Now we can't cancel the level up menu and return to the game without actually levelling up
JuliusBorisov
Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,754
I've made a bug report - http://redmine.beamdog.com/issues/21127 - but have got an answer it is an intended change....
I don't agree with it. Please, change it, it's such an important feature for BG players.
If you play with random HPs, and I usually play with random HPs, you may not like the HP roll you get and would like to wait till the next level up. Pre-beta we could always click ESC and return to the game to wait till the next level up for a new HP roll. Now, it's impossible.
I don't agree with it. Please, change it, it's such an important feature for BG players.
If you play with random HPs, and I usually play with random HPs, you may not like the HP roll you get and would like to wait till the next level up. Pre-beta we could always click ESC and return to the game to wait till the next level up for a new HP roll. Now, it's impossible.
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EDIT: unless @Bengoshi is telling us that if you wait until hitting the next level, the game will end up rerolling the first HD along with the new one. Is that a thing? And isn't it an exploit? Might as well reload anyway.
but looking at a roll, not like it and wait for the game to re-roll that roll later ... I mean, is definitely not power gaming, but still revising something the dice decided once - why wouldn't that be a bug if that's possible to do?
* Backing out of a Level Up is no longer possible via Escape
* Backing out of a Level Up (because it's not possible) disallows the "Feature" to withhold HP rolls till a later level up.
Lets be clear which part of this is considered a bug...the inability to back out, the inability to withhold HP rolls till a later leveling up, or both.
And if both, is it a bug that the withhold HP rolls isn't functional or a bug that it's there in the first place?
*I* am unclear on the answers to all three of the above points.
Regarding backing out of a level up: Keep in mind the technical difficulties involved in backing out of a level up: There's a potential there to lose Spell Selection, Proficiency Selection, Skill point Additions, etc. etc. This may be intentional functionality to avoid other issues or it may be an oversight / code issue. On the other hand it's a feature that's been available since before BG:EE was a thing so I personally agree with Dee on this that this should squarely be considered a bug. We'll have to figure out what the management decision is on all of this.
As to the HP feature: I guess I PERSONALLY (not a Beamdog Opinion) disagree with you Bengoshi. In a table top game, I don't allow players to roll their HP at a given level and then turn around and say "Na, never mind, I'm not leveling up at this point." Even if they choose to do so, I wouldn't let them re-roll their HP at a later date. Obviously "save/load abuse" is not possible "in real life" so there's always been that method of getting a better HP roll.
While I appreciate the "hybrid" this solution provides (there's a downside of having to play an entire level without leveling up which is balanced by a re-roll of HP), there's no rule or even house rule I've ever heard of in Tabletop that would account for that. While I don't disagree with the method and I certainly would not call it "power gamerish" to do this, I also don't think this was an intended feature of the game...more a side effect of being able to back out of the level up process.
Again, that's just my personal opinion, I'm sure @Dee will be getting better clarification on all of this and if it's found to be a bug, we'll get it reported.
Oh and @pointfiveo, you might consider the fact you may be jumping the gun a little on this one? I realize your low opinion of Beamdog and everything they've done with the games, but generally you typically want to wait till something is confirmed "wrong" before you spew "OMG THESE PEOPLE SUCK" all over a thread.
You tend to have a better chance of people listening to you more that way. Just...a friendly piece of advice...
Player: Ah! I leveled up! Katabrok the Invincible has gone up a level!
DM: Okay, roll for hit points.
(Player rolls, gets a 2)
Player: Er... a 2.
DM: No luck this time, eh? What's your CON score again?
Player: 16.
DM: So that's 2 bonus hit points. Okay, you add 4 to your total.
Player: But... but a FOUR? How is Katabrok going to wade through the orcish hordes with such a puny hit point progression?
DM: Dude, it was just this level. You might roll a 10 next time.
Player: I would like to propose an alternative solution.
DM: Here we go.
Player: How about this - I don't go up a level until I go up a level again.
DM: What?
Player: Yeah! Look - Katabrok doesn't level up at all for now. No better THAC0, no better saving throws, nothing. I just keep writing down my XP total until it's enough for him to go up 2 levels instead of just one.
DM: And why would you do that?
Player: Because then, when I roll the dice for hit points, I get to roll twice. Once for each new level I'm getting.
DM: But you've already rolled up for this new level and it was a 2.
Player: Yes, but we would ignore this roll and I would just roll again!
DM: How is that different than you just re-rolling the dice right now?
Player: Does that mean I can re-roll right now?
DM: No.
Player: Then let me re-roll later! Hey, I'm going to do all this adventuring without the benefits of a level up even though I have enough XP points to do so. It could be a trade off!
DM: So you don't want to put up with only 3 extra hit points, but you're willing to go on with ZERO extra hit points until much later?
Player: Well, yeah, but that's because I'd get another chance of rolling a 10 later!
DM: I didn't say you would get another chance.
Player: But I should!
(PLOT TWIST)
DM: Dude, no. This isn't Baldur's Gate.
EDIT: I hadn't seen Illydth's much more concise point. But still, there you go.
I could live without a cancel on the level-up if I could just consult the other pages during the level-up process. I suspect simply creating a cancel/undo function is actually simpler though, especially as we already had one (although who knows how many bugs are lurking in there already).
My preference for hit points is an entirely different feature request. I would prefer to roll all hit-points at character creation, and store those rolls, hidden, in the character info. That way, it would not matter how many levels you skip, you are getting the same hit points. It would be good to then inform the PC, at character generation time, what their hit-point total would be if they took all those hit rolls, possibly just as a %age of the theoretical max (cannot second-guess dual-classing). I would love to play without max hp at each level, but don't want to commit to a character who is going to roll too many low dice. It also adds to the dilemma when rolling up front - what balance should I pick between stats and max hp?
Similarly, I could just lock-in the max-hp option at character creation, and then switch up to Core rules, never looking back, for those games where I want the safety blanket.
Definitely a much more complex feature than we are looking at here though
I want to protected from save-scumming to 'fix' my bad rolls, by making that impossible
But I don't want to lose (too much of) the mystery of getting the big reveal of that hit die every level. Just a little insurance before I set out that I am not chasing a lost cause
"Hit--no, wait. Hit--no, wait! Hit--no, wait! Hit. Okay, stay."
"Sir, that's not how Blackjack works."
"ESCAPE!"
Anyway, I'm very pleased with the fact there can be an actual dialogue with the developers, as this small example shows: through "updates" on Redmine reports and through discussing them on the forum.
In fact, sometimes I have done exactly that (backing out of a level up) because I didn't know which spells I wanted to pick. Maybe I wanted to look at what my options were, or consult a character development guide I had created. Or perhaps I wanted to check which weapon proficiency I should pick next, in order to reach my goals.
The point is, there are valid reasons for wanting to back out of a levelup. That it allows you to reroll HP is an unintended consequence. Sure, people can use it to cheat. My argument for that is that the console is easier. Or a character editor.
In other words, backing out of a levelup has some legitimate uses, and some cheating uses. If somebody wants to use it to cheat, I'd advise them to save themselves the trouble and use a character editor to get the stats they really want. Therefore, don't decide whether to include this "feature" or not based upon whether it can be abused. Decide to include it or not based upon whether it has utility to legitimate players.
Also bear in mind that BG2 is a single player or co op game. Someone ending up with more HP than they should because they abused the system is hardly going to cause an international incident.