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Ability to Mod Races

ArndasArndas Member Posts: 42
First off, I would like to say that I greatly appreciate the ability to mod more things than in previous versions.

The ability to add selectable, functioning new races (and subraces) to character generation has been largely impossible since the game's release in 1998. Will there be any changes (or at least attempts to change) to this in future updates?

For those who don't know, the game has been unwelcoming to any additions to the base seven races. The game will not display new additions, and if it does, the new races are seriously bugged, rendering them unusable. There have been attempted workarounds in the past, but they don't add functioning races during character generation. Recently (either through SoD or perhaps before), the entry "Tiefling" works as a selectable, usable race. There is still a problem though. It is only a new race in name. In all other regards, it is the "elf" race. Same bonuses to attributes, bonuses to sword+bow, same sprite. The only difference is that the name shows up as "tiefling." From what I know, there is no way to change that, even if you edit the "correct" files.

I think "goblin" and "aasimar" are selectable as well, but they just function as humans. So going back to the main question, will there be a way to add new races that are independent of the base seven and perhaps be able to add subraces?

RAM021

Comments

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  • ArndasArndas Member Posts: 42
    Hmm, good point. It is unfortunate that a different engine is likely needed. I don't know nearly as much as I would need to know to port a game, and I am not that much of a fan of the IWD2 engine to boot. It would be nice to have some of the IWD2 engine, but not the 3E ruleset, different UI and graphics etc.

  • InsultionInsultion Member Posts: 179
    Hard-coded doesn't make it a law of nature, just a challenge to overcome. IWD2 left pristine but given a new UI would be perfect, however, in response to @Arndas

  • CahirCahir Member, Moderator, Translator (NDA) Posts: 2,531
    Ok, but if you create 3 elf subraces but they all will be seen to the engine as just Elf, would this choke the game?

  • SjerrieSjerrie Member Posts: 1,195
    I had not yet seen Tiefling as selectable! Interesting, it's been on my mind since way before the EE's were a thing.

    The Tiefling most likely got the basic functionality to facilitate Haer'Dalis as an NPC, which was then expanded upon by scripting him instead of race hard coding. I do know that many race functionality could be added or modified through EEKeeper, but that might be a hassle.

    Likewise, every character that recognizes you in-dialogue as an elf, dwarf, etc. would recognize you as Tiefling, since that works by a relatively simple readout. The problem is that there are no truly unique interactions for Tieflings, since the main game's dialogue didn't account for them. You'd have to mod the dailogue and add things like RACE_TIEFLING or something.

    I never found the sprite a problem actually. IMHO they aren't detailed enough to account for the slight facial oddities of the planetouched. Remember, these are 2e/3e Tieflings, not the abominations from 4e. ;)

  • lroumenlroumen Member Posts: 2,127
    Instead of making the races selectable in the gui, you could just make a script that shape changes you permanently into the race and gives you associated bonuses and pitfalls.

  • ArndasArndas Member Posts: 42
    @cahir well, the problem with the races being seen as one of the base seven means that they get the same attribute changes, combat bonuses etc. So with tieflings, they get a +1 to dex and a -1 to con, just like elves. They get the +1 with swords and bows, just like elves. They have the same class limitations as elves. Unfortunately, there is no way to change this, even if you edit the .2da files that correspond to the above.

    Subraces like duergar, gray elves, wood elves, deep gnomes and so on all have their own attribute modifiers and combat bonuses. Having them be the same as their base seven kind of defeats the point.

    Wise_Grimwald
  • ArndasArndas Member Posts: 42
    @Iroumen Yeah, I think this was one of the workarounds in the past. Even though it works, it would still be cool (and maybe easier if you could make them like classes) to have them show up during character creation.

  • Wise_GrimwaldWise_Grimwald Member Posts: 2,943
    Back in Tutu days, you had to choose a sub-race subsequent to character creation in Finn JOs subrace mod. It worked quite well though there were one or two bugs. One was that a certain race should have had +1 * in axes. What it did was set the proficiency to one in axes so you had to use keeper to correct it after creation. What was good was that the different sub-races actually looked different.

    I don't know if that mod is EE compatible. That ought to be determined. Why spend time making a mod if the work is already done?

  • fluke13fluke13 Member Posts: 375
    I'm currently playing a Drow through IWDEE, it's fun, but you need to keep an eye on day blindness.

    ryhhkkwluhdh.bmp

    Wise_Grimwald
  • Wise_GrimwaldWise_Grimwald Member Posts: 2,943
    lroumen wrote: »
    Instead of making the races selectable in the gui, you could just make a script that shape changes you permanently into the race and gives you associated bonuses and pitfalls.

    That is what FinnJOs mod used to do in the Tutu era. For instance the +2 strength modifier for Arctic Dwarves didn't change the basic stat but added 2 to strength as a modification. Doing it that way had both positive and negative aspects. [There's no way that you can please everyone. You just have to make a decision and stick with it]

  • fluke13fluke13 Member Posts: 375
    For my own game, I use a modified version of FinnJOs, updated for the new EE ability to easily show the race on the character screen. FinnJo uses spells and other people have posted items... So I use both. At the start of the game, you choose a subrace, then get hit by the spell and the item is equipped. For most races colour changes seem to work better than changing the animation. If you do go full animation change then it's limited. I can live with limited combat animations, but do like a paper doll. Weirdly there is a gnoll paper doll already, a goblin one thanks to M'Khin, I made a kobold one.

    Clearly I can't share my modified version of someone else's mod, but if anyone is interested in releasing a new subrace mod, it's a project id be interested in. The first thing I'd ask is a list of widely accepted races, along with what modifiers to give them. I like FinnJo's race selection which basically has your first race from character creation deciding your subrace. My only changes to that so far have been goblin, kobold, half goblin, half kobold, gnoll, half gnoll, wild dwarf, half dwarf.

    Wise_Grimwald
  • Wise_GrimwaldWise_Grimwald Member Posts: 2,943
    @fluke13 That sounds to be exactly what I would like to have. Do I take it that FinnJO's mod doesn't work with EE? I can manage without the extra additions: i.e. goblin, kobold, half goblin, half kobold, gnoll, half gnoll, wild dwarf, half dwarf.

  • fluke13fluke13 Member Posts: 375
    I'm not 100% sure tbh... I never tried the mod just on it's own in EE. It seems to work for the most part. Back then race descriptions were hard coded, so you could ignore the GUI section where it attempts to change your character record. To get the character record to reflect your new race... You could just manually update race.ids and racetext.2da (make sure the ID number is the same in both). For iwdee, the string ref were wrong, but that's to be expected.

    There and positives and negatives to using a spell and/or item... I use both because I like "instant permanent while equipped" - find it more reliable than just a one time spell for things like reducing xp throughout the game. There are quite a few npcs which have their own race, so really with a NI and EEKeeper, it's fairly easy to make an item, change animation and change character record... Probably why we don't have a more recent mod.

    Wise_Grimwald
  • fluke13fluke13 Member Posts: 375
    @Wise_Grimwald It'll probably be some time before I finish working on my own project. In the meantime, is there a subrace you have in mind for a particular game you're planning to try. I could share the files for a single subrace fairly easily, if you're interested.

  • Wise_GrimwaldWise_Grimwald Member Posts: 2,943
    edited November 18
    One of the races that I would like would be tiefling. One of the bugs in FinnJO's mod was that it changed your appearance so that you had a tail etc, but that your appearance reverted back later on.

    I recently tried making a goblin but was not successful. Getting the rolls right was what I was having problems with.

    I am also interested in Asimaaar.

    However I am currently about to enter the Nashkel Mines, so it could be a while before I start a new run, one never knows.

    Post edited by Wise_Grimwald on
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