Discussion of Mizhena That Damn Well Better Be Civil
dockaboomski
Member Posts: 440
So, the last thread I saw about Mizhena was closed because it was offensive.
So.
I love the idea. Having transgender characters in videogames helps move the world towards being a more accepting place, one that allows people to be who they are with no judgement. Media in general has slowly moved towards this throughout the years, especially in video games (let's call out BioWare). However (the big but) the character should matter. Mizhena, at least at the point I've gotten to, has simply remained the mobile church who just happens to be transgender. I feel that if this detail is going to be added, it either should be on a larger scale (ergo, more trans characters), or to a relevant NPC. It just (unfortunate as this sounds) seems unnecessary if the addition is rather arbitrary and the detail is still made the character's only development. It's too bad that the only thing that players remember about her is that she's 'that trans cleric', and that because of her, GOG is getting poor reviews on Siege of Dragonspear, even though it's pretty alright.
My apologies ahead of time for the mess I think I'm starting, and to anyone who thinks that I'm being too harsh. It's not my intention.
I want to state my opinion on her, and allow others to do so in a non-offensive way, or at least in such a way that will attempt to be non-offensive.
So watch yourselves, because she's obviously controversial and people will try to rant, and I expect this thread to be closed within a day or so.So.
I love the idea. Having transgender characters in videogames helps move the world towards being a more accepting place, one that allows people to be who they are with no judgement. Media in general has slowly moved towards this throughout the years, especially in video games (let's call out BioWare). However (the big but) the character should matter. Mizhena, at least at the point I've gotten to, has simply remained the mobile church who just happens to be transgender. I feel that if this detail is going to be added, it either should be on a larger scale (ergo, more trans characters), or to a relevant NPC. It just (unfortunate as this sounds) seems unnecessary if the addition is rather arbitrary and the detail is still made the character's only development. It's too bad that the only thing that players remember about her is that she's 'that trans cleric', and that because of her, GOG is getting poor reviews on Siege of Dragonspear, even though it's pretty alright.
My apologies ahead of time for the mess I think I'm starting, and to anyone who thinks that I'm being too harsh. It's not my intention.
Post edited by dockaboomski on
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Comments
You will now remind me that it is 2016.
Choices people.
Even if you want your diversity +2, add choices for all to partake in, otherwise it looks ham-fisted and reeks of agenda. Killing her outside of dialogue might be a chaotic evil choice, but that's about it.
(Needn't mention it, but I have nothing against trans, gays, or whatever. Good for them.)
I didn't care enough about this to make a thread about it, but heaven forbid someone so much as rolls their eyes at pandering.
And yes, I will remind anybody who needs it that it's 2016. It would be out of place in this decade for a game featuring hundreds of NPCs to NOT offer some content for the LGBTQI crowd.
The original Baldur's Gate was one of the greatest CRPGs ever made, but how many nonwhite characters can you remember? I can think of two, and one's a drow. Just as BGII learned to add content for a more ethnically diverse player base, so too has Beamdog expanded its characters to reflect changing mores of gender and sexuality. Just because most gamers are still white, straight, cisgender males doesn't mean that the medium should have to cater solely to them - I count myself among that majority and I find this kind of content incredibly refreshing.
I can't believe one line of inclusive dialogue has become such a contentious issue.
I can see why it seems like such characters are being designed because it's a hot button topic to discuss or maybe because it is the politically correct thing to do but honestly I think it feels that way simply because the majority of people are hetro and don't seem to think of gay characters being represented in works of art as normal. They take hetro relationships in art as an effortless inclusion of there own reality without considering the reality of others.
The original Baldur's gate had lines of dialog that makes fun of fat characters all the time. Do I care? Not really, if they were to take it out I think it would be unnecessary but if that is what the creators of the game want then that is a decision they will make regardless of how I feel. Personally, I find racist, religious and fat jokes to be among the very best jokes there are. I do think the PC nature of the Millennial generation has sucked the fun out of it a bit but that's probably because of all of the freaks that don't know the difference between a joke and out right racism or persecution. If the writers of SOD wanted to make lines of dialogue that allow me to make fun of a person because of race, religion or sexual alignment I would be fine with that as well. They have freedom of speech like everyone else.
I don't want to be forced to be a racist or gay or whatever as the game player but if that is ever an issue and I don't want to partake in it then I simply won't buy the game or will ask for a refund. The way I see it is that you are not forced to be hetro in Baldur's gate. You have a choice of avoiding all romances if you want you are free to avoid the topic altogether so it's a win for everyone.
I read the Kotaku article and it mentions that women in the original Baldur's Gate were treated as sex objects or one dimensional beings that fit stereotypes. I didn't care then and I don't care now. If they want to remove it or create more of it that is up to them. I guess I am just not easily offended. I take humor in things if I can, even if the writer is obviously pushing an agenda.
I commend them for trying at least, but the whole thing just felt forced and out of place. Perhaps a longer conversation that would lead into that would make it better to me.
Just to be clear in case anyone is oversensitive to any criticism, I LOVED the idea the character presented, I just didn't like how it was done.
Edit: Or have her stick around through various chapters, faithfully maintaining her post and as you progress new dialogue opens and you learn more about her and her struggle. Kinda like a Non-Companion Companion if that makes sense. May be too late to do such a thing but it's something to consider in the future.
Then I saw videos on youtube of people attacking and chunking her after talking to her. Wow. Such virtual hatred. Ofcourse she is just a minor convenience npc in a video game, but if people react to such a minor npc that gravely, I wonder what they would do in real life, if one of their acquantances, a friend or family member would turn out to become a transgendered individual. So sad.
If my character didn't like fat people, then by god, he or she wouldn't like fat people! It matters not what I in the real world cares about. This is "role" playing. Where you can play a role you wouldn't normally play.
If a character decides to give my fat hating character a monologue on why it's fat, then by golly god, that fat hating character should be able to deride said NPC. If my character has a fat fetish, then perhaps he should give that NPC a compliment or have a choice to flirt. If my character doesn't care at all, then it wouldn't bother replying.
"Hard limits" are usually something you use for your overall quest-line, as you don't want to break that.
I know what game I'm playing, and it's always had juvenile good or bad choices. If you lack one choice, then you're taking a step back.
If you want to get diversity +2 points for a character and that's it, then you may as well just say it.
Just my take, though, I didn't even realize she was transgendered. I thought she just had dickish parents.
Is she happy with her identity? Did she build this identity from experience, or did she discover it over time?
Is she able to picture somebody that she could love? Is it a man, a woman, another transgender?
Does she want to found a family? If so, how? And what are the consequences for the children?
Does she consider that sexual identity comes from nature for the main part or is she in fight against "stereotypes" because she's different and has suffered from intolerance?
Is there a link between her gender identity and her spirituality?
I guess all these questions are difficult for a transgender. For some these are very personal questions but, as the character seems to be willing to talk about her private life... I guess that would give more depth to the character if she could answer to all these questions, but I don't know if this would be relevant for a mere NPC. What is more you don't know if this would be representative of most transgenders. But it can be a choice of the writer to express their point of view on the question.
Do all these questions have to be in a videogame like Baldur's Gate? I'd say it's up to the developers to choose what they want to do with their game. That's the freedom of the artist, whether the artist has deeply thought about it or if they are just influenced by the modern morals.
Thats just bad writing. This character could of been made interesting but is just spouting a sob story which we are only given an option to emphasise with. The lack of role playing available in conversation options just confirms this is bad writing. Remember the suicidal noble outside Candlekeep by the cliff and the responses you could dole out from sarcastic to indifferent to sympathy? Where were these options in the mentioned conversation? Why does this conversation not feel like a conversation?
Further when asked about companions Amber is most proud of how many bi/gay companions are in the game not excited to be writing about an interesting ranger or thief character or whatever in the Forgotten Realms. Shows where her focus is really; there's not much to read between the lines as this is pretty blatant.
All Ill say is I had the exact same reaction I did when I encountered the trans character in Dragon Age: "Err, good for you, let me know when you have somthing interesting to say". I have nothing againt them but Im on neither side of this debate. I dont see this as some kind of victory for the opressed and neither do I see it as evidence that "SOWSHUL JUZTIZ" is creeping into our games.
I just look at it like I do any other of the dozens of NPCs that are given characterization. Sometimes people take a liking to them and sometimes they dont. I dont care much for NPCs private problems like the Innkeepers wife troubles or Mizhenas backstory or say if there was a homosexual NPC having relationship troubles. Nothing wrong with that I just prefer NPCs like the recruits you can help train. Different folks, different strokes and all that. Ultimately I respect the writers freedom to write whatever kind of npc they want. If that one has trans related dialogue fair enough, its just not going to interest me much. But the idea of people getting upset because of it? Jeeze what a waste of effort.
Dont like that particular NPC or their backstory? Exit the dialogue and move. Thats what I did when I didnt find Mizhenas backstory interesting, and just came back for the healing. Happens all the time with hundreds of nit part NPCs for lots of different reasons. Mizhena being trans is no reason to throw a hissy fit.
And if the NPC is not that important. Why does it have an voice actor?
Shoe horning is not cool and Amber Scott should create her own world if she want to put things like this into it. This is a established setting, do not come tell us about DnD 5.0. The game and ruleset you use is old Advanced Dungeons and Dragons, before HASBRO catered to fringe groups that is not really making up for this economically. We can push it to not containing racism or violence to, since that is bad things in reallife. Thing is, games and movies are not real life and should not be.
All this talk about "Artist freedom":
Yes, we saw how much artist freedom the people at Blizzard had with that Tracer pose or how much freedom the Japanese have in their games. Suddenly the artist "integrity" do not matter anymore when it do not fit the political correct, the social justice movement ,the feminists and so on. Suddenly it do not matter. Suddenly it offends people. Suddenly things need to change. I really hope, I really really hope Obsidian dare goes the full way and create something brutal, dark and evil with their Tyranny. Really show casing human evil and decadence. Nothing would happen. Why would they act worse in real life? You make it sound that people who kill something in a game is even worse in real life. I mean, do you try to communicate with the orcs, drows and tasloi in game? Do you put hold spells on them not to put them in place so you can avoid killing them? I hope you do since killing them without talking sound a bit racist to me. They are just missunderstood and you do not understand them since you never put your time down to learn their language. What do you do in real life when you don't understand a language and someone gesticulate around their hands and meant to warn you of something and you just killed them? You see where I am going right?
I don't think people here have problems with this NPC, they just wanted to express their point of view on it. No need to get aggressive.
As for the comparison that the wrong god or the wrong skin-color can you get killed in Faerun, that is because those things actually matter there. Unlike, the real gods some of the gods openly identify as evil. Not wanting followers of the god of plague, poison, murder or tyranny about is as rational as it gets.
One would even think that given that there is real black-white god and evil in Faerun, that this would make people actually less likely to worry to be concerned about the sexual preferences or gender identity of other people. Anyway, if you wanted you could play a transperson in BG 1 by using a certain girdle...
Much ado about nothing.
Also, If gods and evil exist. People probably worry about other things. I find it very silly that people have time to worry about their god damn gender when they live in turnips and goblins run rampant. You think the farmers of the real middle ages could do that? "Man I am a woman now":
Like or dont like I just cant see the need for much debate over something so small and innocuous. You could easily play the game and never know it was there.
Thinking confusion about your gender identity is a trivial thing that you can only worry about in modern society is revealing.