Yes, I know. That's why I recommend checking the code in "Level 1 NPCs". In particular, the one-time-only rest script, mentioned in my previous post, solves (brilliantly IMO) the issue with the illegal memorised spells. As you said, it is a minor issue, but I like the fact that with "Level 1 NPCs" you can choose in-game how to handle that.
Ah. But Level One NPCs is an incredibly complex mod, trying to replicate part of it would be a big undertaking.
Anyway I think adding scripts for this is overkill. I'm saying, just let level-2 Edwin have all of the spells of level-6 Edwin, if you recruit him late in the game. He will have enough XP to level up to level 6, you can do so immediately, and then those spells are no longer 'illegal.' The problem takes care of itself.
Yes, Level One NPCs is an incredibly complex mod, but they could still implement just a part of it (see edit below).
In particular, your proposed method (i.e. ignoring the illegal spells) is my third favourite method. The first being obviously the use of the one-time-only rest script. The second is removing the illegal spells from the memorised spell slots, so the player has to actually sleep before being able to use them.
The rest script is not overkilling IMO and it provides more choices to the player, because it can emulate both the behaviour you like (ignore) and the one I like (temporarely remove).
Here I'm merely expressing my personal preference, but the issue of the illegal spells is a minor one. So it doesn't matter too much to me how they'll decide to handle it, as long as they fix the problem with the missing spells, equipment, etc.
Edit: "Level One NPCs" is a very complex mod because it allows to change classes, give/change kits, change proficiencies/skills also at level 1, etc. The part of "Level One NPCs" that's relevant to the feature described here is just a tiny portion of it.
It is since instead of finding an NPC with his proficiencies and spells, you find a low level character you can customize as you like.
They are called NPCs for a reason. Being able to level them up once they are in your party is one thing, but finding them and level them up from a low level breaks inmersion into the game.
I'm not really against the change since, the more options the better, but I would like it to be an optional one.
They keep saying that everything new they added they have made it optional, but that's not completely true. A lot of people, me included would want something as close to the original games as possible while getting the new content as well. Instead we are getting several changes that are mostly unnecesary or forced, like Level 1 NPCs, the black borders on the on the sides of the maps or the new UI.
Big changes, such as this, to an old game should always be optional for the players.
I recruited Baeloth but was unable to level him up as he already was level 6. Intended or not?
Baeloth can only be recruited once you pass a certain level (5 or 6, don't remember), so that is probably his lowest level you can get him. Try finding him at lvl 8 and see if he levels up.
It is since instead of finding an NPC with his proficiencies and spells, you find a low level character you can customize as you like.
They are called NPCs for a reason. Being able to level them up once they are in your party is one thing, but finding them and level them up from a low level breaks inmersion into the game.
I'm not really against the change since, the more options the better, but I would like it to be an optional one.
They keep saying that everything new they added they have made it optional, but that's not completely true. A lot of people, me included would want something as close to the original games as possible while getting the new content as well. Instead we are getting several changes that are mostly unnecesary or forced, like Level 1 NPCs, the black borders on the on the sides of the maps or the new UI.
Big changes, such as this, to an old game should always be optional for the players.
You don't get more power this way. The difference is negligible because NPCs already have reasonably placed pips.
Immersion? Yeah i understand (i really do). But balance? nah.
It's trading immersion for customizability (it's a scarce commodity in AD&D!), not trading immersion for "more powaahh".
Also, the previous behavior wasn't very immersive because it was a form of level-scaling: you would always meet NPCs that match your level - how come?
Just a quiet note (the discussion is a good one) - Each of the games in the series used to handle NPC scaling differently:
Baldur's Gate:
- Each NPC has a series of cre files that are used based on the player's level
- Each cre file has its own level, stats, and equipment
Shadows of Amn:
- Each NPC has a series of cre files that are used based on the player's level
- Each cre file has the same stats and equipment, but a different level
Throne of Bhaal:
- Each NPC has a single cre file that is then granted additional XP based on the player's level
In other words, the way it worked in Baldur's Gate was unique to Baldur's Gate. Starting in Baldur's Gate II, NPC equipment was static. Starting in Throne of Bhaal, all NPCs use a single cre file that is just scaled to the player's XP.
This change adapts the Throne of Bhaal method to Shadows of Amn and Baldur's Gate.
I didn't know how ToB or SoA handled this since I have only played vanilla BG1 from start to finish, but I still would like it to be an option instead of forced.
Also, what about equipment, as you said, it's different for each cre file, but if you use the ToB approach then we will get the exact same equipment in each level which doesn't seem right for BG. The same thing goes for Spells if I'm not mistaken.
I noticed the NPCLEVEL.2DA has been altered, so that's how.
One thing that bugs me though. After recruiting NPCs with maximum level/XP, it seems there's a cap of 32K. Some NPCs prior to this new system could reach level 6 upon joining. Now, they can only reach level 5 (example: Ajantis). So, the amount delivered would need to be more finely tuned to account for that.
I see now in (Ajantis) override creature script that you went with these steps (in K): 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32 (Fighter level progression) depending on PC XP (same steps; not as @Dee said based on level). I guess if I check other NPCs script it'll be the same.
I can see the logic behind it though and I actually like XP based method better than level based where stronger classes (supposedly) get additional XP.
The Fighter progression appears to be somewhat an average so I understand why they would choose it rather than others.
I noticed the NPCLEVEL.2DA has been altered, so that's how.
One thing that bugs me though. After recruiting NPCs with maximum level/XP, it seems there's a cap of 32K.
I've noticed it too.
Maybe you should report it as a bug, because according to Dee it should scale to the player's XP, so it shouldn't have a limit and should scale up to 161k in BGEE and 8 mln in BG2EE.
@bengoshi How does that work in BG2?
I don't think it's a bug though (it's only a few lines of code). Just a design choice to average gains and limit them for NPCs to reach ~level 6 and not more.
With the old method, to reach that level some NPC could get much more XP than others (maximum amount of 55K for Quayle). So it creates a discrepancy but that's the trade-off of a XP based method; which upon reflection, I find fairer.
Now, we could discuss the progression choice. There could be more steps and with different values.
I didn't know how ToB or SoA handled this since I have only played vanilla BG1 from start to finish, but I still would like it to be an option instead of forced.
It is optional. See this response from another thread:
You don't need a mod to revert the Level 1 NPC change, you just look at their stats listed on dozens of websites for various levels and you manually take thirty seconds to level them back to the original design. It has no impact on your game play. While I. An level up Coran to have a high set traps skill instead of stealth or s good find traps. Then everyone is happy. It's a painless, pointless thing over which people complain
I love the fact that NPCs now begin at lowest level. It's MY team and MY game. I've always wanted complete control and hate it when you get an NPC too late and they've wasted points.
It is optional. See this response from another thread:
While I personally prefer this system myself as well, forcing people to do a bunch of work to get things closely resembling the old way is not the same as optional. "Immersion Breaking" is a pretty good argument, and having to visit a website to see how their points are distributed would be even more Immersion Breaking. Besides, that doesn't fix the gear.
Comments
Edit: "Level One NPCs" is a very complex mod because it allows to change classes, give/change kits, change proficiencies/skills also at level 1, etc. The part of "Level One NPCs" that's relevant to the feature described here is just a tiny portion of it.
It is since instead of finding an NPC with his proficiencies and spells, you find a low level character you can customize as you like.
They are called NPCs for a reason. Being able to level them up once they are in your party is one thing, but finding them and level them up from a low level breaks inmersion into the game.
I'm not really against the change since, the more options the better, but I would like it to be an optional one.
They keep saying that everything new they added they have made it optional, but that's not completely true. A lot of people, me included would want something as close to the original games as possible while getting the new content as well. Instead we are getting several changes that are mostly unnecesary or forced, like Level 1 NPCs, the black borders on the on the sides of the maps or the new UI.
Big changes, such as this, to an old game should always be optional for the players.
Baeloth can only be recruited once you pass a certain level (5 or 6, don't remember), so that is probably his lowest level you can get him. Try finding him at lvl 8 and see if he levels up.
You don't get more power this way. The difference is negligible because NPCs already have reasonably placed pips.
Immersion? Yeah i understand (i really do). But balance? nah.
It's trading immersion for customizability (it's a scarce commodity in AD&D!), not trading immersion for "more powaahh".
Also, the previous behavior wasn't very immersive because it was a form of level-scaling: you would always meet NPCs that match your level - how come?
Baldur's Gate:
- Each NPC has a series of cre files that are used based on the player's level
- Each cre file has its own level, stats, and equipment
Shadows of Amn:
- Each NPC has a series of cre files that are used based on the player's level
- Each cre file has the same stats and equipment, but a different level
Throne of Bhaal:
- Each NPC has a single cre file that is then granted additional XP based on the player's level
In other words, the way it worked in Baldur's Gate was unique to Baldur's Gate. Starting in Baldur's Gate II, NPC equipment was static. Starting in Throne of Bhaal, all NPCs use a single cre file that is just scaled to the player's XP.
This change adapts the Throne of Bhaal method to Shadows of Amn and Baldur's Gate.
Also, what about equipment, as you said, it's different for each cre file, but if you use the ToB approach then we will get the exact same equipment in each level which doesn't seem right for BG. The same thing goes for Spells if I'm not mistaken.
The higher level CRE files are still present, but they are no longer used by the game.
We always use the lowest level CRE file and adjust the XP via scripting.
One thing that bugs me though. After recruiting NPCs with maximum level/XP, it seems there's a cap of 32K. Some NPCs prior to this new system could reach level 6 upon joining. Now, they can only reach level 5 (example: Ajantis). So, the amount delivered would need to be more finely tuned to account for that.
I see now in (Ajantis) override creature script that you went with these steps (in K): 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32 (Fighter level progression) depending on PC XP (same steps; not as @Dee said based on level). I guess if I check other NPCs script it'll be the same.
I can see the logic behind it though and I actually like XP based method better than level based where stronger classes (supposedly) get additional XP.
The Fighter progression appears to be somewhat an average so I understand why they would choose it rather than others.
I've noticed it too.
Maybe you should report it as a bug, because according to Dee it should scale to the player's XP, so it shouldn't have a limit and should scale up to 161k in BGEE and 8 mln in BG2EE.
I don't think it's a bug though (it's only a few lines of code). Just a design choice to average gains and limit them for NPCs to reach ~level 6 and not more.
With the old method, to reach that level some NPC could get much more XP than others (maximum amount of 55K for Quayle). So it creates a discrepancy but that's the trade-off of a XP based method; which upon reflection, I find fairer.
Now, we could discuss the progression choice. There could be more steps and with different values.
It is optional. See this response from another thread:
It is lowest character level.
While I personally prefer this system myself as well, forcing people to do a bunch of work to get things closely resembling the old way is not the same as optional. "Immersion Breaking" is a pretty good argument, and having to visit a website to see how their points are distributed would be even more Immersion Breaking. Besides, that doesn't fix the gear.