XP Cap speculation and dual class possibilities
Elendar
Member Posts: 831
So I have been looking at the possible dual class combinations with the speculations about the XP cap with SoD(which many believe will be around 500K and possibly as high as 600K) and found some pretty interesting results.
Fighter(9) ---> Mage (500K XP)
It takes 250K for the fighter class to get to level 9, at which time dualing over to a mage would take another 250K to reactivate the fighter class. So if its hard capped exactly at 500K, it is possible to complete this combination by the end of SoD. However, it would be difficult to stop at exactly 250K so hopefully there will be a slightly higher XP cap than 500K to make this combination likely.
Fighter(9) ---> Thief (470K XP)
Very easily doable if the XP cap is approximately 500K as this combination only requires 470K in order to complete, as it takes 250K for the fighter class and 220K to get to level 10 thief.
Fighter(9) ---> Cleric (700K XP)
This excellent combination is unlikely to be achieved in SoD unless the XP cap is considerably higher than what has been speculated, as it would take 250K for the fighter class than and additional 450K to reach level 10 with cleric, so the level cap would have to be above 700K.
Fighter(9) ---> Druid (375K XP)
This particular dual class should be easily achieved in SoD as it only takes 125K xp for a druid to get to level 10, a total of 375K.
Ranger(9) ---> Cleric (750K XP)
Very unlikely to be doable as the Ranger class takes 300K to get to level 9 and as stated above it would take 450K to reach level 10 cleric, requiring a 750K cap. You'd have to take the Ranger class at a considerably lower level to do this one.
Thief (10) ---> Mage (535K XP)
This combination would take a total of 535K in order to reactivate the first class. Obviously you could easily do it at level 9 thief instead, but if you're the type that likes the Swashbuckler kit for this choice then level 10 would be more optimal.
Thief(10) ---> Cleric (610K XP)
While once again you could use a lower level thief to obtain this combination, Swashbuckler is still a fairly popular choice for those who don't care about backstabbing, so I listed it anyways. This combination would required 610K xp to reactivate the thief portion, so it may be possible if the XP cap is above 600K.
I am hoping that the XP cap is at least around 550K so that many of these dual class combinations would be possible and a nice way to finish up SoD and move onto BG2 with those particular characters. I am rather doubting that it will be high enough to allow Fighter/Cleric dual, though it may not be such a bad thing to dual that at level 9 anyways and be ready to regain your fighter class early in BG2.
edit:
Also, sorry to my fellow chronic restarters whom may end up abandoning a current BG1 in order to take advantage of the dual class combinations this post has pointed out may be possible.
Fighter(9) ---> Mage (500K XP)
It takes 250K for the fighter class to get to level 9, at which time dualing over to a mage would take another 250K to reactivate the fighter class. So if its hard capped exactly at 500K, it is possible to complete this combination by the end of SoD. However, it would be difficult to stop at exactly 250K so hopefully there will be a slightly higher XP cap than 500K to make this combination likely.
Fighter(9) ---> Thief (470K XP)
Very easily doable if the XP cap is approximately 500K as this combination only requires 470K in order to complete, as it takes 250K for the fighter class and 220K to get to level 10 thief.
Fighter(9) ---> Cleric (700K XP)
This excellent combination is unlikely to be achieved in SoD unless the XP cap is considerably higher than what has been speculated, as it would take 250K for the fighter class than and additional 450K to reach level 10 with cleric, so the level cap would have to be above 700K.
Fighter(9) ---> Druid (375K XP)
This particular dual class should be easily achieved in SoD as it only takes 125K xp for a druid to get to level 10, a total of 375K.
Ranger(9) ---> Cleric (750K XP)
Very unlikely to be doable as the Ranger class takes 300K to get to level 9 and as stated above it would take 450K to reach level 10 cleric, requiring a 750K cap. You'd have to take the Ranger class at a considerably lower level to do this one.
Thief (10) ---> Mage (535K XP)
This combination would take a total of 535K in order to reactivate the first class. Obviously you could easily do it at level 9 thief instead, but if you're the type that likes the Swashbuckler kit for this choice then level 10 would be more optimal.
Thief(10) ---> Cleric (610K XP)
While once again you could use a lower level thief to obtain this combination, Swashbuckler is still a fairly popular choice for those who don't care about backstabbing, so I listed it anyways. This combination would required 610K xp to reactivate the thief portion, so it may be possible if the XP cap is above 600K.
I am hoping that the XP cap is at least around 550K so that many of these dual class combinations would be possible and a nice way to finish up SoD and move onto BG2 with those particular characters. I am rather doubting that it will be high enough to allow Fighter/Cleric dual, though it may not be such a bad thing to dual that at level 9 anyways and be ready to regain your fighter class early in BG2.
edit:
Also, sorry to my fellow chronic restarters whom may end up abandoning a current BG1 in order to take advantage of the dual class combinations this post has pointed out may be possible.
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Comments
I'm thinking about going the Berserker(9) ---> Mage route simply because I've never really gotten very far with any variation of a Fighter/Mage... And yes, it will be rather late in SoD by the time the Berserker portion is reactivated, but thats fine. Except for the beginning of SoD, my character at that point would do well enough as a middling/high level (high level for BG1) mage. And still have his party members for support.
edit:
Also this would probably be the second character I would bring through SoD as I plan to continue on with my Cavalier first and then do an evil party run with the Berserker. Though as its getting closer to the release of SoD maybe I should focus on actually getting that Cavalier to Sarevok....
I'm gonna assume the following tables are correct (too lazy to look up my D&D books, and it's harder to reference).
http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Experience_tables#Baldur.27s_Gate_II_and_Baldur.27s_Gate_II:_EE
Let's list the classes' current level cap (at 161k), the XP required for level 12, and the XP required for level 13.
Class: - Current cap: - Level 12: - Level 13:
Fighter - Level 8 - 1000k - 1250k (includes Barbarians)
Ranger - Level 8 - 1200k - 1500k (includes Paladins)
Cleric - Level 8 - 900k - 1125k (includes Monks)
Druid - Level 10 - 300k - 750k
Mage - Level 9 - 750k - 1125k (includes Sorcerers and Shamans)
Thief - Level 10 - 440k - 660k (includes Bards)
Ok, so Thieves can reach level 13 at 660k XP, so we know for sure that the cap will be below 660k XP. We also know that more than only the Druid class can reach level 12, so the cap will be at least 440k. A cap between 440k and 660k allows for multiple classes to reach level 12, without any class reaching level 13.
Note that this means both Druid and Thief gain 2 additional levels. Mages reach level 11 at 375k, and level 12 at 750k. Thus, they will reach level 11, 2 levels higher as well.
The other classes all reach level 10 in between 440k and 660k (Clerics at 450k, Fighters at 500k, and Rangers at 600k). Considering that if they reach these levels, they gain 2 levels over the previous cap, and if they do not reach these levels, they remain as much as 3 levels behind on some other classes, I consider it very likely that they'll be able to reach these levels.
Thus, it will be very likely that the cap is somewhere in between 600k and 660k. It can be lower (as low as 440k), but certainly not higher.
@Elendar: As for dualclassing so late, SoD is a different beast than BG2. Remember that since this is the XP cap for SoD, it's probably set up so that you'll reach these caps near the end of the game (or not at all, if you skip a lot of content).
You're making the assumption that XP in SoD will come as fast as BG2, and I think you are wrong.
While it may not take you all that long to catch up on Dualclassing in BG2, and making the "lost" XP on the first class insignificant soon enough, it'll probably take most of the game to do so in SoD!
You may be better off looking for dualclass options that become possible after 650k-ish XP, rather than before.
Perhaps. I certainly don't think it will be as fast as BG2, but if you recall back in SoA, before having ToB installed, you could get to the level cap by the time you were about halfway through the Underdark if you did every little subquest and such. And I tend to be an absolute completionist with these games and explore every nook and cranny, despite already knowing where the best stuff is.
If Beamdog followed the same kind of thing they did in SoA then it is possible that you could reach the level cap by about halfway through. Wont know for sure until it is out, I suppose. But even so, if you're planning on playing through the whole saga anyways then its well worth dualing during SoD even if you don't end up reactivating your first class until near the end, or not even until BG2 as is likely in the case of Fighter->Cleric.
I very much doubt it would take all that long at all to get 90K xp to get the mage part of a Berserker->Mage to level 8.. and playing as a decent leveled mage throughout SoD should be enjoyable enough that you wont miss the fighter portion anyways.
If you dual early sod the primary class is near useless until really at the end of sod... not sure many players will go for that first time through.
I think it makes more sense for first time players to dual earlier, say level 5-7 range, rather than later. You get your primary back mid sod and can enjoy the fruits of both throughout. Either that or multi class...
Nevertheless, play however you prefer. It's your game after all.
For the Fighter--> Mage, the ideal dualing levels are 7, 9 or 13.
Level 6 would be okay for dualing because that is when you gain a proficiency point, but going forward into BG2 your THACO would be so low that you might as well not have started out as a fighter at all. Level 7 would be better, though, because you gain 1/2 APR
Level 9 nets you another proficiency point, gives you decent enough THACO to let you still hit things in ToB and still reach level 30 as a mage. If you wait until level 10, then you better not get even a single xp point above 500K or the highest level mage you'll get to is 29, and level 10 isn't particularly anything special for a fighter.
Level 13 nets you yet another 1/2 APR and proficiency point (at 12) and would still let you get to level 28 as a mage by the end of ToB. But such a late dual can be rather annoying, as it would then take another 1.5 million XP in order for you to reach high enough level as a mage to regain the first class.
Which is why I think level 9 is the best level for a Fighter to dual. However, someone could just go ahead and wait until BG2, where they would be level 10 and dual over and still get to level 29 mage and only need 375K to regain their fighter class.
For the fighter/cleric dual, it probably would be best to do just that and wait until BG2 as clerics need 675K to reach level 11 to reactivate their fighter skills.
If you're wanting to do the thief/mage dual then I happen to agree with you that you're better off doing it probably as soon as you hit 100 in Find Traps and Open Locks. I put thief 10 in there for those that prefer the Swashbuckler, though, because at level 10 the Swashbuckler gains another -1 bonus to their Armor Class, making it an ideal time to dual over.
Going 9 levels in Fighter costs 250k, already into SoD. 10 levels in Mage also costs 250k, so that would make 500k total. It's currently not guaranteed that you will reach that in SoD (but likely, see my post above). However, if you can reach that in SoD, it will most definitely be quite a bit in.
For Thief to Mage, level 7 is obviously a solid option, as you can reach Mage 8 before SoD, thereby regaining your Thief abilities during the later parts of BG1.
Switching at level 8 means you'd need a total of 205k XP to gain your Thief abilities back. While not very far into SoD, it means you'll be doing a solid part of BG1 without your Thief abilities. Switching at level 9 requires a total of 360k XP, but has the same problems of doing a decent part of BG1 without your Thief abilities.
Switching at level 10 may be easier. You could choose to continue as a Thief for the rest of BG1, and dualclass when you enter SoD, which would mean you'd need 485k XP total, which will be pretty late into SoD.
It's probably best to check your Cavalier's XP at key points, so you know at what point you'd gain your first class back at various dualclass combinations.
So, assuming an XP cap of 600K, then about 1/6th of that is needed to get to the point where your character is fairly useful again.
For example, if you go Thief 8 or 9 -> Mage, it means you'll run into the XP cap during BG1 and have to do the rest of BG1 without getting your Thief abilities back.
EDIT: Also, I seem to recall that if you dualclass, your first class' XP was reset to the bare minimum needed for that class, to minimize cap issues. Am I mistaken?
/me goes to install the game on this PC to test.
Switching at level 10 for fighter, which is likely the highest level they will obtain in SoD, would be easier and could be done in BG2, leaving you simply as a fighter for the entirety of BG1.
As a thief it certainly wouldn't be a good idea to have such a long extended dual class if you're planning on having CHARNAME as the only thief in your party though, so an earlier dual probably would be the best for that.
So it's BG1 -> SoD -> SoA -> ToB, each with their own XP cap.
And as such, I recommended that if you go Thief 10 -> Mage, you remain a Thief throughout the BG1 portion (wasting only 1k XP), and dualclassing to Mage the moment you enter SoD. You'd still have to farm 375k XP to get your thieving abilites back, which will take a solid part of SoD (as that would total 536k XP).
It may not even be possible to get your thieving abilities back during SoD, depending on the cap. (Though I think it will, as I assume the cap will be somewhere between 600k and 660k.)
I'm not sure what they will do as far as that... Bioware made it so that installing ToB raised the XP cap when playing through SoA so who knows if Beamdog will do the same or make you wait until after Sarevok for it.
Also, will the xp you gain after 161K still continue to add up and be added when the level cap is raised as I think it works now if you import into BG2?
For this test, I considered Fighter 7 -> Mage 8. Fighter 7 requires 64k XP, whereas Mage 8 requires 90k XP. Perfectly doable in BG1.
However, I gave the character a total of 100k XP as a Fighter, and then leveled him up to 7. With 100k XP, there should only be 61k XP remaining for the Mage, not enough for level 8!
I then Dualclassed to a Mage. The character record then told me I had gathered 64k XP as a Fighter!
When I tried to give myself another 100k XP, I got 97k XP. 64k + 97k = 161k. Ergo, you do not have to worry about gathering a little bit of spare XP before Dualclassing, as all XP exceeding the current level requirement is removed. (You do of course need to farm that XP a second time, so you don't want to wait too long, but it doesn't provide any capping problems.)
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I did notice a second thing, that may interest you if you want to get Grandmastery ASAP:
During character creation, I gave the Fighter 2 pips in Bastard Sword (and 2 in Sword and Board style). When I leveled the fighter, I raised his pips in Bastard Sword to 4. When I dualclassed to mage, I placed a pip in Daggers. When I leveled the Mage from 1 to 8, I got one more pip, which I could immediately assign to Bastard Swords!
The pip is given at Mage Level 6, at which level you don't have access to your fighter skills yet, so you shouldn't be able to assign it to Bastard Swords Grandmastery. However, if you level him from 1 to 8 at once, he gains access to his Fighter abilities before applying the level 6 pip.
Thus, if you don't mind being a little cheezy, and abuse the errors in the engine, level your fighter to 7 (getting 4 pips in one weapon), then dual to mage (placing your pip elsewhere), then level your mage to 5. From then on, do NOT level your mage, until he has at least 90k XP as a Mage. When you level your mage up at that point, you will be able to place a 5th pip in that weapon.
Yeah, I've known about that little trick for awhile but never really make use of it. Once you regain your fighter abilities then you'll be able to put any proficiency points that you earn as a mage to gain that grand mastery. So even if you don't bother using that trick, when your mage reaches level 12 you'll be able to put that point into the Bastard Swords.
It might be a good trick to use to gain enough skill points to do something like getting Grand Mastery in flails, for Flail of the Ages, plus 2 points in Scimitar for Belm plus 2 points in two weapon fighting.
Overall, I'm not too worried about dual-classing that won't complete under the SoD XP cap from a viability standpoint, as the nature of the leveling requirements means that you should hit a reasonable degree of competence before a long. A Fighter 9->Mage, for instance, will probably have 4th level spells by the time they're a quarter of the way through SoD, which is plenty good enough to ruin someone's day. That said, it still might be annoying from a conceptual standpoint (and I still favor multi-classes overall partly for that reason).
Another interesting thing to think about is how SoD acts as an extended bridge for later dual-classes. It seems like Fighters will still be only halfway to level 13 at best, so that dual-class will still be a bit painful, but someone who wanted to dual-class at Thief 13 for the higher backstab modifier will probably be within spitting distance by the end of SoD. Reactivating your Thief abilities will still take somewhere in the neighborhood of 1.5 million XP, but you can probably hit that around Chapter 4, maybe even in Chapter 2/3, depending on how long you want to spend questing before Spellhold. Maybe it's time I dusted off that Shadowdancer->Fighter concept I've had sitting on the shelf for a while...
PS: I still favor Fighter 7 as the dual-class point for cleric/druid duals, as waiting until 9 doesn't get you any extra proficiency points overall, and the difference between two levels of Fighter HP and two levels of Cleric HP is pretty small.
Fighter 10 is 500k XP, so if I'm guessing correctly that the XP cap is above 600k (so Paladins and Rangers can level to 10 as well), you'd be able to reach level 8 Mage during SoD, maybe even level 9. I thought it was the case, but Elendar made me doubt, so I tested to confirm this was the case.
Bg1 original without TotSC XP CAP was 89k
bg1 original with TotSC XP CAP was 161k (raised the CAP on the original game)
bg2 original without ToB XP CAP was 2,950k
bg2 original with ToB XP CAP was 8,000k (raised the CAP on the original game)
So I don't think the question of SoD raising the cap on bg1ee is that unreasonable because that is how it has always been.
All this said, I feel like SoD probably isn't going to increase the BG1EE XP cap. And I'm fine with that anyway.
So, no, it's not crazy to assume that the base game's cap will be raised, but it's also not crazy to assume otherwise. Heck, I'm not even sure if they are allowed to raise the base game's cap, considering that's part of original content.
Besides, some people actually enjoy solving puzzles.
In SoD fighter 9 to thief or druid 10 maybe, but I doubt 9 to mage or cleric 10.
Ps. What do you think, should I dual him at 9th or 12th level?