Yeah, sure. Or because, you know, she's offering you healing services. Even evil characters are capable of saying thanks when someone patches you up. Unless you're playing an utter d-bag, in which case you might as well kill every NPC in the game just for lulz, no need to single one out.
Hey if I had Irenicus' spellcasting ability, Chaotic evil would be fun! I'd love to know the mod that guy who made the video of him mowing down everyone in Waukeen's Prominade.
No really, healing services and past are two separate things, a Neutral Evil character wouldn't respond as such.
As for all the big dogs here calling out Amber Scott on her creative decisions, I've got one better for you if you've got the stones: how about you go up the ladder and make your case to WotC directly about how they shouldn't have allowed a transgender character in what is, ultimately, their game. Be sure to record them laughing their asses off at you, so you never forget where the buck stops and where you stand in relation to the people who make decisions in this industry.
Here's my problem: if you accept that logic (and, by extension, agree that Viconia's whole storyline is about proving that she shouldn't be discriminated against because she's not like "other drow"), and still argue that that's not political? It really looks like you're trolling. Maybe you're not, maybe you're not seeing the disconnect here, but Original Recipe Baldur's Gate 2 had a whole storyline about racism. "Fantastic" racism, but racism nonetheless. You can't gloss over that, you can't avoid it, you can't ameliorate it. It's there. So let go of the mantra that games can't or shouldn't be political - because they always have been.
What you say is true in my opinion. When Baldur's Gate 2 came out games were still in a major transitional period and the idea of taking them seriously or as anything but a child's pass time was not common. When games started to make political statements about society and tackle existential themes, that was the turning point and it became almost trendy to include things like that in a game similar to the way rock and roll transitioned from 80's to 90's rock with songs like GNR's Welcome To The Jungle.
This issue is a widespread one, I'm afraid, and the reason I refuse to become a writer is because people absolutely demand this sort of inclusion.
As a writer in several fields (fiction, gaming, technical), I can very much assure you that this is rarely, if ever, true.
I apologize, but you're not subjectively incorrect, you are objectively incorrect.
Whether a publisher demands it or not is not my concern, the fans of writing do quite frequently. RA Salvatore has even dealt with some of that in his work.
Fans: More of this character. Less of that character. More worldbuilding. I don't feel immersed. Less worldbuilding. Just get on with the story. The pacing's too slow. The pacing's too fast. This character wouldn't have done that. How dare you kill my favourite.
Writer: Eh, it's just part of the job. Fans will always demand changes. You can't please everybo-
What you say is true in my opinion. When Baldur's Gate 2 came out games were still in a major transitional period and the idea of taking them seriously or as anything but a child's pass time was not common. When games started to make political statements about society and tackle existential themes, that was the turning point and it became almost trendy to include things like that in a game similar to the way rock and roll transitioned from 80's to 90's rock with songs like GNR's Welcome To The Jungle.
Eh, I wouldn't draw the line there - Ultima 4 came out in 1985 and was all about morality, ethics, tolerance, how to treat different kinds of people fairly in society. Hell, even Custer's Revenge is still saying something political, even if it's horrific. You want a game that doesn't have any kind of agenda, you just might have to go to Pong.
Sure, but I mean in terms of mainstream popularity. Games were gaining acceptance at that point. I remember when it was considered a big deal because a character other than a villain died in Final Fantasy 7. Again with the rock and roll reference, many rock bands had had serious work as well but it was around the time of the early 90's that the tone started to change in the mainstream.
Today, I learned something about some people in these forums. Can't wait for this thread to be closed, which I'm sure will be the case at some point. At least the whole thing would have distracted the attention from the numerous bugs still plaguing the game and from how mods are broken on the Steam and Gog versions.
Today, I learned something about some people in these forums. Can't wait for this thread to be closed, which I'm sure will be the case at some point. At least the whole thing would have distracted the attention from the numerous bugs still plaguing the game and from how mods are broken on the Steam and Gog versions.
Well, to be fair, the people here are docile moo-moos in comparison to other more broad scope forums. There's a reason I rarely stick around long on any forums.
Today, I learned something about some people in these forums. Can't wait for this thread to be closed, which I'm sure will be the case at some point. At least the whole thing would have distracted the attention from the numerous bugs still plaguing the game and from how mods are broken on the Steam and Gog versions.
Pfft, have you seen all the angry modding threads here? Trust me, people can be pay attention to more than one thing at a time.
As for all the big dogs here calling out Amber Scott on her creative decisions, I've got one better for you if you've got the stones: how about you go up the ladder and make your case to WotC directly about how they shouldn't have allowed a transgender character in what is, ultimately, their game. Be sure to record them laughing their asses off at you, so you never forget where the buck stops and where you stand in relation to the people who make decisions in this industry.
I'm sure that is in no way a misrepresentation of anyone's arguments on this forum.
There's a transgender character in SOD... I am not terribly surprised. Disappointed but not surprised. These days, it's like every single gaming company must pander to the SJW lunatics. Why aren't there any companies that support traditional values and gender roles? If they had to include a token mentally ill person, couldn't we have gotten a character suffering from dementia or schizophrenia? And not gender dysphoria? They at least have the potential to be funny.
Come on, didnt devs expected this shitstorm? Of course they were. And if they were expecting this and still gave a middle finger to people they dont like, means they care little about profits from its existing fan base. That base is already small, and at least 1/4 of it consists of Eastern Europeans - poles and post-soviets who are known to be socially conservative. So they are not afraid of alienating them. Were they hoping to gain some casual minority player in? Certainly not, as Sunset proved its nearly impossible and Minsc proves that devs pay attention to all the recent developments. So, its clear to me that they rely on outside funding from bigger entities who promised them grants for social work, as they call it in my country. Dont forget that Trent is some big person in IGDA now, probably has a few connections here an there.
People on both sides of the table whether it be in GG or any of this progressive stuff need to understand the meaning of strawmaning and how it is a logical fallacy.
I didn't imply, nor say, the character shouldn't exist. Even out-of-context, my quote doesn't support you.
Care to explain further, then? Because it reads like you think the Forgotten Realms are "canonically" discriminatory and therefore transgendered characters shouldn't exist in that setting, since they'll inevitably be persecuted. How is that not an argument supporting exclusion?
Seeing negative Steam reviews makes me sad as well. I mean I wasn't happy how the character was presented but I don't hate it and actually wish it was explored further. My issue was with the one-off nature of it as I stated waaay early in this thread. Anyway, the best we can do about the unfairly negative Steam reviews is to downvote them and thumbs up the actual informative ones. It may not be much but it's something...
The first day of release SoD was 7th at one point in Top Sellers so I'm hoping this overblown reaction doesn't hamper it because the game is actually pretty dang good.
Edit: After browsing a bit of Steam Reviews there are a lot of negative trollish ones but there seem to be more of them complaining about bugs and the fact that SoD on Steam pretty much destroys mods presently... I haven't encountered many bugs but the second one is something I agree with. I hope it gets fixed up soon-ish.
I didn't imply, nor say, the character shouldn't exist. Even out-of-context, my quote doesn't support you.
Care to explain further, then? Because it reads like you think the Forgotten Realms are "canonically" discriminatory and therefore transgendered characters shouldn't exist in that setting, since they'll inevitably be persecuted. How is that not an argument supporting exclusion?
Because I stated that I didn't see the need for her to be transgendered. I don't know, or claim to know, if the game SHOULD or SHOULD NOT have the character. In fact, objectively speaking, the character SHOULD exist because she serves a purpose. Further, plenty of things discriminated against in the realms are still quite real, despite the fact they'll be persecuted.
Quoting people out of context without understanding if they actually support what you believe they do is poor manner, in my opinion, and since you misunderstood me, allow me to plainly speak my 'opinion' on the matter.
I don't know why there's a need for a transgendered person, but it did not detract at all from the game and I used her for lesser restoration when Glint was incapable.
Seeing negative Steam reviews makes me sad as well. I mean I wasn't happy how the character was presented but I don't hate it and actually wish it was explored further. My issue was with the one-off nature of it as I stated waaay early in this thread. Anyway, the best we can do about the unfairly negative Steam reviews is to downvote them and thumbs up the actual informative ones. It may not be much but it's something...
The first day of release SoD was 7th at one point in Top Sellers so I'm hoping this overblown reaction doesn't hamper it because the game is actually pretty dang good.
I'm just waiting for mods (Of the in-game variety) to filter out the political agenda pushing feeling options.
I just wanted to speak my mind on this, my comments may also pertain to the Minsc is a dude-bro thread as well. As long as everyone simply allows me to maintain my Fortess of Utter Apathy on the 420th layer of the Abyss, I generally allow myself to look past stereotypes and social justice movements in video games, books, movies etc. especially for the ones that I love, like Baldur's Gate. Having said that, I wanted to point out that the original developers of Baldur's Gate only comment on social justice was: "Females of the Realms can excel in any area they wish, and are easily the equals of their male counterparts in every skill or respect." People playing video games don't usually want reality to intrude upon them, hence the Fantasy setting. I get that minorities love to be represented, but I also don't see any mention of Jehovah or Allah as possible deities in the Forgotten Realms. Because in end, it doesn't matter and NO ONE REALLY CARES. We should just adopt the attitude of the original developers, or better yet Master Shifu. "I am not trying to turn you into me, I'm trying to turn you into you."
I just wanted to speak my mind on this, my comments may also pertain to the Minsc is a dude-bro thread as well. As long as everyone simply allows me to maintain my Fortess of Utter Apathy on the 420th layer of the Abyss, I generally allow myself to look past stereotypes and social justice movements in video games, books, movies etc. especially for the ones that I love, like Baldur's Gate. Having said that, I wanted to point out that the original developers of Baldur's Gate only comment on social justice was: "Females of the Realms can excel in any area they wish, and are easily the equals of their male counterparts in every skill or respect." People playing video games don't usually want reality to intrude upon them, hence the Fantasy setting. I get that minorities love to be represented, but I also don't see any mention of Jehovah or Allah as possible deities in the Forgotten Realms. Because in end, it doesn't matter and NO ONE REALLY CARES. We should just adopt the attitude of the original developers, or better yet Master Shifu. "I am not trying to turn you into me, I'm trying to turn you into you."
Let's see how long it takes for someone to strawman you into an evil muslim racist.
There's a transgender character in SOD... I am not terribly surprised. Disappointed but not surprised. These days, it's like every single gaming company must pander to the SJW lunatics. Why aren't there any companies that support traditional values and gender roles? If they had to include a token mentally ill person, couldn't we have gotten a character suffering from dementia or schizophrenia? And not gender dysphoria? They at least have the potential to be funny.
Come on, didnt devs expected this shitstorm? Of course they were. And if they were expecting this and still gave a middle finger to people they dont like, means they care little about profits from its existing fan base. That base is already small, and at least 1/4 of it consists of Eastern Europeans - poles and post-soviets who are known to be socially conservative. So they are not afraid of alienating them. Were they hoping to gain some casual minority player in? Certainly not, as Sunset proved its nearly impossible and Minsc proves that devs pay attention to all the recent developments. So, its clear to me that they rely on outside funding from bigger entities who promised them grants for social work, as they call it in my country. Dont forget that Trent is some big person in IGDA now, probably has a few connections here an there.
As for all the big dogs here calling out Amber Scott on her creative decisions, I've got one better for you if you've got the stones: how about you go up the ladder and make your case to WotC directly about how they shouldn't have allowed a transgender character in what is, ultimately, their game. Be sure to record them laughing their asses off at you, so you never forget where the buck stops and where you stand in relation to the people who make decisions in this industry.
Ubiquity is no guarantee of moral authority. If WOTC happened to be staffed by racists, would that mean it was okay to have casual racism in BG?
If Mizhena had instead been a rugged, no-nonsense type who complained that everybody was too sensitive these days and we need to stop pandering to the social justice brigade, I guarantee this situation would be reversed.
If Mizhena had instead been a rugged, no-nonsense type who complained that everybody was too sensitive these days and we need to stop pandering to the social justice brigade, I guarantee this situation would be reversed.
Why would anyone in the realm be complaining about that? I'd rather not see the words "social justice" in this context in it at all. Spare Faerun from any twitter/tumblr variants!
A person who complains that everybody is too sensitive these days and we need to stop pandering to the social justice brigade is by definition not no-nonsense.
If Mizhena had instead been a rugged, no-nonsense type who complained that everybody was too sensitive these days and we need to stop pandering to the social justice brigade, I guarantee this situation would be reversed.
No, it wouldn't. That would be just as clumsy and painful to experience.
Comments
No really, healing services and past are two separate things, a Neutral Evil character wouldn't respond as such.
Especially with the two options which keep the dialogue tree going are the same stuff.
Writer: Eh, it's just part of the job. Fans will always demand changes. You can't please everybo-
Fans: Minorities.
Writer: I DON'T GET PAID ENOUGH FOR THIS
People on both sides of the table whether it be in GG or any of this progressive stuff need to understand the meaning of strawmaning and how it is a logical fallacy.
The first day of release SoD was 7th at one point in Top Sellers so I'm hoping this overblown reaction doesn't hamper it because the game is actually pretty dang good.
Edit: After browsing a bit of Steam Reviews there are a lot of negative trollish ones but there seem to be more of them complaining about bugs and the fact that SoD on Steam pretty much destroys mods presently... I haven't encountered many bugs but the second one is something I agree with. I hope it gets fixed up soon-ish.
Quoting people out of context without understanding if they actually support what you believe they do is poor manner, in my opinion, and since you misunderstood me, allow me to plainly speak my 'opinion' on the matter.
I don't know why there's a need for a transgendered person, but it did not detract at all from the game and I used her for lesser restoration when Glint was incapable.
I also totally agree with your post, btw.
Feel free to discuss the character of Mizhena in a way that doesn't antagonize the LGBTQ community. There's a way to do it, I believe in you.