Constitution bonus does not work

Artas1984

I have a CON 18 barbarian and a CON 18 cleric (example).

Barbarian has 16 HP - 12 from hit dice and 4 from CON bonus - everything is like it should be.
Cleric has 10 HP - 8 from hit dice and only 2 from CON bonus? What?

I've made an experiment further - cleric does not get any HP bonus from 14 CON. The same thing happens with a mage and rogue.

I do not like this, is this some stupid EE modification? Why then my lead barbarian has got the stats ok?

If i look at the character screen, i see a confirmation that the barbarian gets 4 HP from ability score bonus, but the cleric does not have anything written like it - no ability score bonuses.

bleusteel

Only warrior classes get exceptional HP bonuses from 17 and 18 CON. Other classes get a max +2 bonus at 16 CON.

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Artas1984

subtledoctor said:

To clarify: warriors get +1 hp at 15 CON up to +4 ar 18 CON. Non-warriors get +1 hp at 15 CON, +2 at 16 CON, and that's it. Not an EE change, it's always been that way.

My mod Scales of Balance has a component with an alternate system that's a bit more fair.

In other words this is a rule that is meant to be in the second edition D&D games? Does the increased CON bonus at least add +4 fortitude save for all classes? What about your mod? I want to read about it.

Jarrakul

This is a rule that's in 2nd edition D&D, yes. As for saves, there's no fortitude save in second edition, and Con (and every other stat) doesn't add any bonus to any saves (except for halflings, gnomes, and dwarves, but that's a racial ability).

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FinneousPJ

@subtledoctor is it your intention to make higher rolls more unlikely for everyone but wizards and rogues?

Thels

It's definitely a 2nd edition rule, one of those odd things that makes you wonder: "WHY?"

I wonder if anyone has made a mod that would make the stats behave more like Third Edition:
Score 0-1 = -5 penalty (or -25%)
Score 2-3 = -4 penalty (or -20%)
Score 4-5 = -3 penalty (or -15%)
Score 6-7 = -2 penalty (or -10%)
Score 8-9 = -1 penalty (or -5%)
Score 10-11 = no penalty or bonus
Score 12-13 = +1 bonus (or +5%)
Score 14-15 = +2 bonus (or +10%)
Score 16-17 = +3 bonus (or +15%)
Score 18-19 = +4 bonus (or +20%)
Score 20-21 = +5 bonus (or +25%)
Score 22-23 = +6 bonus (or +30%)
Score 24-25 = +7 bonus (or +35%)

Melee THAC0 and Damage would use Strength's modifier, Ranged THAC0, AC and Speed would use Dexterity's modifier, Hit Points would use Constitution's modifier and Reaction would use Charisma's modifier. Shorty Saving Throw bonuses could use Constitution's modifier (maybe only allow positive values).

Rogue skills would use Dexterity's percentage modifier. Lore would use both Intelligence's and Wisdom's percentage modifier. Open doors could be a base 25% chance and use Strength's percentage modifier. Spell learning chance could be a base 65% chance and use Intelligence's percentage modifier. Shop prices could be a base 110% and subtract Charisma's percentage modifier, with a max of 100%.

Would only leave Weight Allowance, Regeneration, Spells Per Level, Max Spell Level and Bonus Spells. (There is a Bonus spells table for 3rd edition, so technically that could be used as well).

Exceptional strength would be ignored (just as effective as a regular strength of 18).

I like the idea of such a mod, but mulling it over in my head, I think it would be pretty imbalanced. All the NPC stats are aimed around 2nd edition tables, which generally have no penalty or bonus at 7-14, and then suddenly start handing out +1/point at 15+, and -1/point at 6-. So there's a lot of 13-16 chars currently out there that would gain a lot of buffs from this.

((2nd's 7-14 is like 3rd's 10-11, and every 1 point higher or lower in 2nd edition is like going 2 points higher or lower in 3rd edition, with the difference being that for 3rd, all the ability score based modifiers are identical, whereas there are huge tables with minute differences for 2nd. Also, 3rd doesn't make exceptions for Fighter types on Strength and Constitution.))

AstroBryGuy

Thels wrote: »

It's definitely a 2nd edition rule, one of those odd things that makes you wonder: "WHY?"

I wonder if anyone has made a mod that would make the stats behave more like Third Edition:
Score 0-1 = -5 penalty (or -25%)
Score 2-3 = -4 penalty (or -20%)
Score 4-5 = -3 penalty (or -15%)
Score 6-7 = -2 penalty (or -10%)
Score 8-9 = -1 penalty (or -5%)
Score 10-11 = no penalty or bonus
Score 12-13 = +1 bonus (or +5%)
Score 14-15 = +2 bonus (or +10%)
Score 16-17 = +3 bonus (or +15%)
Score 18-19 = +4 bonus (or +20%)
Score 20-21 = +5 bonus (or +25%)
Score 22-23 = +6 bonus (or +30%)
Score 24-25 = +7 bonus (or +35%)

Melee THAC0 and Damage would use Strength's modifier, Ranged THAC0, AC and Speed would use Dexterity's modifier, Hit Points would use Constitution's modifier and Reaction would use Charisma's modifier. Shorty Saving Throw bonuses could use Constitution's modifier (maybe only allow positive values).

Rogue skills would use Dexterity's percentage modifier. Lore would use both Intelligence's and Wisdom's percentage modifier. Open doors could be a base 25% chance and use Strength's percentage modifier. Spell learning chance could be a base 65% chance and use Intelligence's percentage modifier. Shop prices could be a base 110% and subtract Charisma's percentage modifier, with a max of 100%.

Would only leave Weight Allowance, Regeneration, Spells Per Level, Max Spell Level and Bonus Spells. (There is a Bonus spells table for 3rd edition, so technically that could be used as well).

Exceptional strength would be ignored (just as effective as a regular strength of 18).

I like the idea of such a mod, but mulling it over in my head, I think it would be pretty imbalanced. All the NPC stats are aimed around 2nd edition tables, which generally have no penalty or bonus at 7-14, and then suddenly start handing out +1/point at 15+, and -1/point at 6-. So there's a lot of 13-16 chars currently out there that would gain a lot of buffs from this.

((2nd's 7-14 is like 3rd's 10-11, and every 1 point higher or lower in 2nd edition is like going 2 points higher or lower in 3rd edition, with the difference being that for 3rd, all the ability score based modifiers are identical, whereas there are huge tables with minute differences for 2nd. Also, 3rd doesn't make exceptions for Fighter types on Strength and Constitution.))

Also many would be nerfed. Many creatures use 9 as a default score. So you'd weaken a lot of enemies. If you want a more generous bonus progression than AD&D, you could make a mod based on BECMI's progression.

2-3 -3
4-5 -2
6-8 -1
9-12 no bonus
13-15 +1
16-17 +2
18-19 +3
20-21 +4
22-23 +5
24-25 +6

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Thels

The "You get something from 14 and up" is actually what I dislike about the 2nd edition system, much preferring the 3rd edition system. Not saying it's perfect. Those odd scores feel pretty useless, but it's something to easily work around.

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Thels

Yeah, you're probably right about the average scores being so high (though honestly, 2e kinda forces it, because you need your stats very high before they start to matter). In a vacuum, using 3rd edition stats would probably be easier, but considering everything is balanced around 2e, something like AstroBryGuy's suggestion is probably more of a middle ground.

Though I guess I'll just stick to the original. It's what all the NPCs and Creatures are designed around, after all.

sarevok57

I actually like how 2nd edition does their ability score bonuses over how 3rd edition does them, although in 3rd edition they made a lot more use out of all the ability scores and wanted to make it easier to calculate so I think that is why they did it that way

the one reason why I don't like 3rd edition ability score improvement is that every odd number adds absolutely no benefit, only every even number adds any benefit, so I feel like sometimes ability score points are wastes because if its an odd number it adds nothing

but in 2nd edition, yes bonuses usually start at 15, but pretty much anything pass that and you are almost guaranteed to always get a bonus upon each ability score increase ( especially STR for example) - with the only one being DEX but that doesn't happen until you hit high DEX- even constitution still continues to improve pass 20 because it affects how fast you regenerate