Lore and reputation modifier so they have also been permanently added to the main interface.
5) Fixed the left alignment of the Ability score list.
6) Changed font to BG font.. its not identical but best I could find.
If you have no space for rep bane how about a colour scheme? Varying shades of red to blue to white to indicate severity?
Yeah the space is exactly the issue. At what point does the text become to small to read or when do you start to call it over crowded.
The color variations could help solve the reputation issue for sure. Plus for most of the things on the menu I would think a tool-top could pop up on mouse hover with its full name.
Even for the xp bar people were wanting to know how much xp to the next level. While i couldn't fit it in you could always just have a tool tip with that information to if you really wanted it. Plus there would still be expanded information in the menu tabs as well.
@00zim00 Love it. If the bars could fill up with a red color as you gain XP towards your next level(s) as it does in Neverwinter Nights 2, that would be just fantastic.
I like this concept a lot, especially the last Iteration. One thing to keep in mind yet are Tablets with Touch interface. I know some don't care at all (and some find a Text Blob superior to an interface no matter how tedious that was for 18 years now) but tablets are there and used to play this game, and it plays different but okay to me (I'd say I play 25% Tablet and 75% PC). Some of the elements in this draft are a bit hard to use with fingers on smaller tabs, and it would not take much to make them more accessible. (Given someone ever mods this into the game)
Some feedback on the last picture: Right side of the window is very cluttered, information there doesn't have much space, so the font cannot be scaled (something BeamDog minds a lot in its current design). I would also replace the level and experience information in the right bottom with the values of AC, HP, THAC0 and damage, since that is important to see at glance and the level and experience is in the left as well. I would also move the lore and rep into the text blob. No way these information are important enough to warrant a permanent spot among the basic characteristics.
Some feedback on the last picture: Right side of the window is very cluttered, information there doesn't have much space, so the font cannot be scaled (something BeamDog minds a lot in its current design). I would also replace the level and experience information in the right bottom with the values of AC, HP, THAC0 and damage, since that is important to see at glance and the level and experience is in the left as well. I would also move the lore and rep into the text blob. No way these information are important enough to warrant a permanent spot among the basic characteristics.
No I disagree completely. AC, HP, THAC0 and damage can be easily seen in inventory, no need to make them so prominent on the character screen as well. Having experience and level always in view would be useful, as this is the only place you can see them.
As for lore and reputation, I think it has more to do with them not fitting well under any possible category for the text dump. It actually took me several days to find either in the current beta.
No I disagree completely. AC, HP, THAC0 and damage can be easily seen in inventory, no need to make them so prominent on the character screen as well. Having experience and level always in view would be useful, as this is the only place you can see them.
Level and experience is on the left as well, so you see it twice on a single screen. And combat values has always been there and I find them useful. Argumenting that they are on another screen defies the point of this mock-up.
AC and THAC0 are very dependent on your current equipment, while xp/level are entirely character-specific like the rest of the information on this screen (OK, unless stats are boosted...) HP is a good point though.
I would rather include Lore and Rep than move them into the text wall of lost info, unless you are going to replace them with something. This UI is denser, and more info-rich - that is essentially the point of reworking the UI at this point. I will say that Lore and Rep are the two stats I find hardest to locate in the current UI.
Saving throws are the other info that apply equally to all classes that would be handy to have in a top-level, all-in-one, view. These are also a little buried in the wall of text, but easier to find as the 5 stats together stand out visually when scrolling.
@00zim00 throwing out a few more ideas to play with - without any clear idea of what to do with them
You could gain a little more space by replacing the dialog title 'Character Sheet' with the character name. This essentially the game UI that describes character, so name could be title enough.
Similarly, it is good seeing the triple-class form, but I am curious about the more familiar single-class case - which brings us to another space-saving feature: the 'dual class' button is a big disabled screen element unless the PC happens to be human, and has not dualed yet. It might be nice to move this into the space freed up when not playing a multi-class, and perhaps replace it with the original class info after dualing?
Minor nit - the stats appearing *above* the race/class/alignment info make them appear to be the defining part of the character, the most essential info about who they are. I would rather flip those, but that is a flavor thing.
Similarly, thinking as a left-to-right reader, I might to a left/right flip as well, putting the portrait top-left (visually easiest to identify/signature of character), followed by the race/class/stats/etc., and finally the break-out text info. This has the benefit of most interactions being with the scroll-bar now on a more familiar far-right if the information window, rather than somewhere in the middle.
Reverting a little on my previous comment, in favor of @pecca, the AC/THAC0/damage/HP are all easily visible (with break-out info!) on the screen you are replacing in the current (but not 2.0?) UI. I still prefer your direction
Just to clarify something, my feedback isn't supposed to throw things there, that I personaly want (I will be creating my own mod for that). It is supposed to try to improve this idea, so it's a good feedback to the devs for serious consideration. The current beta (2.0) layout is designed with thought of scalable font, this current mock-up is not, therefore there isn't very high probability it gets implemented this way. The level and experience information is displayed twice on the main screen, so one instance must be simply replaced with something else.
Level and experience is on the left as well, so you see it twice on a single screen. And combat values has always been there and I find them useful. Argumenting that they are on another screen defies the point of this mock-up.
As I understand it, that information wouldn't be there actually. The textbox on the left would hold whatever the current tab dictates, like in the current 2.0 beta. While the information on the right would always be visible regardless of which tab is selected.
Level and experience is on the left as well, so you see it twice on a single screen. And combat values has always been there and I find them useful. Argumenting that they are on another screen defies the point of this mock-up.
As I understand it, that information wouldn't be there actually. The textbox on the left would hold whatever the current tab dictates, like in the current 2.0 beta. While the information on the right would always be visible regardless of which tab is selected.
But it would be on the main screen, when a player opens a record sheet (as I understand it).
But it would be on the main screen, when a player opens a record sheet (as I understand it).
I'm not sure what you mean by "main screen." The scrolling text box on the left is there to hold specific subsets of information. If you have the Biography tab selected, it will just show that character's biography, nothing else. If you have the proficiencies tab selected, it will just display weapon proficiencies, nothing else. Furthermore, if class/XP is shown on the right panel at all times, there'd be no need to include it in a special tab to be displayed on the left.
To me it comes down to this: "Do you want class and XP values to always be visible on the character screen, or do you want to select the proper tab to see that information?" I think for the character screen, that information should be always visible.
What I meant is, when you open a record sheet, there will be "main screen" as in "character overview" opened on the left side by default. I assumed from the mock up, that the "character overview" will have information of level and experience on the left, thus showing it twice, when player moves to the record sheet (as it is shown in the picture). So I was pointing that out. I also think that at the first glance, you get better picture of the character overview, when the level, experience and class are shown at the top, rather than bottom. And when you are looking for a specific information, than not showing it doesn't matter all that much (since that's how it works pre-beta).
Ah, that makes more sense. What you call "main screen" I'd call "default tab." Hence the confusion.
However, I'm still not convinced. If it was my decision, I'd make the main screen/default tab show current status effects (haste, free action, protection from fire, etc.). And in the mock-up at least, there is no "character overview" tab.
I see your point of having class/level at the top, but that could still be done while keeping that information always visible on the right hand panel. My main point is that I think if, like in the mock up, some information is going to always be visible on the character records screen, then I think class, level, and XP should be there.
But everyone has different preferences for UIs so its not like there's some objective truth about it.
I was thinking of replying and joining the back and forth conversation but I figure I shouldn't be trying to make the design how I think it should be and should focus on taking all feedback.
So instead im only going to clarify the design elements and not try to sway the conversation.
-Information in the left panel was just added as a copy/paste from the 1.3 UI so it would have the same font. Its not indicative of the exact information that would be displayed by default. So the level information may or may not be there. It could display literally anything that you feel is more important such as has been mentioned the Status effects, Saving throws etc.
- I imagined that the left page would remember which tab/information you had displayed even when clicking out of the UI or into another character. In that sense it would therefore mean you could choose on a player by player bases what you think is the most important information to display. That does not mean you will be able to customize what is displayed I just mean that if for example you wanted the character Biography to always be displayed you would just need to have that tab always selected until you wanted to change it to a different tab.
- The question on how the levels would be displayed if you were a single class and not a duel or multi-class. My thought was that it would just display the one class and xp with the other 2 xp bars not displayed at all. Likewise for a non human race there Duel-Class button would still be present. The reason for this is two fold. To keep the UI consistent between all classes and races, especially important when tabbing though companions in order to quickly compare information. And to avoid having a second UI or even more that would change depending on class/race. Not only would it involve more work to implement but by having multiply UIs it would mean that all the UIs wouldn't match meaning while some could have more information displayed other would appear to have less which could just further confuse the matter. The extra space in these cases might be wasted for non multi class or duel class but I think its unavoidable if you want it always shown.
-As for the positions of the main text or other information being on the left or right or elsewhere. That is totally up for debate and I have no point of view on if it should be one way or the other.
Im not sure if there was any other points I missed. I also am enjoying all the discussions so please keep it up and ill chime in whenever I feel appropriate or if there is a question
As for the default view, I figured it'd work like the current beta (i.e. remember the tab when switching between characters, but not when exiting/reentering the screen). That being said, having it remember in all cases could work too. Not sure which I like better to be honest.
Anyways, thanks for doing the mock ups and being indulgent in our requests!
Okay I see. I don't think it's possible to make the record screen remember anything, it's very likely always be the default first. Another point I made was making more space for scalable fonts.
I'm impressed with the mockups and think this 2nd mockup is the most impressive looking, there's only 2 changes I can think of off the top of my head that I'd make to this.
1) The arrow buttons for navigating the top row of items should point outwards instead of inwards. It doesn't make sense for the button on the right side to navigate left and it doesn't make sense for the button on the left to navigate right.
2) The Information button should be on the left end.
@00zim00 has inspired me with his mock-ups, so I hacked something together in paint just to get an idea of how it looks. When I get some time I'll have a closer look at @Dee 's tutorial and see if I can learn how to mod.
I find the 'Information' and accompanying filter tabs (combat stats; skills; abilities), superfluous. A better solution is to have all the information there to view at the flick of a mouse wheel, with each section being collapsible text like the journal quests. That vastly declutters the page. The 'stats' button sits over the 'Information' section; the 'Class' button sits over the 'Attributes' section and the 'Biography' button sits over the character portrait. the 'dual class' and 'level up' buttons sit directly under the flashing neon sign saying you can level up now. 'Reform party' should be on the left where it's always been so 'customise' has to go in the middle. That's my thought process anyway and, to me, it flows better.
If my modding attempt fails, I may have a request for you @Pecca , if you have the time on top of your own mod
Just a suggestion, but you could also make the flashing neon sign be the level up button. I don't know how many times I've clicked on it in my current game. It's bright and shiny and should do something when I click it.
Comments
Im more just showing that it can be done rather then expecting it to be changed. Maybe one of the many talented modders in the community could use it as inspiration. Im sure people will prefer some elements from one design then the other so you could mix and match some of the elements. Also as mentioned before the button names and text are just examples to show how the information could be presented.
-----------------------
The list of the changes from feedback:
1) Added the ability for collapsible text within the main text view were applicable
2) Removed the status effects as people didn't like the scrolling and it also allowed me to add information people felt was more important. You could always just have the status menu open on the left text area anyway which would show you a larger list of the effects achieving the same result.
3) The new UI has the issue of being unable know what level you are or how much experience you need when your are duel or multi-classed. I have attempted to give a dedicated space that allows upto 3 different classes to be shown with their level and experience. It was important to have enough space for upto 8million xp for when bg2 levels come into play. I have also removed the xp 'bar' as I found it kinda pointless as everyone should know basic maths but could be easily implemented if people really wanted.
4) One of the things I kept hearing on the forums is people wanted to be able to see there Lore and reputation modifier so they have also been permanently added to the main interface.
5) Fixed the left alignment of the Ability score list.
6) Changed font to BG font.. its not identical but best I could find.
7) Just did some clean up on the image overall.
Although the full reputation "name" would be helpful. I never remember if sh*t hits the fan at 6 or 7 or 8
If you have no space for rep nane how about a colour scheme? Varying shades of red to blue to white to indicate severity?
The color variations could help solve the reputation issue for sure. Plus for most of the things on the menu I would think a tool-top could pop up on mouse hover with its full name.
Even for the xp bar people were wanting to know how much xp to the next level. While i couldn't fit it in you could always just have a tool tip with that information to if you really wanted it. Plus there would still be expanded information in the menu tabs as well.
Love it. If the bars could fill up with a red color as you gain XP towards your next level(s) as it does in Neverwinter Nights 2, that would be just fantastic.
oh hey 1000th post, woo
As for lore and reputation, I think it has more to do with them not fitting well under any possible category for the text dump. It actually took me several days to find either in the current beta.
I would rather include Lore and Rep than move them into the text wall of lost info, unless you are going to replace them with something. This UI is denser, and more info-rich - that is essentially the point of reworking the UI at this point. I will say that Lore and Rep are the two stats I find hardest to locate in the current UI.
Saving throws are the other info that apply equally to all classes that would be handy to have in a top-level, all-in-one, view. These are also a little buried in the wall of text, but easier to find as the 5 stats together stand out visually when scrolling.
You could gain a little more space by replacing the dialog title 'Character Sheet' with the character name. This essentially the game UI that describes character, so name could be title enough.
Similarly, it is good seeing the triple-class form, but I am curious about the more familiar single-class case - which brings us to another space-saving feature: the 'dual class' button is a big disabled screen element unless the PC happens to be human, and has not dualed yet. It might be nice to move this into the space freed up when not playing a multi-class, and perhaps replace it with the original class info after dualing?
Minor nit - the stats appearing *above* the race/class/alignment info make them appear to be the defining part of the character, the most essential info about who they are. I would rather flip those, but that is a flavor thing.
Similarly, thinking as a left-to-right reader, I might to a left/right flip as well, putting the portrait top-left (visually easiest to identify/signature of character), followed by the race/class/stats/etc., and finally the break-out text info. This has the benefit of most interactions being with the scroll-bar now on a more familiar far-right if the information window, rather than somewhere in the middle.
Reverting a little on my previous comment, in favor of @pecca, the AC/THAC0/damage/HP are all easily visible (with break-out info!) on the screen you are replacing in the current (but not 2.0?) UI. I still prefer your direction
To me it comes down to this: "Do you want class and XP values to always be visible on the character screen, or do you want to select the proper tab to see that information?" I think for the character screen, that information should be always visible.
However, I'm still not convinced. If it was my decision, I'd make the main screen/default tab show current status effects (haste, free action, protection from fire, etc.). And in the mock-up at least, there is no "character overview" tab.
I see your point of having class/level at the top, but that could still be done while keeping that information always visible on the right hand panel. My main point is that I think if, like in the mock up, some information is going to always be visible on the character records screen, then I think class, level, and XP should be there.
But everyone has different preferences for UIs so its not like there's some objective truth about it.
So instead im only going to clarify the design elements and not try to sway the conversation.
-Information in the left panel was just added as a copy/paste from the 1.3 UI so it would have the same font. Its not indicative of the exact information that would be displayed by default. So the level information may or may not be there. It could display literally anything that you feel is more important such as has been mentioned the Status effects, Saving throws etc.
- I imagined that the left page would remember which tab/information you had displayed even when clicking out of the UI or into another character. In that sense it would therefore mean you could choose on a player by player bases what you think is the most important information to display. That does not mean you will be able to customize what is displayed I just mean that if for example you wanted the character Biography to always be displayed you would just need to have that tab always selected until you wanted to change it to a different tab.
- The question on how the levels would be displayed if you were a single class and not a duel or multi-class. My thought was that it would just display the one class and xp with the other 2 xp bars not displayed at all. Likewise for a non human race there Duel-Class button would still be present. The reason for this is two fold.
To keep the UI consistent between all classes and races, especially important when tabbing though companions in order to quickly compare information.
And to avoid having a second UI or even more that would change depending on class/race. Not only would it involve more work to implement but by having multiply UIs it would mean that all the UIs wouldn't match meaning while some could have more information displayed other would appear to have less which could just further confuse the matter. The extra space in these cases might be wasted for non multi class or duel class but I think its unavoidable if you want it always shown.
-As for the positions of the main text or other information being on the left or right or elsewhere. That is totally up for debate and I have no point of view on if it should be one way or the other.
Im not sure if there was any other points I missed. I also am enjoying all the discussions so please keep it up and ill chime in whenever I feel appropriate or if there is a question
Thanks for the clarification!
As for the default view, I figured it'd work like the current beta (i.e. remember the tab when switching between characters, but not when exiting/reentering the screen). That being said, having it remember in all cases could work too. Not sure which I like better to be honest.
Anyways, thanks for doing the mock ups and being indulgent in our requests!
I'm impressed with the mockups and think this 2nd mockup is the most impressive looking, there's only 2 changes I can think of off the top of my head that I'd make to this.
1) The arrow buttons for navigating the top row of items should point outwards instead of inwards. It doesn't make sense for the button on the right side to navigate left and it doesn't make sense for the button on the left to navigate right.
2) The Information button should be on the left end.
I find the 'Information' and accompanying filter tabs (combat stats; skills; abilities), superfluous. A better solution is to have all the information there to view at the flick of a mouse wheel, with each section being collapsible text like the journal quests. That vastly declutters the page. The 'stats' button sits over the 'Information' section; the 'Class' button sits over the 'Attributes' section and the 'Biography' button sits over the character portrait. the 'dual class' and 'level up' buttons sit directly under the flashing neon sign saying you can level up now. 'Reform party' should be on the left where it's always been so 'customise' has to go in the middle. That's my thought process anyway and, to me, it flows better.
If my modding attempt fails, I may have a request for you @Pecca , if you have the time on top of your own mod