If we were to compare reality to fantasy, then I am pretty damn sure half the realms would now be naked of any metal armor and any archer would use crossbows, simply because of it's insane piercing abilities.
BUT we have fantasy - where slings have the potential of being better than crossbows and arrows create explosive fireballs.
I don't see why not adding Rapiers. I have 4 real ones in my own bedroom. A Prussian, an Austro-Hungarian, a Germanic and a... god knows what really. I have *no* idea how to use them. Simply because I own them, it doesn't mean I could be able to beat a Spartan hoplite with them. Heck, I even got a Flintlock Pistol and even with that I wouldn't be able to beat them.
Story's teachings - Fantasy isn't real life for someone's sake.
This talk of rapiers being a post-medieval invention is a bit inaccurate. Rapiers of a sort were made as early as the Bronze Age, thousands of years before the medieval era.
Granted, they weren't all quite the same as the stereotypical Renaissance fencing rapier, but I have seen some that are very long and thin. You might think bronze would be an impractical material for making such weapons, but apparently the smiths and wielders did not, judging from the number of intact surviving examples (many of which show signs of heavy use but not breakage).
Also it is quite possible and effective to use a rapier even against an opponent in heavy armour with a broadsword. The trick is to tap, parry, dodge, lunge and counterthrust into strategic unprotected spots. In fact, you could do a lot more damage with such tactics than if you were countering with another broadsword, which in most cases would just rebound off the armour.
That article makes it explicit that the premedieval weapons they are calling "rapiers" are not like the rapiers you are thinking of, but more like long knives. Most rapiers are single-edged, some don't even have edges. Ignoring the fact that it really isn't really feasible to use a rapier effectively against heavy armor (or else... people would have done it), why not just add guns as well? What's wrong with guns?
A fencing rapier is a useless weapon, whether it's an epee, foil, or sabre. Fencing swords are designed for sport contests, not pitched combat.
The rapiers described in the article to which Miloch linked are rapiers designed for war, weapons that are designed for agility and reach, and much more feasible for an adventurer's use.
The whole point of that article was that though they are called "rapiers" they are "nothing like" what you are thinking of, and are simply thrusting weapons that resemble long knives. We already have that in BG. If you want to call a dirk-like weapon a rapier, that's fine. But this article is not about the type of rapier you are advocating--it is also points out the ineffectiveness of the early Bronze Age weapon against the later Bronze Age and Iron Age equipment, especially since these swords lacked a "tang" (the piece of metal that runs into the hilt) and therefore were not sturdy and fell apart easily. Blades with tangs driving into hilts, where hands are protected by crossguards, are vastly superior.
So if you want these kinds of weapons in BG, fine, if they're doing 1d4 and receive major penalties against armor. You would be handicapping yourself to take one into a fight.
@Dux89 - that is just one article I referenced. A lot of the so-called rapiers are more like dirks or short swords. But as I said in my post, I've seen actual examples of Bronze Age rapiers that are similar in form and could be used quite similarly to Renaissance rapiers, without obvious embellishments such as basket hilts etc. (at least, probably not from the surviving evidence, though such things would not survive well in the archaeological record).
Like I said, this is best left to modding territory, folks. Don't like it? Don't install the mod. Same goes for guns - there are AD&D campaigns where those are permitted as well (early ones obviously, not AK-47s).
I like the idea of adding rapiers. The rapier and dagger seems a very appropriate weapon for the Shadow Thieves of Baldur's Gate. They always strike me as being a fairly Elizabethan/Jacobean bunch of chaps.
Rapiers are in "The Complete Book of Fighters", which is 2nd Edition. Why not add them then? I don't understand the argument against it. Hell, there's firearms in Forgotten Realms too in the later timeline.
The biggest argument I can think of against adding rapiers to BG:EE is that there is no need for them, nor the required effort it would take to create the animations, BAMs, and new item descriptions required to make them worthwhile--much less any magical versions, which would then also have to be placed throughout the Sword Coast.
Then you have to decide if they're going to be a new proficiency type, and if not, which proficiency type they should use. You have to figure out what mechanics they'll use, if those are balanced, how much they should cost, etc.
I think it's probably more effort than is worthwhile, but I'd like to see something like this in a mod somewhere if it's done well. I know I'd probably use it.
The biggest argument I can think of against adding rapiers to BG:EE is that there is no need for them
There really is no need for adding new NPCs, adding the Black Pits content, or overhauling the interface either. Hell, there's no reason to play games at all. Human beings only *need* food, water, and shelter to survive.
My point was that there are already a lot of different weapon types, and adding a new weapon type to the core game is unnecessary when there are a lot of weapon types that are still sorely lacking in terms of what variations are available.
I would rather, for instance, see a +3 club and a +2 flaming bastard sword, than a bunch of non-magical rapiers.
To make rapiers interesting, you'd have to give them something that no other weapon has. Which means that by creating them, you effectively make some other weapons obsolete.
That said, I did mention that it was the *biggest* argument I could think of against adding rapiers. You'll note that earlier in this thread I said that I did like the idea of rapiers in general.
Considering that there are Forgotten Realms novels with characters using katanas and rapiers the whole "katanas and rapiers don't belong in Faerûn" is moot.
Comments
BUT we have fantasy - where slings have the potential of being better than crossbows and arrows create explosive fireballs.
I don't see why not adding Rapiers. I have 4 real ones in my own bedroom. A Prussian, an Austro-Hungarian, a Germanic and a... god knows what really. I have *no* idea how to use them. Simply because I own them, it doesn't mean I could be able to beat a Spartan hoplite with them. Heck, I even got a Flintlock Pistol and even with that I wouldn't be able to beat them.
Story's teachings - Fantasy isn't real life for someone's sake.
http://www.tf.uni-kiel.de/matwis/amat/def_en/articles/rapier_to_longsax/from_rapier_to_langsax.html
Granted, they weren't all quite the same as the stereotypical Renaissance fencing rapier, but I have seen some that are very long and thin. You might think bronze would be an impractical material for making such weapons, but apparently the smiths and wielders did not, judging from the number of intact surviving examples (many of which show signs of heavy use but not breakage).
Also it is quite possible and effective to use a rapier even against an opponent in heavy armour with a broadsword. The trick is to tap, parry, dodge, lunge and counterthrust into strategic unprotected spots. In fact, you could do a lot more damage with such tactics than if you were countering with another broadsword, which in most cases would just rebound off the armour.
The rapiers described in the article to which Miloch linked are rapiers designed for war, weapons that are designed for agility and reach, and much more feasible for an adventurer's use.
So if you want these kinds of weapons in BG, fine, if they're doing 1d4 and receive major penalties against armor. You would be handicapping yourself to take one into a fight.
Like I said, this is best left to modding territory, folks. Don't like it? Don't install the mod. Same goes for guns - there are AD&D campaigns where those are permitted as well (early ones obviously, not AK-47s).
Then you have to decide if they're going to be a new proficiency type, and if not, which proficiency type they should use. You have to figure out what mechanics they'll use, if those are balanced, how much they should cost, etc.
I think it's probably more effort than is worthwhile, but I'd like to see something like this in a mod somewhere if it's done well. I know I'd probably use it.
My point was that there are already a lot of different weapon types, and adding a new weapon type to the core game is unnecessary when there are a lot of weapon types that are still sorely lacking in terms of what variations are available.
I would rather, for instance, see a +3 club and a +2 flaming bastard sword, than a bunch of non-magical rapiers.
To make rapiers interesting, you'd have to give them something that no other weapon has. Which means that by creating them, you effectively make some other weapons obsolete.
That said, I did mention that it was the *biggest* argument I could think of against adding rapiers. You'll note that earlier in this thread I said that I did like the idea of rapiers in general.