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Who here thinks Minsc should be a Ranger Dual Classed to Berserker due to his headwound?

DebaserDebaser Member Posts: 669
edited September 2012 in Archive (General Discussion)

I REALLY, REALLY....REALLLLLY think that they should consider this. If the Berserker Kit is viable to play in BG1 EE like TuTu...why not just dual him over to explain his berserk rage, he'd essentially be the same character, but instead of having too low of a Wisdom score to cast priest spells without failure percentages he would get more rage uses as time goes by, making him a much better character in BG2 later on...(he kind of plateaus otherwise in comparison to say Sarevok and others) But what do you think?
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Comments

  • DebaserDebaser Member Posts: 669
    (And since he WAS a ranger...his dialog would be fine)
  • karpaszkarpasz Member Posts: 74
    According to lore, he should be a barbarian (however, there weren't kits nor barbarian class in 2nd edition).
  • DebaserDebaser Member Posts: 669
    edited September 2012
    @karpasz Well...I would be fine with Barbarian too...but he should be dualed from Ranger to something else, if I was a DM for this game and it was Pen and Paper...the whole head-wound angle messes with his stats too much not to make some house rules that reflect special abilities. a level one ranger who duels immediately isn't going to be overpowered by any stretch either. I just think Berserker makes more sense...since he has "Berserker Strength" when he busts out of his cage in BG2, and his rage is nearly identical.
  • BrudeBrude Member Posts: 560
    edited September 2012

    He does make much more sense as a Berserker or Barbarian than a Ranger.

    For my money, though, I'd prefer the original game to stay the same and delegate this kind of functionality to mods (with a built in mod manager). It's either SCS or BG2Tweaks which allows you to turn Khalid into a Fighter/Mage and Monteron into an Assassin.

    It's good fun but after a certain point your no longer really playing Baldur's Gate. You're rolling your own party and borrowing the voice acting.
  • DebaserDebaser Member Posts: 669
    edited September 2012
    @Brude I would be fine with that too at least I could change it to my tastes...but honestly, I just want him to make a little more sense. I really like the guy, but he is so much better as a Berserker...plus he can get grand mastery that way.
  • BrudeBrude Member Posts: 560
    @Debaser totally agree. I was *this* close to making Misc into a Barbarian (face paint/tatoo, 2hander, made sense) after playing Khalid as a Fighter/Mage.

    Then of course, I got carried away -- Oh man, wouldn't it be cool of Kivan was a proper Archer? And Ajantis a Cavalier? Hmmm maybe I should make Imoen a Swashie. I never use her for backstabs so ... Or, I know! Coran!

    I was itching to make Garrick into a Jester or a Skald, then hit the wrong key and he turned up in my game as a Paladin.

    That's when I went back to playing vanilla BG with no mods. :-P
  • DebaserDebaser Member Posts: 669
    @Brude I always thought Imoen would have been a cool Swashbuckler...and I agree that Khalid would have been better as an Archer for sure. Or maybe a multi-class Fighter / Mage (his stats weren't bad for that) But's it's Minsc that stands out to me as actually NEEDING it because he's completely weird stat wise for what he is. Also if Arie is an impossible class combination to have in a Player Character, I don't see why dualing Minsc to Berserker or even Barbarian would be out of the question.
  • BrudeBrude Member Posts: 560
    @Debaser Yeah, actually you're dead right. Changing him in this fashion wouldn't alter the flavor of the character much, if at all.

    Full endorsement then with one caveat -- he'd have to retain his original stats.
  • The_New_RomanceThe_New_Romance Member Posts: 839
    Rangers can't dual-class into anything other than clerics, or can they? It would be just as strange as a ranger without the necessary wisdom. By the way, Aerie is a legal multiclass as she's not Elf but Avariel, and they are able to have MC mage/clerics as per 2E rules.

    In short, I don't think this is necessary. Leave the NPCs as they are. There are only very few instances where a certain kit or new class would totally make sense.
  • DebaserDebaser Member Posts: 669
    edited September 2012
    @elminster yes, he works fine just as he is, but he sort of peaks mid game whereas other characters don't. Jacks of all trades aren't as effective to be quite honest. Also his class doesn't really reflect his stats, his abilities, his personality role playing wise, his craziness post head-wound...I mean if he Dualed, he would still consider being a ranger to be his profession. He would still be the not very good ranger that he is. But he would grow as a berserker and get better at using his rage.

    The main PC has abilities that aren't normal...I'm not saying cool house rules abilities shouldn't be there, I'm saying Minsc is a more rewarding character when swapped to the Berserker class. He becomes a lot more fun. Fast. And higher levels continues to be a great addition, instead of a mediocre one with a fantastic personality.

    @The_New_Romance I know they can't dual, I said that it was a house rules kind of thing to allow for it. But in the story, he sustained a massive head-wound and lost most of his Intelligence and Wisdom. So much so that on the Pen and Paper side of it he'd receive penalties that the game doesn't compute in the previous incarnation. Minsc is an obvious fan favorite, but originally as @Brude said, he was designed to be a Barbarian (Spoof on Conan type thing), So they broke a bunch of rules to have a Ranger fit that mold. I think...going from there, using the kits that are implemented now, under the description of Berserker it maintains that everyone who becomes one has different reasons. It's centered around an emotional instability to paraphrase. And his head wound would explain and justify it. Plus his innate ability is essentially the same as the Berserker rage already....so over time he would just get to rage more often in a fight.
    Post edited by Debaser on
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,316
    Well dual wielding will be available in BGEE, so I would say that affords him plenty of opportunity to be as powerful as any fighter given the skill point limitations of BGEE.
  • DebaserDebaser Member Posts: 669
    @elminster This is more about when BG2 EE come out, he really scales poorly at higher levels because he gets a couple cleric spells that he shouldn't even be able to cast without a high chance of miscast. As a berserker his rage would be the thing that improves over time. It's way more fitting to his personality, and from experience in modding him out, he was just a lot better over time. Rock solid, not overpowered.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,316
    Doesn't he get druid spells? anyways I rarely ever even use his rage unless I am in a situation facing powerful mind effecting enemies or someone who loves imprisonment casting. Maybe his rage could be changed instead so that he doesn't go on a killing spree once he reaches a certain level, but I don't really see a need to make it any more powerful than it is. He is after all one of the best fighters in BG2. Especially if he has the gauntlets of dexterity on.

    I would have also added to my last post that the benefits to getting grand mastery are marginal at best, to the point that by the end of the game I doubt they would make much of a difference, but you beat me in your response to my attempts to edit it. Yes ok you get faster attack, do slightly more damage and have a slightly better chance to hit than if you specialise, but with all the buffs available in the game the benefits aren't that significant in my opinion. So I'll just end this rant by saying I really don't feel he needs to be changed.
  • DebaserDebaser Member Posts: 669
    edited September 2012
    (Druid, Cleric, yes...some low level Druid stuff...but technically his wisdom is too low for those spells) Also the Berserker is essentially the same it just doesn't have a hamster on the Icon...the difference is every four levels he gets another use per day. That's really the only change, and that he can go for specialization / grand mastery for anything that's not a ranged weapon. @Elminster I get your position, but those slight changes just made me a lot more solid in high level combat. And after using him for an entire game, you get sentimental. I hate trading him for Sarevok but the guy is way better otherwise in normal conditions.
  • DebaserDebaser Member Posts: 669
    (Additional note...Sarevok is still probably stronger...but it makes it easier to turn him down)
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,316
    Or you could accept him, and then cast imprisonment on him having removed as many items from him as you want. That seems like fair retribution for blackmailing you.
  • EquiptoEquipto Member Posts: 6
    karpasz said:

    According to lore, he should be a barbarian (however, there weren't kits nor barbarian class in 2nd edition).

    My AD&D 2nd Edition Barbarian Handbook would like a word with you.

  • DebaserDebaser Member Posts: 669
    @Equipto whatever he was meant to be...the voice acting is done with...his personality is formed, he is always going to be a ranger in his profession. But...the wound and how he acts...his rage....he is essentially a berserker...he's kind of barbarian-like, in that he's bohemian, but he's well mannered and nice to women...he's more of a woodsman than Conan you know? I just want his rage and the head-wound aspect to be played up in his development and skill growth more, since he's stats with Wisdom and Int take a huge dive do to back-story right from the start.

    Also I might have that handbook lying around somewhere too...hrmn.
  • SikorskySikorsky Member Posts: 402
    In my opinion, they mada him as ranger only because of Boo, His story definitly says his berserker. Minsc for berserkr. Kivan for archer,
  • kilroy_was_herekilroy_was_here Member Posts: 455
    Did everyone forget the real problem with dual-classing? That means that until his Barbarian or Berserker or whatever level exceeded his old Ranger level he would be unable to talk to Boo, as that was a feature of his old class!! Not talking to Boo would be a fate worse than... well pretty much anything.
  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    This is assuming that his ability to talk to Boo doesn't have anything to do with his head wound, which I'm pretty sure it does. ;)
  • DelinomDelinom Member Posts: 46
    edited September 2012
    Mazzy is a fighter who is referred to as "paladin" every single time by every other character. There's a lot of non-sense related to NPC classes.

    While we are at that, time to make a petiton to make Nalia thief/fighter. BG2 has 3 thief/mages and one pure thief that dies halfway through. That's it for rogue NPC's unless you dual Sarevok in ToB (I did). How does that make any sense?

    One more: Can Kivan be an actual Archer now instead of Ranger, since BG:EE has BG2 kits? Can Tiax please not suck this time around? Thanks.
  • ChippyChippy Member Posts: 241
    I always prreciated Misc for the irreverence he represented (to characters like Drizzt).
    Wasn't he based on someones's character who used hamsters as a means of setting off traps in dungeons?. If he stays a Ranger, he could have a special ability (like Morte's skull swarm) where he calls down a horde of hamsters to smite a target.

    Just kidding - but if any changes are made I hope Minsc I trust Overhaul not to make him too serious.
  • sandmanCCLsandmanCCL Member Posts: 1,389
    Kind of tired of people saying Tiax sucks. He's one of the best NPCs in BG1 if for his Ghast alone. Chances are with an evil aligned party, he's your best bet for gauntlets of ogre power too which then makes him sublime.
  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,318
    The way dual classing actually works I don't think this would be a good fit for Minsc. I sort like the idea in theory, and can see how it might be interesting conceptually. But I don't think I would enjoy it at all in practice.

    I pretty much agree with @The_New_Romance's take on it.
  • DebaserDebaser Member Posts: 669
    I am seriously thinking about submitting this as an official request in the Request Forum. Now keep in mind his stats wouldn't change, but his progression would yield more rages and he would have different options with specialization in melee. I might also ask that his original class of Barbarian be considered as well. But I wonder what you guys think about me making an official request.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,316
  • DemivrgvsDemivrgvs Member Posts: 315
    edited September 2012
    Debaser said:

    I am seriously thinking about submitting this as an official request in the Request Forum. Now keep in mind his stats wouldn't change, but his progression would yield more rages and he would have different options with specialization in melee. I might also ask that his original class of Barbarian be considered as well. But I wonder what you guys think about me making an official request.

    For many reasons (lore/background) Barbarian kit is much more appropriate than Berserker for Minsc. Now, theoretically my ideal solution would be to have Minsc start as a Ranger for a bunch of levels and then dual him to Barbarian (this solution also eliminates the "Minsc can cast spells" silliness in BG2) BUT...

    ...afaik BG engine doesn't support dual classing from a warrior class to another warrior class, so the whole discussion is kinda pointless. :(
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