Add Rapiers!
GaelicVigil
Member Posts: 111
They're awesome! Longswords, and scimitars just don't cut it for my Swashbuckler and Blade. The rapier is the classic weapon of choice for such archetypes. I'd love to see them in stores along the sword coast and a perhaps a couple magic ones sprinkled in as well.
Please?
Please?
7
Comments
That said, maybe a base speed factor of 3, with a bonus to speed factor for each +1 of its enchantment would make it worthwhile. So, spit-balling here:
Rapier (60gp)
Damage: 1d6 (piercing)
THAC0: Uses Dexterity instead of Strength to determine To-Hit bonus
Speed Factor: 3
Proficiency Type: Dagger
Usable By:
Rogue and Warrior classes only
Not sure how you'd code that, but that's what I would do. It lets dextrous characters have a melee weapon they can use without sacrificing AC. I would also want to restrict it so that it can't be used with a shield or an off-hand weapon.
Rapiers are plenty prevalent in fantasy, as are katanas and other eastern-inspired weapons.
We can increase the price to demonstrate a technology that's just coming into play (katanas are more expensive than long swords), and we can make all of these weapons more balanced overall so that they don't ruin the gameplay.
But let's leave wikipedia and cultural prejudice out of the discussion, shall we?
http://www.shsforums.net/topic/25681-a-bit-more-about-the-items/
I was unaware there were other "debates" about the medieval status of Faerun. That specific question isn't really at issue--what is fact is that the vast majority of combatants in BG1 are wearing chainmail-type armor and wielding Oakeshott Type XI-XIII swords, or axes. Bringing that kind of equipment to bear against an early modern samurai (a warrior from the era of firearms) is like bringing a knife to a gun fight.
How do you balance the game for bringing in rapiers without losing realism? Clearly, a 16th century weapon wielded with early modern technique would demolish every shortsword-wielding halfling in Faerun when it came to light combat. There would be no place for Frodo in that world, because the rapier wielding thief would totally outclass him. But no one fights with needly stabbing weapons in the chainmail + sword and board world because they are useless against those defenses... but that's not codeable into a game like Baldur's Gate. It's impossible to accurately depict the rapier in a game with D&D 2 rules because the only way you make rapiers playable is by making them seriously overpowered.
tl;dr: if rapiers were actually available AND effective, nobody would fight with anything else because they'd be overpowered against weapons from 5 centuries prior.
My comment was more about warding away the potential debate that tends to stir up when people start saying that there shouldn't be X in the game because X isn't a medieval European thing.
Your post is so full of inaccuracies, I don't know where to start. Nobody would fight with anything else? How about those people who lack the hand/eye coordination and years of training to fight effectively with a rapier? The rapier is useless to anyone who doesn't have the dexterity and dedication to use it.
Not only is it very difficult to use effectively, it is almost useless at parrying against heavy weapons and when making non-thrusting attacks. This isn't the weapon you want to use in a large scale battle with many close-quarter combatants or where there is limited mobility.
Shortswords are still useful because they require less skill, because they can swing in addition to piercing, and do not require as much spacing or maneuverability. BTW, Frodo never used a shortsword as depicted in the Jackson movies, "Sting" was a dagger or "elven knife".
A rapier should have a high speed factor, be able to inflict damage like a longsword, but disallow use of a shield to simulate the high balance requirement to use it.
This thing with realism. It's moot. Longbows and crossbows as depicted in D&D only started to be widely used during the 16th and 17th centuries respectively. Rapiers came only a short time after that. We have Katanas (which I think are WAY out of place in Faerun).
Also, there are plenty of places in Baldur's Gate and BG2 where steam engines and even rudimentary electric devices are used (Irenicus's dungeon anyone?). Rapiers in a world of steam-powered mechanisms becomes far less out of place in this instance..
Alright first, I don't think realism is moot at all. Sure it's a fantasy game but claiming that simply because it is fantasy, realism doesn't apply is a flawed point. The Forgotten Realms may be magical but Faerun still operates generally according to familiar laws. Your point about rapiers and their fighting style is just what I was going for actually. You use a rapier for unarmored combat with high mobility, I agree. That's great. It is, however, not a great fighting style against armored opponents. The rapier was a popular civilian weapon and used mostly for dueling. Weapons like that just didn't exist contemporaneously with mail and what D&D calls "longswords" which are might be more accurately "arming swords," because they came into existence when firearms (esp. the flintlock) drove armor and larger swords into obsoletion. I can't think of any way to balance the rapier such that it kicks a** against opponents wearing a tunic and but is terrible against opponents wearing armor and wielding a heavy sword. Realism question aside, I think it's impossible to just balance this out, which is what led to games like NWN2 being dominated by either oversized weapons, or Three Musketeer types. A far cry from the hack and slash of really any character in Baldur's Gate, and I'm glad for that. If you want to put rapiers into Baldur's Gate, fine--but if you do so, realize that that sort of weapon won't make a dent against a plate mail wearing, two-hander wielding demigod. Or even a large, mailed, hamster-keeping brute. Combat in BG still tries to function relatively according to the laws of physics.
Your point about longbows and crossbows is incorrect, neither one saw much use into the 16th century, and certainly not the 17th century. Crossbows were very common on the battlefield from the end of the Dark Ages toward the end of Late Middle Ages, longbows were in use from the latter years of the High Middle Ages and into the early 1500s. Firearms drove them into obsoletion as well.
And as for Sting? The movies did a fine job of depicting Sting. It was a dagger for elves or humans, but "it was as good as a short sword for the hobbit" (quoting the book). That's about the size relation Frodo/Bilbo have to Sting in the movies.
When I said nobody would use anything else, I was specifically referring to martial characters, those who obviously have the time to train for combat and the agility to fight effectively. If you make rapiers effective weapons against armored opponents or those wielding large shields, that relegates all but the largest slashing weapons obsolete for those who are warriors. Sure, average joes might just buy a club instead but I'm assuming the PC is not an average joe.
Oh and the katana's heyday began in the late the Muromachi period (gunpowder begins to take hold in combat) and ran until as late as the 19th century.
Instead, let's look at the balance of the weapon itself.
It's a piercing weapon, first--which means that it shouldn't be as effective against metal armors like splint mail or full plate. I believe these penalties are already built into the armors themselves (piercing weapons in general are less effective against metal armor).
Second, the bit about THAC0 being imbalanced by using Dexterity instead of Strength--okay, I'll go with that. It removes any need for a thief to have a high strength for melee, which although I disagree with it, there's nothing else within the current BG system that does this, so it should probably follow suit.
So what we're really talking about here is a scimitar that deals piercing damage instead of slashing. And I don't think that's all that unbalanced.
Sarevok scoffs at fencing.
Then I would give Biral, this fictional NPC, a low enough Strength score to give him a damage penalty. The rapier becomes his only melee capability, while still allowing him to contribute during battle. (In case it wasn't clear, I imagine this NPC appearing in BG2, not BG1.)
I doubt that no one fences anywhere in Faerun; more likely it's just not a common weapon for adventurers. But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
I personally would give it the Wikazashi/Ninja-to treatment - make them fair ( @Aosaw gave excellent potential stats), but being the finesse/exotic weapons that they are, rarer than most (but not unheard of).
Also, @Dux89, I'd like to point out that Rapiers already exist in the Forgotten Realms, and have for some time. They were available in 2nd edition, even (although not in the Player's Handbook, they are outlined in the Fighter's Handbook and the Thieves Handbook), so it is not unreasonable to add them to Baldur's Gate. Balancing them would be simple - just make them piercing, as Aosaw suggested. Plate armor already offers resistance (in form of AC or damage reduction, I don't recall) to piercing damage, so they'd be fantastic against lightly or unarmored targets, but fair much more poorly against armored ones. Not useless, but not great, either.
Nothing wrong with "finesse" fighters--I play as a high dex elf Ranger type in every CRPG I own--but there is a reason that lighter arms were more styled like short swords than rapiers in the Middle Ages (again, history shows reasoning here)... Rapiers just don't really do much at all against a shirt of chain, something that short swords can actually overcome.
For an amazingly in depth look, the Association for Renaissance Martial Arts webpage:
http://www.thearma.org/Youth/rapieroutline.htm
Lots of info there, including why rapiers and heavier, slashing weapons did not coexist, and the point of the rapier being fighting unarmored opponents, not for taking into a large battle. "The rapier was distinct in Western European sword history in that it represented a specialization of design—that is, a weapon optimized for unarmored single-combat rather than fighting most anywhere, anytime, or under any conditions. It was strictly a personal weapon, never used or intended for war or battlefield. However, what a rapier arguably did best was fight another rapier."
Ok so if you want to just make a game out of people dueling Romeo and Juliet style, maybe steampunk flavor, that's cool. Having played NWN2 and DDO, I'll take BG's rapierless world instead.
@Aosaw, in the beginning of the game, Sarevok stands on the roof covered in metal in a lightning storm... serious sanity concerns, that guy.
By the idea of rapiers it also demands that there be gunpowder, I don't like the renisance age, where some centuries before that was much cooler.
Which is all great and good, but the Forgotten Realms are NOT REAL REALITY. Rapiers are already present in a wide variety of places (in-game example of Neverwinter Nights, a game set in the Forgotten Realms city Neverwinter placed on the Sword Coast). Baldur's Gate is not set on a separate world - it's the same exact place.
Rapiers are light swords, and that can be VERY useful in a lot of situations - for instance, on the sea by pirates and sailors, where armor was rare (because falling in the ocean with armor on is a very quick way to die horribly) and heavy weapons were rare as well because... for the same exact reason as armor, really. Personal defense also comes to mind - while it may not be as good as a larger sword, rapiers are much longer than daggers and shortswords, which means that it has the advantage of reach over what most cutthroats are going to threaten you with after a late night of barhopping.
You also seem to be assuming that every fight in Baldur's Gate should measure up to the standards of a heavy battle and equipment choices are not allowed to be a question of preference on the character's part. Just because rapiers are much more commonly portrayed as personal defense weapons doesn't mean they can't find their ways into the hands of an adventurer - if anything, that makes it even MORE likely for adventurers to get ahold of rapiers. They offer reach while being light, and require less materials to construct than your standard longsword, so it would stand to reason that they're cheaper. In addition to that, a character's weapon says a great deal about the character, despite the fact that every available weapon was designed for a very specific purpose and are not always being used in the appropriate situation (for instance, a spear in a tight-quarters fight, or a scimitar against a heavily armored enemy).
@HexHammer
No, it doesn't. The Forgotten Realms =/= real reality. Rapiers have been present in the Forgotten Realms for a long time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_and_Equipment_Guide
I believe they did 1d6+1 piercing damage or something, though aVENGER_RR found slightly different stats in a different supplement (I think the Rogue Rebalancing mod also adds them).
http://readme.spellholdstudios.net/readme_rr.html
These kinds of requests are best handled by mods if you ask me. That way if someone doesn't like the idea, the solution is simple: don't install the mod. Makes more sense than have pages of debate about it.
The DEX bonus to hit with the rapier seems cool but I can see it being a huge problem. This is more a fault of 2e rules than the weapon itself. In reality, your ability to hit with all weapons would be affected by your dexterity. In my mind it's a problem when only one weapon grants a DEX bonus. If the rapier gets this bonus, then all weapons should too...or at least the small weapons (short swords and daggers). Otherwise thieves of all types would flock to the rapier (and bow) and pretty much nothing else.
I *love* 3e's weapon finesse for that reason. I actually think thieves' should be given this property for free, but meh. They're pretty kickass in 3e anyway.
I'd suggest you start. Baldur's Gate is set in the Forgotten Realms.
@Miloch
Personally, I'm perfectly okay with it being relegated to "mod only" status. It'd be neat to have it in the main game, but I'm not going to get upset if it isn't. I'm just going to argue it to death because I'm one of those people that can't stand others being wrong on the internet.
@Silence
I also love Weapon Finesse. One of the best feats, in my opinion, because it provides so many options.
Edit: @Silence - there could be a potential conflict between strength and deterity bonuses for weapons, but personally I could see short swords and daggers getting a DEX bonus. The trick is knowing where to strike with them accurately (for thieves and such who would typically wield them) rather than just jabbing indiscriminately with force. In fact, most piercing weapons should favour DEX whereas most slashing and clubbing weapons would favour strength IMO.
Also, considering that BGEE is getting all of the classes and kits from BG2, it makes sense that we get some more equipment options. We no longer just have Rogues, and Fighters that use Daggers and Swords. We have something in between: Swashbucklers and Blades - neither Rogues nor Fighters. It makes sense to provide some weapon and armor options that stand between daggers and swords, does it not?
This goes beyond a mod. I'm not even asking for changes to game systems such as dexterity instead of strength attack modifiers. This is more for flavor than anything else, with a few rapiers scattered in some of the stores and chests around the Sword Coast. For those people who don't like these kind of weapons in Baldur's Gate, I don't like katanas, electricity and steam engines either. But rapiers at least make more sense than than these items in Faerun. Let's face it, rapiers have been a part of Swords & Sorcery fantasy for a very long time. Yes, they are slightly outside the medieval timeline, but the swashbuckler/duelist/pirate is too cool to not be a part of this setting.