@helmo1977: I'd say 9. I wouldn't recommend 12 to anyone, it just seems like an odd* choice for dual. For late duals, 13 for the +APR is prolly a wiser (and more common) choice, but I never bother with late duals anyways.
The thing with 2nd edition XP tables is that the XP roughly doubles for each level, up to a certain point, and then remains the same for all remaining levels.
For example, for a fighter, this cutoff point is at level 9.
Level 1 to level 9 costs 250k XP.
Level 9 to level 10 costs 250k XP.
Level 10 to level 11 costs 250k XP.
Level 11 to level 12 costs 250k XP.
For a cleric, this cutoff point is also at level 9.
Level 1 to level 9 costs 225k XP.
Level 9 to level 10 costs 225k XP.
Level 10 to level 11 costs 225k XP.
Level 11 to level 12 costs 225k XP.
Let's forget for a moment that it's 25k XP less for a cleric, and assume that it's 250k for both classes. Not 100% accurate, but it's easier to drive my point across.
If you spend 9 levels in Fighter, and then dual to Cleric, once you've reached Cleric level 9, you will always be 1 level lower than when you would be a full Cleric. If you'd take less levels in Fighter, you'd be a little bit less behind, say a level about half the time. It's not going to have a major impact on your Cleric progression to take 9 levels in Fighter.
But if you take 10 levels in Fighter, you'll always be 2 levels behind in Cleric, 11 levels in Fighter is 3 levels behind, 12 levels in Fighter is 4 levels behind, and 13 levels in Fighter is 5 levels behind.
Whereas taking 2 to 9 levels in Fighter only scale a bit when your Cleric levels up (more Fighter levels will cause your Cleric a little later), each level above 9 costs you an entire Cleric level.
(Actually, it'll cost slightly more than a Cleric level, because Fighter levels are slightly more expensive, but it gets the idea across.)
Thus, beyond the cut-off point (9 for Clerics, Fighters, Monks, Paladins and Rangers, 11 for Bards, Mages, Shamans, Sorcerers and Thieves, 12 for Druids) you have to ask yourself: "Is each additional level worth it to be 1 level behind in my new class?"
To be honest, I'm not sure the couple extra hit points for dualing from 9th level instead of 7th are worth the trouble. 7th already gives you the extra attack and the ability to grandmaster. Actual grandmastery doesn't come until 8th for thieves and priests, or 12th for mages, but that's not a very big deal (especially for thieves and priests).
<blockquote class="Quote"> <div class="QuoteAuthor"><a href="/profile/helmo1977">helmo1977</a> said:</div> <div class="QuoteText">I have started a game with my main character a fighter (berserker), but I will dual him at 9th or 12th level to a cleric (as I have no cleric in my group)
Ps. What do you think, should I dual him at 9th or 12th level?</div> </blockquote>
Dual him at 7th, no reason to go to 9th on a cleric.
Or better yet, don't dual to a cleric. You'll always be ~30% behind what a real warrior can do due to APR limitations.
helmo1977 said:
I have started a game with my main character a fighter (berserker), but I will dual him at 9th or 12th level to a cleric (as I have no cleric in my group)
Ps. What do you think, should I dual him at 9th or 12th level?
Dual him at 7th, no reason to go to 9th on a cleric.
Or better yet, don't dual to a cleric. You'll always be ~30% behind what a real warrior can do due to APR limitations.
9th gains you another proficiency point and slightly better THACO. It really depends on just what kind of character you want. If you want it primarily to be a cleric, then he will make an excellent cleric. Note that Anomen in BG2 already fulfills this role, however. Also, if you go to 9th level as a fighter and dual class to a cleric, you will not regain your fighter abilities back until BG2.
To be honest, I'm not sure the couple extra hit
points for dualing from 9th level instead of 7th are worth the trouble.
7th already gives you the extra attack and the ability to grandmaster.
Actual grandmastery doesn't come until 8th for thieves and priests, or
12th for mages, but that's not a very big deal (especially for thieves
and priests).
As stated before, the main point is the extra proficiency point and a slightly better THACO score. For a Cleric it may not mean a whole lot as they have a decent THACO table but for a mage or thief its rather important, plus having that extra prof point allows you to more easily dual wield a good weapon in your offhand for good bonuses, such as Belm/Kundane or Crom Faeyr
A multiclass is more of a mix between two classes where as a dual class is primarily focused on their second class pick with a bit of the first added in for utility and/or combat ability.
The thing with 2nd edition XP tables is that the XP roughly doubles for each level, up to a certain point, and then remains the same for all remaining levels.
For example, for a fighter, this cutoff point is at level 9.
Level 1 to level 9 costs 250k XP.
Level 9 to level 10 costs 250k XP.
Level 10 to level 11 costs 250k XP.
Level 11 to level 12 costs 250k XP.
For a cleric, this cutoff point is also at level 9.
Level 1 to level 9 costs 225k XP.
Level 9 to level 10 costs 225k XP.
Level 10 to level 11 costs 225k XP.
Level 11 to level 12 costs 225k XP.
Let's forget for a moment that it's 25k XP less for a cleric, and assume that it's 250k for both classes. Not 100% accurate, but it's easier to drive my point across.
If you spend 9 levels in Fighter, and then dual to Cleric, once you've reached Cleric level 9, you will always be 1 level lower than when you would be a full Cleric. If you'd take less levels in Fighter, you'd be a little bit less behind, say a level about half the time. It's not going to have a major impact on your Cleric progression to take 9 levels in Fighter.
But if you take 10 levels in Fighter, you'll always be 2 levels behind in Cleric, 11 levels in Fighter is 3 levels behind, 12 levels in Fighter is 4 levels behind, and 13 levels in Fighter is 5 levels behind.
Whereas taking 2 to 9 levels in Fighter only scale a bit when your Cleric levels up (more Fighter levels will cause your Cleric a little later), each level above 9 costs you an entire Cleric level.
(Actually, it'll cost slightly more than a Cleric level, because Fighter levels are slightly more expensive, but it gets the idea across.)
Thus, beyond the cut-off point (9 for Clerics, Fighters, Monks, Paladins and Rangers, 11 for Bards, Mages, Shamans, Sorcerers and Thieves, 12 for Druids) you have to ask yourself: "Is each additional level worth it to be 1 level behind in my new class?"
Great post, but I think you miss one thing: if you are going to play until the very end (tob) you get more levels than are really useful (a 22 level cleric is the same as a 27 one, for example, except while casting a few spells that dont cap at 20th level, while a 13 th level fighter is better than a 9 th level one). You get more being a 13 fighter/22 cleric than a 9 fighter/27 cleric. The only problem is that you character will be underpowered along a good chunk of the game, which is not fun.
helmo1977 said:
I have started a game with my main character a fighter (berserker), but I will dual him at 9th or 12th level to a cleric (as I have no cleric in my group)
Ps. What do you think, should I dual him at 9th or 12th level?
Dual him at 7th, no reason to go to 9th on a cleric.
Or better yet, don't dual to a cleric. You'll always be ~30% behind what a real warrior can do due to APR limitations.
I need and want a cleric in my group, because I am just taking Dorn, Neera, Hexxatt and the monk (I never remember his name) with me
Great post, but I think you miss one thing: if you are going to play until the very end (tob) you get more levels than are really useful (a 22 level cleric is the same as a 27 one, for example, except while casting a few spells that dont cap at 20th level, while a 13 th level fighter is better than a 9 th level one). You get more being a 13 fighter/22 cleric than a 9 fighter/27 cleric. The only problem is that you character will be underpowered along a good chunk of the game, which is not fun.
As I said, you have to ask yourself: "Is it worth falling one level behind?" This doesn't automatically mean No. It can mean Yes. If you really care about the stats you will have at the end of the game, you may very well consider that a few levels in your second class don't matter.
But then, do you really still get a lot out of those extra levels from your first class? A level 13 Fighter has a THAC0 of 8. Clerics get that THAC0 at level 19, so if your Cleric is Epic level, the Fighter's THAC0 is useless. Fighers receive 3 hp per level, where Clerics only receive 2, so you'd gain 4 extra HP this way... except you're 4-5 levels behind, which causes you to lose 8-10 HP from those Cleric levels, clearly a net loss. So the question is that APR vs all those Cleric goodies.
Also, "stats at the end of the game" is not something you should strive too hard for. At the end of the game, you're done playing, so you no longer benefit from said stats. You benefit from them during the game, thus, it is generally not very wise to cripple yourself during the game to get the best stats at the end of the game.
Great post, but I think you miss one thing: if you are going to play until the very end (tob) you get more levels than are really useful (a 22 level cleric is the same as a 27 one, for example, except while casting a few spells that dont cap at 20th level, while a 13 th level fighter is better than a 9 th level one). You get more being a 13 fighter/22 cleric than a 9 fighter/27 cleric. The only problem is that you character will be underpowered along a good chunk of the game, which is not fun.
As I said, you have to ask yourself: "Is it worth falling one level behind?" This doesn't automatically mean No. It can mean Yes. If you really care about the stats you will have at the end of the game, you may very well consider that a few levels in your second class don't matter.
But then, do you really still get a lot out of those extra levels from your first class? A level 13 Fighter has a THAC0 of 8. Clerics get that THAC0 at level 19, so if your Cleric is Epic level, the Fighter's THAC0 is useless. Fighers receive 3 hp per level, where Clerics only receive 2, so you'd gain 4 extra HP this way... except you're 4-5 levels behind, which causes you to lose 8-10 HP from those Cleric levels, clearly a net loss. So the question is that APR vs all those Cleric goodies.
Also, "stats at the end of the game" is not something you should strive too hard for. At the end of the game, you're done playing, so you no longer benefit from said stats. You benefit from them during the game, thus, it is generally not very wise to cripple yourself during the game to get the best stats at the end of the game.
I just did some experimenting with this in BG2 to check whether or not this statement is true.
All the characters tested have the same stats. 18/00 strength.
At level 20, a cleric with 1 point in two weapon fighting and 1 point in maces and dual wield two magical maces with a THACO of 7 in main hand and 11 in the offhand with a nonmagical mace and nonmagic warhammer. Also has 112 hit points and only 2 APR.
Dualed at level 13, a fighter/cleric with equal experience has a THACO of 2 in the main hand and 8 in the off hand with the same weapons. He is however only level 14 in cleric, 6 cleric levels behind that of the pure cleric. He has 140 hit points and a whopping 4 APR. He has grandmastery in maces , 2 pips in warhammers and 2 pips in two weapon fighting.
Dualed at level 9, a fighter/cleric with equal experience has a THACO of 4 in the main hand and 10 in the off hand with the same weapons. He is however only level 17 in cleric, 3 levels behind that of the pure cleric. Again 140 hps and 7/2 attacks with grandmastery in maces, 2 pips in warhammer and 2 pips in two weapon fighting.
Dualed at level 7.... THACO of 2 MH and 8 OH , level 19 in cleric, 7/2 attacks. Only one class behind a pure cleric. 140 hps, grandmastery in maces 2 pips in each warhammer and two weapon fighting again.
It seems to me that taking at least 7 levels in fighter is worth it as you only lose 64,000 xp , which in reality isnt being an entire level behind a pure class cleric as getting that small an amount of xp in BG2 is nothing at all. You basically lose nothing as a cleric and gain quite a bit of THACO and 1/2 APR and about 30 hps.
When you reach the level cap for ToB, you will have lost one level of cleric, however, as a dual at level 7 can only go up to level 39 cleric. Which is basically nothing. A 40 level pure cleric will have a THACO of 5 in main and 9 in off hand. A fighter (7)/Cleric (39) has a THACO of 0 in main hand and 2 in off hand, as his proficiency points will have been able to eventually get 3 points in two weapon fighting and grandmastery in warhammers. A 13 fighter ---> cleric will have the same THACO but 4 APR and can only get to level 38 cleric.
So in mid game you'd be behind quite a number of cleric levels with dualing at level 13 or even 9, but dualing at 7 you'd be only very slightly behind a pure cleric and have much better fighting ability. And in the very end, a level 40 cleric has nothing that a level 38 or 39 cleric doesn't also have.
Dualing at 7 seems to be the best in terms of gaining raw power from the Fighter class but not really losing anything at all in your cleric class except being a measly 64K xp behind a pure cleric.
One other factor that is mostly brushed over in this discussion is the amount of time spent relatively underpowered while building the second class to regain the powers of the first class.
Granted the first few levels are extremely quick given the experience amounts available in BG2 but overcoming cleric levels from 8 to 14 (to get back your fighter 13 skills) requires over a million experience and for much of that time your cleric wanna be warrior is dependent on the rest of the party to support him - perhaps not an issue from a gameplay standpoint but it does kind of suck from an RP standpoint.
The question then becomes just how much do you value an extra point here and there vs having a PC that carries his own weight (or better) for a greater percentage of the game. (by dualing at a lower level)
A pureclass Cleric is obviously weaker than Fighter -> Cleric, as the pureclass lacks both weapon proficiencies and exceptional strength. Testing this with 18/00 is not exactly fair, as not everyone is lucky enough to roll that while still having decent other stats, but it's obvious that the ability to Grandmaster, as well as the ability to have exceptional strength in the first place is a large boon to melee combat. Even Fighter 2 -> Cleric already provides a lot of benefits.
Also, there seems to be something wrong with your levels.
A level 20 cleric has between 2700k and 2950k xp.
A level 13 fighter has 1250k xp, a level 14 cleric has between 1350k and 1575k xp, for a total between 2600k and 2825k xp.
A level 9 fighther has 250k xp, a level 17 cleric has between 2025k and 2250k xp, for a total between 2275k and 2500k.
A level 7 fighter has 64k xp, a level 19 cleric has between 2475k and 2700k xp, for a total between 2539k and 2764k xp.
I assume you took the "2700k" xp as the base level, but in this case, the level 9 fighter should be a level 18 cleric, not level 17. Also note that the level 7 fighter is only 64k XP short of reaching level 20 cleric, and the level 9 fighter is only 25k short of reaching level 19 cleric. So it's not really fair to say that they are 1 and 2 levels behind, as you arbitrarily took an XP amount where the pureclass cleric just leveled.
But it's the way THAC0 works. Each class has it's own THAC0, and if you are dual or multiclassed, the game uses your best THAC0. They don't stack. In the Dualclass case, you use your Fighter THAC0 (which doesn't improve), until your Cleric THAC0 catches up, from which point you use your Cleric THAC0.
Fighters have +1 THAC0 per 1 level. Clerics have +2 THAC0 per 3 levels.
A 4th level Cleric has a THAC0 of 18, equal to a 3rd level Figher. A 7th level Cleric has a THAC0 of 16, equal to a 5th level Figher. A 10th level Cleric has a THAC0 of 14, equal to a 7th level Figher. A 13th level Cleric has a THAC0 of 12, equal to a 9th level Figher. A 16th level Cleric has a THAC0 of 10, equal to a 11th level Figher. A 19th level Cleric has a THAC0 of 8, equal to a 13th level Figher.
You pointed out in your above list that the level 9 Fighter has a poorer THAC0 than both the level 7 Fighter and the level 13 Fighter. That's really a snap shot moment, as 25k XP later, the level 9 Fighter has the same THAC0 as the level 7 and 13 fighters.
In the long run, 7 levels in fighter are obviously worth it, as 64k XP is insignificant, and it nets you 0.5 APR and up to 14 extra hp. Your THAC0 is 14, which requires Cleric 10 to match. Clerics also conveniently get a pip to place in Grandmastery at level 8 (for a total of 171k xp).
9 levels in fighter costs you 250k XP total, placing you just over a level behind on the pureclass cleric, and just under a level behind on the level 7 fighter. You need 250k xp to get that final pip for Grandmastery, which is slower than the level 7 fighter at 171k xp. However, you do receive 2 extra pips while catching up as a Cleric, whereas the level 7 fighter only receives 1 extra pip (next to the one going into Grandmaster), so you'll be a pip ahead of the level 7 fighter option. Nice if you want to be proficient with different weapons, useless otherwise.
9 levels in fighter does net you +2 THAC0 and a bunch of hp (up to 20 + 2x con bonus) while your cleric is catching up, but once you hit Cleric level 9, the hp advantage shrinks to up to 4 (and since you're a level behind, up to 2 is more accurate), and once you hit Cleric level 13, the THAC0 advantage has disappeared. You'll be a better Fighter while leveling your Cleric side up to 13, but after that, all advantages have disappeared, and you're basically a level behind. (Note that if you actually needed Fighter pips to spend on Mastery and above, then this option would be a lot stronger, as the level 7 fighter option would no longer grant you Grandmastery.)
Obviously, the level 13 fighter takes this a bit further, providing an additional 12 hp, 4 THAC0, and 0.5 APR over the level 9 fighter, as well as an extra proficiency pip... Except that the level 9 fighter has already reached level 12 cleric, and is pretty close to level 13 already, so those 12 hp are more like 4 hp, and by the time your level 13 fighter finally reaches level 14 cleric at 2600k xp, your level 9 fighter is already a level 18 cleric, at which the level 13 fighter is actually 4 hp behind, and the level 9 fighter is only half a level away from 19, at which point, the THAC0s become equal.
You gotta ask yourself, is having that 0.5 APR really so great that it's worth taking so long to dualclass, being 4-5 levels behind in a spellcasting class (that's a lot of spells you're missing out on)?
Also, I don't know if THAC0 advances past level 20 (I've tried searching for proper tables, but for some reason, I can't find any class tables anywhere that list THAC0. Experience, Hit Dice, APR bonuses, Weapon pips, Spells, Backstab multipliers, those are all easy to find properly charted, but none of those tables list THAC0 for some odd reason.), but if it does, that means the level 13 fighter will also be at least 2 and sometimes 4 THAC0 behind on the level 7 and 9 fighters.
The only downsides about 7th level and 9th level dualclassing, are the game caps. If you swap at 7th level Fighter, you'll get to 7th level Cleric in BG1, but need 174k XP to reach level 8 (which is not achievable in BG1 unless SoD raises the cap). If you swap at 9th level Fighter, you probably an get to 9th level Cleric in SoD, but the 700k XP you need to reach Cleric 10 is surely out, as it would allow some classes to reach level 13.
Switching at 13 of course means you're an ordinary singleclass fighter during BG1 and SoD, so those problems aren't there, but are you really a Fighter/Cleric, if you're a plain Fighter for over half the saga?
For all classes? Ergo, when a Cleric reaches THAC0 8 at level 19, it'll stick to level 40, and doesn't scale down to 1? In that case, at least the Fighter 13 ain't behind on THAC0 compared to the Fighter 7 and Fighter 9.
I believe THAC0 freezes 1 step better than it is at level 20, actually. Although I can't seem to access playithardcore to check at the moment.
That's correct.
The SoD manual will include up-to-date progression tables in the back with XP, THAC0, and Saving Throws included. Should make it a lot easier to look things up.
Anyhow, yes, so the Fighter 13 also has the problem that he'll be behind on THAC0 by 2 points for a good four and a half levels. I'd personally not recommend taking more than 7 levels in Fighter when switching to Cleric.
Interesting thread... I finished BG1+BG2 once with a Dual Fighter-Thief, and it was great. However I think for my next playthrough of the whole saga including SoD, I will take a Multi-classed Fighter-Thief. It is much simpler and ultimately there seem to be more advantages than inconveniences, according to most experts (starting with being able to choose a Half-Orc with 19 Strength and Constitution:-)
Anyhow, yes, so the Fighter 13 also has the problem that he'll be behind on THAC0 by 2 points for a good four and a half levels. I'd personally not recommend taking more than 7 levels in Fighter when switching to Cleric.
Great info. So it seems the clerics thaco caps at 22nd level, with 6, same as a 15th level fighter. Now i have to agree with Thels. The best for dual classing from a fighter into a cleric is 7th level. A pity in my curremt playthroughI am already at 8th level (I uncapped the game. I am at 215.000 xp at the end of bg 1) I think that, after reaching 8th level, it makes more sense to get to 9th level and then dual class
@Altair: It's important to realize how experience works. I've explained above that it goes up exponential up to around level 9-10, and then continues linear.
Due to the exponential increase in experience requirements during BG1 and SoD, multiclassing is pretty good, as each of your classes is only one level behind on what a singleclass character would be, but you get to enjoy the benefits of both classes.
However, during SoA and ToB, multiclassing is a burden. Since the experience requirements are now linear, for each two levels a singleclass character gains, you only gain one level. Admittedly, you gain one level in both classes, but since a lot of things (like HP, THAC0 and saves) don't stack together, that's not nearly the same as gaining two levels.
It is during SoA and ToB where dualclassing starts to really shine. If you go like Fighter 7 or Thief 8 into Cleric or Mage, the experience that went into the first class quickly becomes insignificant. You get all the benefits from those Fighter (exceptional strength, extra hp, extra weapon proficiencies, possibility to grandmaster) or Thief (rogue skills) levels, with the only downside being like a quarter level behind on a singleclass character. In addition, you can kit your first class.
@helmo1977: Uhm, that's a tough question. It's obvious that Fighter 7 would clearly beat either alternative, but assuming you don't have a save to go back to, and the choice is entirely between Fighter 8 and Fighter 9...
Fighter 9 does provide you with 1 additional weapon pip (which can go into grandmastery), +1 THAC0 while leveling your Cleric (until your Cleric hits level 13), and 1 fighter hit die while leveling up your Cleric (until your Cleric hits level 9, at which point it only becomes the difference between a fighter and a cleric hit die, which is pretty small unless you have insane constitution).
Also note that Fighter 8 would block you from taking grandmastery on Cleric 8, which would delay it to Cleric 12, but if you don't mind Cheezing a bit, you could hang around on Cleric 7 until you have enough XP to hit Cleric 9, and take both levels at once, gaining back your Fighter levels, and thus being able to place that pip in grandmastery.
In the long run, Fighter 8 would win, as it's 125000 XP ahead of Fighter 9, which is more than half a Cleric level (though if you're already halfway between Fighter 8 and 9, this may become insignificant, unless you're still gonna hit some kind of cap), whereas all Fighter 9 gains in the long run is 1 additional weapon pip, and a few hp.
What is worth of note however, is that Fighter 8 -> Cleric will regain Fighter abilities at 350k XP, surely attainable during SoD, whereas Fighter 9 -> Cleric requires 700k XP, which most likely will not be attainable during SoD.
However, during SoA and ToB, multiclassing is a burden. Since the experience requirements are now linear, for each two levels a singleclass character gains, you only gain one level. Admittedly, you gain one level in both classes, but since a lot of things (like HP, THAC0 and saves) don't stack together, that's not nearly the same as gaining two levels.
I'll agree with you that multiclassing loses a little steam in SoA, but in ToB they regain that ground. Very little improves for classes beyond level 20 because THAC0 and saving throws are capped. Spellcasters get a few additional slots added to their already burgeoning spellbooks (multiclass Clerics don't even have to wait that long to get level 7 spells), but otherwise the main benefit is HLAs, and multiclasses start getting those at the same time that single-classes do.
However, during SoA and ToB, multiclassing is a burden. Since the experience requirements are now linear, for each two levels a singleclass character gains, you only gain one level. Admittedly, you gain one level in both classes, but since a lot of things (like HP, THAC0 and saves) don't stack together, that's not nearly the same as gaining two levels.
I'll agree with you that multiclassing loses a little steam in SoA, but in ToB they regain that ground. Very little improves for classes beyond level 20 because THAC0 and saving throws are capped. Spellcasters get a few additional slots added to their already burgeoning spellbooks (multiclass Clerics don't even have to wait that long to get level 7 spells), but otherwise the main benefit is HLAs, and multiclasses start getting those at the same time that single-classes do.
Plus they gain many more, each time one of thier classes levels up and they have access to HLAs for both or all three of their classes, where as dual classes only get access to the HLAs of their second class.
Plus they gain many more, each time one of thier classes levels up and they have access to HLAs for both or all three of their classes, where as dual classes only get access to the HLAs of their second class.
That's an illusion. They do not actually gain more.
A Fighter/Cleric gets the first 15 at:
3000k (fighter 14) <--- Same as Fighter
3150k (cleric 15)
3500k (fighter 15) <--- Same as Fighter
3600k (cleric 16)
4000k (fighter 16) <--- Same as Fighter
4050k (cleric 17)
4500k (fighter 17) <--- Same as Fighter
4500k (cleric 18)
4950k (cleric 19) <--- Same as Cleric
5000k (fighter 18)
5400k (cleric 20) <--- Same as Cleric
5500k (fighter 19)
5850k (cleric 21) <--- Same as Cleric
6000k (fighter 20)
6300k (cleric 22) <--- Same as Cleric
A Pure Fighter gets the first 15 at:
3000k (fighter 20)
3250k (fighter 21)
3500k (fighter 22)
3750k (fighter 23)
4000k (fighter 24)
4250k (fighter 25)
4500k (fighter 26)
4750k (fighter 27)
5000k (fighter 28)
5250k (fighter 29)
5500k (fighter 30)
5750k (fighter 31)
6000k (fighter 32)
6250k (fighter 33)
6500k (fighter 34)
A Pure Cleric gets the first 15 at:
3150k (cleric 22)
3375k (cleric 23)
3600k (cleric 24)
3825k (cleric 25)
4050k (cleric 26)
4275k (cleric 27)
4500k (cleric 28)
4725k (cleric 29)
4950k (cleric 30)
5175k (cleric 31)
5400k (cleric 32)
5625k (cleric 33)
5850k (cleric 34)
6075k (cleric 35)
6300k (cleric 36)
As you can see in the above table, it's practically a wash. Multiclass characters have a small gain, because most classes tend to ding at or shortly after 1.5m, so they get them from both classes soon after (cleric is actually the worst case, but then on average have to wait twice as long for them to come again. They gain the odd HLAs at the same time as another class, just gaining the even HLAs slightly faster. That is far from gaining a lot more HLAs than single classes.
Dual-Classing always takes some planning, usually some redundancy in your party to cover the gaps whilst getting up to speed professionally. It's mid to high risk and usually high reward if done right. Multi-Classing takes so much more xp to gain the higher level benefits so it has it's own risks while safely maintaining all class abilities as active. As much as this game is about story and adventure I enjoy the meta gaming analytical side of it hah! Minsc is gonna have to work overtime when I get my noob mage robes on in April, ... "Please hold these five swords and this full plate for me I'm off to see my wizard tutor again lads".
Tangentially related to the xcap, is there any reason to believe that if I've removed the level cap in my BGEE save, I'll encounter issues w/ a SoD import? Has anyone talked about that in another thread?
Tangentially related to the xcap, is there any reason to believe that if I've removed the level cap in my BGEE save, I'll encounter issues w/ a SoD import? Has anyone talked about that in another thread?
Should not be an issue. Though if you're over the xp cap of SoD then it may lower your XP.
So my multiclassed Fighter/Thief will be level 9/10 by the end of SoD, excellent @Thels by the way, a multiclass F/T can reach a THAC0 of 0 (base) ultimately, while a dual-classed F/T cannot reach it. Even dualling at Fighter 13, he will have only a base THAC0 of 8, because the Thief's base THAC0 caps at 10 and for a dual class the best base THAC0 of the two classes is applied (i.e. 8 here). One additional advantage of the multiclass vs dualclass...
Comments
*No pun intended.
For example, for a fighter, this cutoff point is at level 9.
Level 1 to level 9 costs 250k XP.
Level 9 to level 10 costs 250k XP.
Level 10 to level 11 costs 250k XP.
Level 11 to level 12 costs 250k XP.
For a cleric, this cutoff point is also at level 9.
Level 1 to level 9 costs 225k XP.
Level 9 to level 10 costs 225k XP.
Level 10 to level 11 costs 225k XP.
Level 11 to level 12 costs 225k XP.
Let's forget for a moment that it's 25k XP less for a cleric, and assume that it's 250k for both classes. Not 100% accurate, but it's easier to drive my point across.
If you spend 9 levels in Fighter, and then dual to Cleric, once you've reached Cleric level 9, you will always be 1 level lower than when you would be a full Cleric. If you'd take less levels in Fighter, you'd be a little bit less behind, say a level about half the time. It's not going to have a major impact on your Cleric progression to take 9 levels in Fighter.
But if you take 10 levels in Fighter, you'll always be 2 levels behind in Cleric, 11 levels in Fighter is 3 levels behind, 12 levels in Fighter is 4 levels behind, and 13 levels in Fighter is 5 levels behind.
Whereas taking 2 to 9 levels in Fighter only scale a bit when your Cleric levels up (more Fighter levels will cause your Cleric a little later), each level above 9 costs you an entire Cleric level.
(Actually, it'll cost slightly more than a Cleric level, because Fighter levels are slightly more expensive, but it gets the idea across.)
Thus, beyond the cut-off point (9 for Clerics, Fighters, Monks, Paladins and Rangers, 11 for Bards, Mages, Shamans, Sorcerers and Thieves, 12 for Druids) you have to ask yourself: "Is each additional level worth it to be 1 level behind in my new class?"
<div class="QuoteAuthor"><a href="/profile/helmo1977">helmo1977</a> said:</div>
<div class="QuoteText">I have started a game with my main character a fighter (berserker), but I will dual him at 9th or 12th level to a cleric (as I have no cleric in my group)
Ps. What do you think, should I dual him at 9th or 12th level?</div>
</blockquote>
Dual him at 7th, no reason to go to 9th on a cleric.
Or better yet, don't dual to a cleric. You'll always be ~30% behind what a real warrior can do due to APR limitations.
9th gains you another proficiency point and slightly better THACO. It really depends on just what kind of character you want. If you want it primarily to be a cleric, then he will make an excellent cleric. Note that Anomen in BG2 already fulfills this role, however. Also, if you go to 9th level as a fighter and dual class to a cleric, you will not regain your fighter abilities back until BG2.
As stated before, the main point is the extra proficiency point and a slightly better THACO score. For a Cleric it may not mean a whole lot as they have a decent THACO table but for a mage or thief its rather important, plus having that extra prof point allows you to more easily dual wield a good weapon in your offhand for good bonuses, such as Belm/Kundane or Crom Faeyr
A multiclass is more of a mix between two classes where as a dual class is primarily focused on their second class pick with a bit of the first added in for utility and/or combat ability.
But then, do you really still get a lot out of those extra levels from your first class? A level 13 Fighter has a THAC0 of 8. Clerics get that THAC0 at level 19, so if your Cleric is Epic level, the Fighter's THAC0 is useless. Fighers receive 3 hp per level, where Clerics only receive 2, so you'd gain 4 extra HP this way... except you're 4-5 levels behind, which causes you to lose 8-10 HP from those Cleric levels, clearly a net loss. So the question is that APR vs all those Cleric goodies.
Also, "stats at the end of the game" is not something you should strive too hard for. At the end of the game, you're done playing, so you no longer benefit from said stats. You benefit from them during the game, thus, it is generally not very wise to cripple yourself during the game to get the best stats at the end of the game.
All the characters tested have the same stats. 18/00 strength.
At level 20, a cleric with 1 point in two weapon fighting and 1 point in maces and dual wield two magical maces with a THACO of 7 in main hand and 11 in the offhand with a nonmagical mace and nonmagic warhammer. Also has 112 hit points and only 2 APR.
Dualed at level 13, a fighter/cleric with equal experience has a THACO of 2 in the main hand and 8 in the off hand with the same weapons. He is however only level 14 in cleric, 6 cleric levels behind that of the pure cleric. He has 140 hit points and a whopping 4 APR. He has grandmastery in maces , 2 pips in warhammers and 2 pips in two weapon fighting.
Dualed at level 9, a fighter/cleric with equal experience has a THACO of 4 in the main hand and 10 in the off hand with the same weapons. He is however only level 17 in cleric, 3 levels behind that of the pure cleric. Again 140 hps and 7/2 attacks with grandmastery in maces, 2 pips in warhammer and 2 pips in two weapon fighting.
Dualed at level 7.... THACO of 2 MH and 8 OH , level 19 in cleric, 7/2 attacks. Only one class behind a pure cleric. 140 hps, grandmastery in maces 2 pips in each warhammer and two weapon fighting again.
It seems to me that taking at least 7 levels in fighter is worth it as you only lose 64,000 xp , which in reality isnt being an entire level behind a pure class cleric as getting that small an amount of xp in BG2 is nothing at all. You basically lose nothing as a cleric and gain quite a bit of THACO and 1/2 APR and about 30 hps.
When you reach the level cap for ToB, you will have lost one level of cleric, however, as a dual at level 7 can only go up to level 39 cleric. Which is basically nothing. A 40 level pure cleric will have a THACO of 5 in main and 9 in off hand. A fighter (7)/Cleric (39) has a THACO of 0 in main hand and 2 in off hand, as his proficiency points will have been able to eventually get 3 points in two weapon fighting and grandmastery in warhammers. A 13 fighter ---> cleric will have the same THACO but 4 APR and can only get to level 38 cleric.
So in mid game you'd be behind quite a number of cleric levels with dualing at level 13 or even 9, but dualing at 7 you'd be only very slightly behind a pure cleric and have much better fighting ability. And in the very end, a level 40 cleric has nothing that a level 38 or 39 cleric doesn't also have.
Dualing at 7 seems to be the best in terms of gaining raw power from the Fighter class but not really losing anything at all in your cleric class except being a measly 64K xp behind a pure cleric.
Granted the first few levels are extremely quick given the experience amounts available in BG2 but overcoming cleric levels from 8 to 14 (to get back your fighter 13 skills) requires over a million experience and for much of that time your cleric wanna be warrior is dependent on the rest of the party to support him - perhaps not an issue from a gameplay standpoint but it does kind of suck from an RP standpoint.
The question then becomes just how much do you value an extra point here and there vs having a PC that carries his own weight (or better) for a greater percentage of the game. (by dualing at a lower level)
Also, there seems to be something wrong with your levels.
A level 20 cleric has between 2700k and 2950k xp.
A level 13 fighter has 1250k xp, a level 14 cleric has between 1350k and 1575k xp, for a total between 2600k and 2825k xp.
A level 9 fighther has 250k xp, a level 17 cleric has between 2025k and 2250k xp, for a total between 2275k and 2500k.
A level 7 fighter has 64k xp, a level 19 cleric has between 2475k and 2700k xp, for a total between 2539k and 2764k xp.
I assume you took the "2700k" xp as the base level, but in this case, the level 9 fighter should be a level 18 cleric, not level 17. Also note that the level 7 fighter is only 64k XP short of reaching level 20 cleric, and the level 9 fighter is only 25k short of reaching level 19 cleric. So it's not really fair to say that they are 1 and 2 levels behind, as you arbitrarily took an XP amount where the pureclass cleric just leveled.
But it's the way THAC0 works. Each class has it's own THAC0, and if you are dual or multiclassed, the game uses your best THAC0. They don't stack. In the Dualclass case, you use your Fighter THAC0 (which doesn't improve), until your Cleric THAC0 catches up, from which point you use your Cleric THAC0.
Fighters have +1 THAC0 per 1 level. Clerics have +2 THAC0 per 3 levels.
A 4th level Cleric has a THAC0 of 18, equal to a 3rd level Figher.
A 7th level Cleric has a THAC0 of 16, equal to a 5th level Figher.
A 10th level Cleric has a THAC0 of 14, equal to a 7th level Figher.
A 13th level Cleric has a THAC0 of 12, equal to a 9th level Figher.
A 16th level Cleric has a THAC0 of 10, equal to a 11th level Figher.
A 19th level Cleric has a THAC0 of 8, equal to a 13th level Figher.
You pointed out in your above list that the level 9 Fighter has a poorer THAC0 than both the level 7 Fighter and the level 13 Fighter. That's really a snap shot moment, as 25k XP later, the level 9 Fighter has the same THAC0 as the level 7 and 13 fighters.
In the long run, 7 levels in fighter are obviously worth it, as 64k XP is insignificant, and it nets you 0.5 APR and up to 14 extra hp. Your THAC0 is 14, which requires Cleric 10 to match. Clerics also conveniently get a pip to place in Grandmastery at level 8 (for a total of 171k xp).
9 levels in fighter costs you 250k XP total, placing you just over a level behind on the pureclass cleric, and just under a level behind on the level 7 fighter. You need 250k xp to get that final pip for Grandmastery, which is slower than the level 7 fighter at 171k xp. However, you do receive 2 extra pips while catching up as a Cleric, whereas the level 7 fighter only receives 1 extra pip (next to the one going into Grandmaster), so you'll be a pip ahead of the level 7 fighter option. Nice if you want to be proficient with different weapons, useless otherwise.
9 levels in fighter does net you +2 THAC0 and a bunch of hp (up to 20 + 2x con bonus) while your cleric is catching up, but once you hit Cleric level 9, the hp advantage shrinks to up to 4 (and since you're a level behind, up to 2 is more accurate), and once you hit Cleric level 13, the THAC0 advantage has disappeared. You'll be a better Fighter while leveling your Cleric side up to 13, but after that, all advantages have disappeared, and you're basically a level behind. (Note that if you actually needed Fighter pips to spend on Mastery and above, then this option would be a lot stronger, as the level 7 fighter option would no longer grant you Grandmastery.)
Obviously, the level 13 fighter takes this a bit further, providing an additional 12 hp, 4 THAC0, and 0.5 APR over the level 9 fighter, as well as an extra proficiency pip... Except that the level 9 fighter has already reached level 12 cleric, and is pretty close to level 13 already, so those 12 hp are more like 4 hp, and by the time your level 13 fighter finally reaches level 14 cleric at 2600k xp, your level 9 fighter is already a level 18 cleric, at which the level 13 fighter is actually 4 hp behind, and the level 9 fighter is only half a level away from 19, at which point, the THAC0s become equal.
You gotta ask yourself, is having that 0.5 APR really so great that it's worth taking so long to dualclass, being 4-5 levels behind in a spellcasting class (that's a lot of spells you're missing out on)?
Also, I don't know if THAC0 advances past level 20 (I've tried searching for proper tables, but for some reason, I can't find any class tables anywhere that list THAC0. Experience, Hit Dice, APR bonuses, Weapon pips, Spells, Backstab multipliers, those are all easy to find properly charted, but none of those tables list THAC0 for some odd reason.), but if it does, that means the level 13 fighter will also be at least 2 and sometimes 4 THAC0 behind on the level 7 and 9 fighters.
The only downsides about 7th level and 9th level dualclassing, are the game caps. If you swap at 7th level Fighter, you'll get to 7th level Cleric in BG1, but need 174k XP to reach level 8 (which is not achievable in BG1 unless SoD raises the cap). If you swap at 9th level Fighter, you probably an get to 9th level Cleric in SoD, but the 700k XP you need to reach Cleric 10 is surely out, as it would allow some classes to reach level 13.
Switching at 13 of course means you're an ordinary singleclass fighter during BG1 and SoD, so those problems aren't there, but are you really a Fighter/Cleric, if you're a plain Fighter for over half the saga?
The SoD manual will include up-to-date progression tables in the back with XP, THAC0, and Saving Throws included. Should make it a lot easier to look things up.
Should've looked for those before.
Anyhow, yes, so the Fighter 13 also has the problem that he'll be behind on THAC0 by 2 points for a good four and a half levels. I'd personally not recommend taking more than 7 levels in Fighter when switching to Cleric.
Great info. So it seems the clerics thaco caps at 22nd level, with 6, same as a 15th level fighter. Now i have to agree with Thels. The best for dual classing from a fighter into a cleric is 7th level. A pity in my curremt playthroughI am already at 8th level (I uncapped the game. I am at 215.000 xp at the end of bg 1) I think that, after reaching 8th level, it makes more sense to get to 9th level and then dual class
Due to the exponential increase in experience requirements during BG1 and SoD, multiclassing is pretty good, as each of your classes is only one level behind on what a singleclass character would be, but you get to enjoy the benefits of both classes.
However, during SoA and ToB, multiclassing is a burden. Since the experience requirements are now linear, for each two levels a singleclass character gains, you only gain one level. Admittedly, you gain one level in both classes, but since a lot of things (like HP, THAC0 and saves) don't stack together, that's not nearly the same as gaining two levels.
It is during SoA and ToB where dualclassing starts to really shine. If you go like Fighter 7 or Thief 8 into Cleric or Mage, the experience that went into the first class quickly becomes insignificant. You get all the benefits from those Fighter (exceptional strength, extra hp, extra weapon proficiencies, possibility to grandmaster) or Thief (rogue skills) levels, with the only downside being like a quarter level behind on a singleclass character. In addition, you can kit your first class.
@helmo1977: Uhm, that's a tough question. It's obvious that Fighter 7 would clearly beat either alternative, but assuming you don't have a save to go back to, and the choice is entirely between Fighter 8 and Fighter 9...
Fighter 9 does provide you with 1 additional weapon pip (which can go into grandmastery), +1 THAC0 while leveling your Cleric (until your Cleric hits level 13), and 1 fighter hit die while leveling up your Cleric (until your Cleric hits level 9, at which point it only becomes the difference between a fighter and a cleric hit die, which is pretty small unless you have insane constitution).
Also note that Fighter 8 would block you from taking grandmastery on Cleric 8, which would delay it to Cleric 12, but if you don't mind Cheezing a bit, you could hang around on Cleric 7 until you have enough XP to hit Cleric 9, and take both levels at once, gaining back your Fighter levels, and thus being able to place that pip in grandmastery.
In the long run, Fighter 8 would win, as it's 125000 XP ahead of Fighter 9, which is more than half a Cleric level (though if you're already halfway between Fighter 8 and 9, this may become insignificant, unless you're still gonna hit some kind of cap), whereas all Fighter 9 gains in the long run is 1 additional weapon pip, and a few hp.
What is worth of note however, is that Fighter 8 -> Cleric will regain Fighter abilities at 350k XP, surely attainable during SoD, whereas Fighter 9 -> Cleric requires 700k XP, which most likely will not be attainable during SoD.
Plus they gain many more, each time one of thier classes levels up and they have access to HLAs for both or all three of their classes, where as dual classes only get access to the HLAs of their second class.
That's an illusion. They do not actually gain more.
A Fighter/Cleric gets the first 15 at:
A Pure Fighter gets the first 15 at:
A Pure Cleric gets the first 15 at:
As you can see in the above table, it's practically a wash. Multiclass characters have a small gain, because most classes tend to ding at or shortly after 1.5m, so they get them from both classes soon after (cleric is actually the worst case, but then on average have to wait twice as long for them to come again. They gain the odd HLAs at the same time as another class, just gaining the even HLAs slightly faster. That is far from gaining a lot more HLAs than single classes.
So that means i can get a 10 th level cleric id sod. Great¡
Should not be an issue. Though if you're over the xp cap of SoD then it may lower your XP.
Paladins and Rangers getting the shaft...
@Thels by the way, a multiclass F/T can reach a THAC0 of 0 (base) ultimately, while a dual-classed F/T cannot reach it. Even dualling at Fighter 13, he will have only a base THAC0 of 8, because the Thief's base THAC0 caps at 10 and for a dual class the best base THAC0 of the two classes is applied (i.e. 8 here). One additional advantage of the multiclass vs dualclass...