What constitutes cheating & what rules do you set for yourself ?
Lock
Member Posts: 84
Lately I've begun to wonder what constitutes 'cheating' to most people. As a kid I beat the game straight down the line a few times, before I learnt of short-cuts etc and started power-gaming it up. More recently I tend to:
1. Remove the XP cap.
2. Multiple play-throughs with a single character - largely for the purposes of getting multiple tomes.
3. Start as a fighter and then dual-class to what I really want to be for extra HP and THACO.
4. Glitch potions of speed to sprint everywhere.
That last one is obviously about as dodgy as you get without hitting Ctrl-Tab, and I usually only do it for a character's 2nd and subsequent play-throughs. However playing BG again recently it feels unsatisfying - like I might as well just use gatekeeper to make a 25/25/25/25/25/25 beast .. (although that's never my objective). I'm wondering what rules people set for themselves to enjoy the game, keep it a challenge, feel legit etc.
I don't mod and while I wouldn't mind a nice mod package that removed some of the cheesier combat tactics and made the game harder I've no interest in using tutu (again).
@Quartz I think I remember you commenting about hardcore runs, and that's starting to sound very interesting to me - and very legit. Is there a guide or ruleset ?
1. Remove the XP cap.
2. Multiple play-throughs with a single character - largely for the purposes of getting multiple tomes.
3. Start as a fighter and then dual-class to what I really want to be for extra HP and THACO.
4. Glitch potions of speed to sprint everywhere.
That last one is obviously about as dodgy as you get without hitting Ctrl-Tab, and I usually only do it for a character's 2nd and subsequent play-throughs. However playing BG again recently it feels unsatisfying - like I might as well just use gatekeeper to make a 25/25/25/25/25/25 beast .. (although that's never my objective). I'm wondering what rules people set for themselves to enjoy the game, keep it a challenge, feel legit etc.
I don't mod and while I wouldn't mind a nice mod package that removed some of the cheesier combat tactics and made the game harder I've no interest in using tutu (again).
@Quartz I think I remember you commenting about hardcore runs, and that's starting to sound very interesting to me - and very legit. Is there a guide or ruleset ?
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Comments
Some games are more enjoyable for me if I cheat. I want to hear the opinion of the dude at "7/11 equipment store", rather than spend too much time fighting a difficult dragon that can't talk. :P In Dragon Age, I added Cloud's sword from FF7, and cheated it to have god-like stats. I could solo-kill dragons in 10-20 hits alone. To me it is more important to solve a situation multiple times, and then ponder which option is the most ethical thing to do and then roll with that.
I also like to learn about story-telling in general. I like to think about why one character is really great and memorable, while the other one is very forgettable.
For the record, if your using an exploit you may as well just open up gate keeper and cheat what you want, exploits are unintended by the developers, thats why they are called exploits.
01. I kept track of all my characters stats and thieving ability scores from BG1 (Original) In a small word file for record keeping.
02. I used Dungeon Keeper to change Jaheria's and Minsc's Stats to reflect their stats in BG2, because I feel they're just a bit better all around this way.
03. I played on the "INSANE" difficulty setting.
04. I actually spread my tomes around. For instance I gave Minsc the Strength Tome so he would have a Strength of 19. I gave Imoen the Int Tome so she would be at 18 Int and the Charisma Tome to bump her to 17 so she could represent us at shops (and eventually Dueled her over to a mage), and I gave Jaheria the Dex Tome, giving her an 18 Dex, and the Constitution Tome, bumping her to 18 Con. The Wisdom Tome however, went to my Main Character.
05. Everyone was proficient in different weapon types on purpose. Minsc In Particular focused on Long Swords and tanked.
06. My main Character was a Cleric / Ranger Multi-class with the Gold +2 Warhammer +1 Electrical who was also pretty much an equally good tank with Minsc due to Holy Might. (Also because of Crom Faeyr in BG2, I figured his strength just needed to be pretty good...but I did roll for awhile to get some decent scores.
07. Then when I ported over to BG2, I used Shadow Keeper to set everyone's stats to where they were at the end of BG1. And I turned Minsc into a Beserker because it wouldn't let me Dual Class him. (which is because I strongly feel he should be a Ranger / Beserker dual class due to his head wound.
08. I tried to avoid reloading at all costs, and only had to a few times in BG1....in BG2 however, Insane had some rough moments.
Most of what I was doing was about planning party stats so everyone would shine and do well, not just my PC. I liked that run the best to be honest out of all my games. It felt like a great team. Keldorn and Arie were my new picks in BG2, I don't really love Arie but I couldn't think of anyone better to take on a Neutral Good run.
I install all the fixpacks and apply anything that doesn't appear to directly contradict the intention of the developers with regards to difficulty.
I do however use Shadow/Dale Keeper sparingly when I run across various things, like a fighter/druid dual-class needing to have a minimum of 15 charisma. That's just ridiculous, and I dump that charisma back into another stat after making the switch. I tried, lord how I tried, to finagle a way to make my half-orc cleric/thief dual-class somehow, but not even SK can do that. (why is a question best left elsewhere...) Also if I miss any important items in areas impossible to return to, I'll SK em in.
Its been a while since I messed with Shadowkeeper, but try making your half-orc a human in it, loading the save game up and dual classing, then hop back on SK and turn him back into a half-orc.
However, I have heard a few things. Such as only saving every new Chapter, which is talking really, really hardcore run. A better way to start getting into hardcore runs is to accept NPC deaths (including chunk deaths) and not load the game, ever, unless of course your PC dies and you have to. Definitely not impossible, you're going to have to run to a lot of temples but yeah. Just in general, your common "hardcore run" is avoiding loading the game ever unless you are forced to from your PC dying. You failed to learn a spell? Oh well, it's gone. Imoen got chunked? Oh well, she's gone. All that jazz. Keep the EXP cap, too, of course, and avoid exploits. And I would say avoid secret stashes too, those are kinda easter eggs that throw off the balance of the game a bit. But that depends on who you ask.
But yeah, I haven't found a real guide. Although if you ask me, *not* having a guide leaves even more room for adventure. Ruleset, idk, but I probably posted just about all of them.
Other than that, we personally have a no rules standard. Some other people limit their total dice count. Some people decide to limit gear. It's all up to the person. But most hardcore runs simply mean no reloading.
Also you need 17 minumum charisma AND wisdom to dual-class from fighter into druid. Whenever I plan on doing this, I tend to leave strength at 15, and only get 14 wisdom and 16 charisma, boosting wisdom and charisma with the tomes. I then rely on Gauntlets of Ogre Power in BG1 and then the belts of WTFstrength in BG2.
But then again, I managed to get a godly roll today (yes I am playing through BG1 vanilla out of spite for BG:EE getting delayed) and I managed to get 18/40 strenth, 17 dex and 18 constitution. Only has 3 intelligence, 14 wisdom, 16 charisma. I wasn't going to dual-class him til BG2 anyway (right at level 10), so it worked out.
I named him Dorkly.
Cheats: Ctrl+Y, boosting stats of your main and recruitables, Teleporting, creating items manually via the CLUAConsole, etc etc.
Cheese: Installing mods that break the game system, i.e. increasing the minimum stat roll, unbalanced kits (like the death knight with Tactics), level 1 NPC mod, altering classes of NPCs via shadowkeeper, giving your levels max HP, adjusting mage/druid/cleric spell progression.
My stance on these 2:
Cheats - flat out cheating. Avoid where possible, it cheapens the game.
Cheese - changes the original balance. If you're playing vanilla this is as bad as cheating, however this is offset when installing ridiculous difficulty mods, such as Tactics, Ascension, Sword Coast Stratagems, etc. I like to call this combo Cheese and Mold.
I've found that cheese is ok as long as you balance it with mold
P.S LOOK A DISTRACTION!
My best rolls in 14 years were total point wise
99 Paladin
99 Fighter
98 Ranger
96 Thief
95 Priest
@sandmanCCL "Considering half-orcs don't have any bonuses at all except for their starting rolls, just hack a human to have your half-orc's stats and pretend he's an orc."
That's a great idea, i will modify it slightly in that i will Roll an actual Orc, go through the entire setup and accept the final official role only then will it feel OK to my OCD
@Lock again about the main topic rather then say your a cheat at this or that I'll explain what personally consider is or isn't a cheat.
I consider essentially anything not just a cosmetic change a cheat for me personally, I'll explain and
after 14 years you can really see the OCD that has sneaked in for me in this game
What i consider IS a cheat-
-NOT Playing Hardcore DEAD is DEAD
-changing from Core rules to an easier setting on harder fights
-Anything that's not a cosmetic only change (*with one exception for testing purposes)
-Getting the Anhkeg plate in Nashkel (There is only supposed to be one according to the description of the item "made for you")
-Algernon's Cloak its ridiculously overpowered and ruins the game so its cheat for me
-Doing the small tutorial in CandleKeep, getting all the items from the pretend party, saving the game exporting into a new game and getting free magical items
-Killing the same people over and over again in CandleKeep and export and repeating the process over and over
-Recruiting NPC's just to get there stuff
-NOT soloing (might not solo the first time around with BG:EE just to hear the banter but will turn off AI and keep NPCs out of fights and them must NOT be hit or used in any way in combat)
-Removing the XP Cap (Obviously)
-Reloading if failing to charm someone.
What is NOT a cheat-
-Playing Hardcore DEAD is DEAD
-Using the potion of Haste in the small tutorial in CandleKeep
-Killing people in Candle Keep for XP one time only
-*Testing out characters and combos against hard bosses using CLUA codes to see results (I love trying weird unconventional variants out) you may NOT use this character to play the main game obviously or it would be a cheat
-Killing NPC's to get their stuff
-Soloing
-Using one NPC to get Helm of Defense since it's the only way to get the item without dying
-Changing appearance (just appearance no stats) of weapons or armor (EG. Make Baldurs Helmet look like a winged helmet and make Drizzts sword appear to look like Ashideena the war hammer)
-Rolling for the highest possible stats, even if it takes weeks for a really good roll
-Changing game portraits or character sounds
-Resting to heal wounds
that's about all right now i can think of
Cheating:
1. If you start gliching items for whatever reason, IT IS cheating.
2. If you modify stuff like XP cap or stats, IT IS cheating.
3. If you reload to get a benefit that is repetitive and doesn't require much efford(like gaining xp from Machine of Lum the Mad), IT IS cheating. I don't consider resting and killing monsters for xp to be cheating.
4. If you transfer items or modify content via 3d party game tools(lets say Cheat Engine), IT IS cheating.
Not cheating:
1. If you use game gliches to help your combat tactics, IT IS NOT cheating.
2. If you rest to heal wounds, IT IS NOT cheating.
3. If you reroll to get max stats, IT IS NOT cheating.
4. If you play vanilla, IT IS NOT cheating.
5. If you change game portraits, sounds or language, IT IS NOT cheating.
6. If you play BG instead of spending time with your girlfriend/boyfriend(wife/husband),
IT IS NOT cheating.
I don't consider removing the XP cap a cheat. But that is because I always played with SCS/SCS II installed which makes combat considerably tougher. XP cap removal doesn't seem to result in an unfair advantage. The encounter AI scripts are scaled to level, I think.
I do use meta-knowledge. I can't really pretend that I don't know something as a character that I actually do know as a player. If I'm playing a mage I do want that Ring of Wizardry, and know where both can be obtained. I'll follow the plot but along the way I do know where and how to get them, and will.
What else... If during character creation I'm continually getting poor dice rolls after a few minutes I'll use Ctrl + 8 and pare down the stats to something reasonable. I'll use Ctrl + J to traverse areas I have already cleared. I'll use the hotkey (I forget which it is) to illuminate interact-able items after I've already been to an area a few times. Etc.
But mainly, inasmuch as I can, I do try to play according to the concept that I have for my character, and what he would actually do in that gameworld. So for example, I would not 'powerlevel' by soloing the bassilisk if the character wouldn't do that. I.e., I do try to "roleplay" the character to whatever extent I can.
A BGT run I played with a Wild Mage serves as a good example. He gathered a party of Chaotic NPCs , and his spell selection really made full use of Wild Magic. (I used the excellent Wild mage Addtions mod.) Similarly, if I were to play an Illusionist, I would have the PC cast Illusion spells first and foremost.
1. No Traps (I find traps to be among the most unbalanced things in the game and just ignore them all together)
2. Modded or No Staff of the Magi (Invis + weapon swapping this item becoms as broken as it can get so either ignore the item or remove the invis effect with mods).
3. No killing NPCs while trying to start a dialogue with them.
4. No blind attacks into the fog unless my party would know that there are enemies there.
5. Fine to remove XP cap in BG2, I however keep the cap in BG1.
6. Stealing some items before certain fights (to get two of the item) is a cheat but I tend to do it anyway.
other then that I play as legit/RP as possible not abusing poor AI or do (mass) murder (unless that's the kind of character I 'm playing) to get XP and items (both XP and money is easy to get anyways).
Ohh, and using SK to do a multi/dual class with a kit is fine and can be quite fun.
Finished stats are below. Starting stats were a combined total of 90 when I started.
Then I Started rolling a Paladin and was getting combined scores between 88 and 94. Have about 8 screenshots of my scores between 88 and 94. Took me about 7-8 minutes to roll all these.
Settled on this 90 score Paladin because of his uber STR 18/95.
This was my 94 Paladin but his STR isn't as good so I ditched him.
Highest score I've ever rolled for a Paladin is a 96. Still have the screen shot. As for cheating, I've never cheated with BG1 or BG2. Never used the clua console as I've never needed to.
It adds some variety to try Minsc as a Barbarian, etc. and see how it plays out. I know you can create your own custom party but I don't want to miss out on the party interactions.
I will limit how far I go for characters whose classes are a big deal to the plot because I don't want to have dialogue that is out of character (like I would run Jaheira as a pure Druid, Druid kit or Ranger/Cleric but not something that didn't have the Druid aspect to her class).
1) Roll for stats with every new character. No Ctrl-8s and no Shadowkeeper.
2) No meta gaming. If my characters wouldn't reasonably know something, I can't play them as if they do.
3) No equipping unidentified items.
4) No reloads on bad results. (Level up HP, pickpocketing, scribing, etc.).
5) Make sure Edwin equips the Girdle of Masculinity/Feminity 'by accident' at least once per game.
Breaking these rules isn't 'cheating,' per se, but I started playing in a stricter fashion because the vanilla game gets boring without constraints. The longer my party struggles on a fight per fight basis, the more fun and rewarding the end result tends to be.
(I love playing the game, but I would never claim to be any good at it. The way I see it is that the game is fun when I win and not fun when I lose; and I play games to have fun).
@Lock Let us know the source for that pic. I'd like to try it out someday.