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Is it really necessary to insult your own customers, as well as the original developers?

I've been a long-time fan of the Baldur's Gate - I've played it since the early 2000s. So I was really happy to see the game be ported to Steam. I own both Baldur's Gate games, as well as Icewind Dale. I was looking forward to the new expansion.

Imagine my shock when I read that writers and developers of the Siege of Dragonspear decided to slur the game that we love as 'sexist', for not adhering to their ideological dogma.

“If there was something for the original Baldur’s Gate that just doesn’t mesh for modern day gamers like the sexism, [we tried to address that],” said writer Amber Scott. “In the original there’s a lot of jokes at women’s expense. Or if not a lot, there’s a couple, like Safana was just a sex object in BG 1, and Jaheira was the nagging wife and that was played for comedy. We were able to say like, ‘No, that’s not really the kind of story we want to make.’ In Siege of Dragonspear, Safana gets her own little storyline, she got a way better personality upgrade. If people don’t like that, then too bad.”


Source: Kotaku

So this writer accuses the original game of 'sexism', for making jokes that she doesn't like. Not to mention the insult to gamers in 'ethics in heroic adventuring', and the countless other memes reportedly inserted into the game.

Is it too much to ask to want a well-written game, and not one that is based on pop culture and tries to shoehorn an ideological and political agenda into the game? As much as I was enthusiastic about this expansion, I'm certainly not going to buy something that insults me, all gamers and the legendary writers and developers of Baldur's Gate.

Can this be addressed?

HadarNeonfiskSwashbucklerXzarGodKaiserHellWillyML4MivsanJRRNeiklotFrancoisDamianusxxxsmb1987xxx
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Comments

  • jankieljankiel Member Posts: 127
  • YosharianYosharian Member Posts: 67
    Completely agree. It's insulting to the source material and Baldur's Gate fans in general. Shame on you.

    InsultionGodKaiserHellWillyML4xxxsmb1987xxx
  • Granas3Granas3 Member Posts: 41
    To be fair, Amber Scott isn't the only writer, although she did write safana's dialogue. The word "sexism" can mean VERY different things to different people, and objectively safana was a flat character with little personality beyond being a bit flirty, which is kinda sexist. She's still basically the same character in SoD, she just has more stuff to say in that she has actual dialogue. As for the memes and such, there were all kinds of weird monty python references and in-jokes in BG1 (Anyone remember Bub-Snikt?). I do think that the ethics in heroic adventuring line is stupid and is just going to piss off GGers, but there you go. As for an ideological and political agenda, their isn't one. Writers' personal preferences MIGHT shine through, but the only "politically" motivated content I've seen is adding in more LGBT characters. If this were motivated by some sort of agenda, there'd be a TON more stuff you'd find objectionable and it'd be MUCH more shoehorned in. This was a quote about a woman's thoughts as she wrote for a couple of specific characters in an interview. If it bugs you that she said the word sexism, then apply the literary concept of death of the author and judge the game without prejudice.

    joluvtypo_tillyAyiekie
  • YosharianYosharian Member Posts: 67
    gangler said:

    Is it really?

    If Baldur's Gate was perfect there'd be no Enhanced Edition. It's kind of inherent to the endeavor that they're gonna acknowledge problems with the original.

    Baldur's Gate was a great game but it shows its age in more ways than one.

    I disagree, I think it doesn't show its age in this respect.

    See how this works? You don't change things based on one person's subjective opinion. There are clearly plenty of BG fans who like the source material the way it was, thanks very much.

    Anyway, whatever. They lost a sale from me anyway. Not much else to say, I suppose.

    SwashbucklerGodKaiserHellWillyML4Damianus
  • MonkeyLungsMonkeyLungs Member Posts: 44
    I have a feeling that even if it was ALL original developers here, that many of these kinds of changes would be made. And I'm all for it. And I'm a guy. And I bought the original games in a store with cash.

    joluvtypo_tillymf2112
  • YosharianYosharian Member Posts: 67

    I have a feeling that even if it was ALL original developers here, that many of these kinds of changes would be made. And I'm all for it. And I'm a guy. And I bought the original games in a store with cash.

    So because you (one person) think this way, it's ok to shit all over the source material.

    Gotcha.

    WillyML4Damianus
  • AmmarAmmar Member Posts: 951
    Yosharian said:

    I have a feeling that even if it was ALL original developers here, that many of these kinds of changes would be made. And I'm all for it. And I'm a guy. And I bought the original games in a store with cash.

    So because you (one person) think this way, it's ok to shit all over the source material.

    Gotcha.
    Aren't you just one person as well? I agree with @Monkeylungs. Anyway, you can never please everyone.

    Granas3
  • KorevacKorevac Member Posts: 40
    edited April 2016
    Women ruin everything there I said it.

  • Granas3Granas3 Member Posts: 41
    lunar said:

    I don't think she is accusing or blaming old bg or the developers. It was nearly two decades ago when the game was developed. Everything changed since. Gaming is now more serious a business than ever. Story telling and characterisation in video games have improved a lot. It was enough and ground breaking back when bg1 came out, that Safana was the sensual femme fetale and Jaheira was a headstrong wife. Also, there was not enough source or means/technology to flesh them out more.

    But now. People want more detailed, lively and realistic, deep characters in their video games. There are more female gamers to cater for now, as well. Video games are improved vastly, back when it started we used to jump on turtles and collect mushrooms and coins for the fun of it (mario) but now gaming is looked as serious business, a medium where people can find meaningful, lively characters they will enjoy to meet and remember. (Too many modern games that have excellent stories and characters to tell)

    Ofcourse bg1 will seem a bit basic when compared to the high standarts of todays gaming, and the current writers are doing their best to improve and modernise it. This does not belittle or bemoan bg1 of the past. If the current writers or developers did not like bg1, they wouldn't have touched it at all.

    I agree. I mean, just look at how much more developed jaheira was in BG2. It's the same with Dynaheir, Minsc and Safana from what i've seen so far in the game.

    lunarjoluvtypo_tilly
  • YosharianYosharian Member Posts: 67
    edited April 2016
    Ammar said:

    Yosharian said:

    I have a feeling that even if it was ALL original developers here, that many of these kinds of changes would be made. And I'm all for it. And I'm a guy. And I bought the original games in a store with cash.

    So because you (one person) think this way, it's ok to shit all over the source material.

    Gotcha.
    Aren't you just one person as well? I agree with @Monkeylungs. Anyway, you can never please everyone.
    Yes I am, but the difference is that one of us is arguing for (or defending) the changing of the source material, whereas the other is not.
    gangler said:

    Yosharian said:

    gangler said:

    Is it really?

    If Baldur's Gate was perfect there'd be no Enhanced Edition. It's kind of inherent to the endeavor that they're gonna acknowledge problems with the original.

    Baldur's Gate was a great game but it shows its age in more ways than one.

    I disagree, I think it doesn't show its age in this respect.

    See how this works? You don't change things based on one person's subjective opinion. There are clearly plenty of BG fans who like the source material the way it was, thanks very much.

    Anyway, whatever. They lost a sale from me anyway. Not much else to say, I suppose.
    You mean the source material that's still sold in stores? The source material that people can and will totally just buy if they want everything the way it was originally? The source material that fundamentally has to be changed if there's to be any reason for people to buy an enhanced edition? That source material?
    It's called 'Baldur's Gate: Siege of Dragonspear'. That means it's being sold on the Baldur's Gate name. It's contradictory and deceptive to do that, and then change loads of things from the source material because of political reasons.
    Granas3 said:

    Yosharian said:

    I have a feeling that even if it was ALL original developers here, that many of these kinds of changes would be made. And I'm all for it. And I'm a guy. And I bought the original games in a store with cash.

    So because you (one person) think this way, it's ok to shit all over the source material.

    Gotcha.
    So because YOU (one person) think this way, it's ok to shit all over the rest of the fans, fans who might have been playing this game just as long as you have?

    Gotcha.
    Fans that think BG is sexist and needs to be 'fixed' to fit the 21st century? Some fans...

    Damianus
  • AmmarAmmar Member Posts: 951
    Yosharian said:

    Ammar said:

    Yosharian said:

    I have a feeling that even if it was ALL original developers here, that many of these kinds of changes would be made. And I'm all for it. And I'm a guy. And I bought the original games in a store with cash.

    So because you (one person) think this way, it's ok to shit all over the source material.

    Gotcha.
    Aren't you just one person as well? I agree with @Monkeylungs. Anyway, you can never please everyone.
    Yes I am, but the difference is that one of us is arguing for (or defending) the changing of the source material, whereas the other is not.
    SoD is not source material. You are still free to play the original BGs without any changes.

    illathidjoluvmf2112
  • YosharianYosharian Member Posts: 67
    edited April 2016
    Ammar said:

    Yosharian said:

    Ammar said:

    Yosharian said:

    I have a feeling that even if it was ALL original developers here, that many of these kinds of changes would be made. And I'm all for it. And I'm a guy. And I bought the original games in a store with cash.

    So because you (one person) think this way, it's ok to shit all over the source material.

    Gotcha.
    Aren't you just one person as well? I agree with @Monkeylungs. Anyway, you can never please everyone.
    Yes I am, but the difference is that one of us is arguing for (or defending) the changing of the source material, whereas the other is not.
    SoD is not source material. You are still free to play the original BGs without any changes.
    It's an expansion pack using the BG name. That means it should be faithful to the source material. Part of that is not changing existing characters for political reasons.

    QUOTE: "In Siege of Dragonspear, Safana gets her own little storyline, she got a way better personality upgrade."

    That's literally changing source material.

    Damianus
  • GiantMiniatureImpGiantMiniatureImp Member Posts: 8
    lunar said:

    Ofcourse bg1 will seem a bit basic when compared to the high standarts of todays gaming, and the current writers are doing their best to improve and modernise it. This does not belittle or bemoan bg1 of the past. If the current writers or developers did not like bg1, they wouldn't have touched it at all.

    There is a huge difference between saying that BG1 was 'basic' and that it was 'sexist', which is beyond absurd and ridiculous. Basic is about quality, 'sexist' is about politics (literally everything is called sexist by radical feminists).

    So you're not addressing the complaint at all, but merely rephrasing it as something the writer did not say. Frankly, I don't care for people's ideological and political agenda.

    Mivsan
  • KorevacKorevac Member Posts: 40
    Korevac said:

    Women ruin everything there I said it.

    That's harsh on decent women actually, feminists ruin everything.

  • AmmarAmmar Member Posts: 951
    Yosharian said:


    QUOTE: "In Siege of Dragonspear, Safana gets her own little storyline, she got a way better personality upgrade."

    That's literally changing source material.

    Safana did not really have a personality before. And I don't feel anything she says in SoD is out of character, given the mere sketch we had of her in BG 1.

    illathidjoluvMonkeyLungs
  • YosharianYosharian Member Posts: 67
    edited April 2016
    Ammar said:

    Yosharian said:


    QUOTE: "In Siege of Dragonspear, Safana gets her own little storyline, she got a way better personality upgrade."

    That's literally changing source material.

    Safana did not really have a personality before. And I don't feel anything she says in SoD is out of character, given the mere sketch we had of her in BG 1.
    Thanks, that really puts my mind at rest.

    Sarcasm aside, it's the principle of the thing more than anything. (at least, with respect to Safana)

    WillyML4
  • YosharianYosharian Member Posts: 67
    edited April 2016
    gangler said:

    Yosharian said:

    Ammar said:

    Yosharian said:

    Ammar said:

    Yosharian said:

    I have a feeling that even if it was ALL original developers here, that many of these kinds of changes would be made. And I'm all for it. And I'm a guy. And I bought the original games in a store with cash.

    So because you (one person) think this way, it's ok to shit all over the source material.

    Gotcha.
    Aren't you just one person as well? I agree with @Monkeylungs. Anyway, you can never please everyone.
    Yes I am, but the difference is that one of us is arguing for (or defending) the changing of the source material, whereas the other is not.
    SoD is not source material. You are still free to play the original BGs without any changes.
    It's an expansion pack using the BG name. That means it should be faithful to the source material. Part of that is not changing existing characters for political reasons.

    QUOTE: "In Siege of Dragonspear, Safana gets her own little storyline, she got a way better personality upgrade."

    That's literally changing source material.
    So was the UI update. So was pretty much everything they've done. It's an enhanced edition. As in, they took the source material, changed it in various ways meant to improve it, and then tried to sell it to consumers interested in a better version of the source material.
    There is a massive difference between changing source material in terms of writing and changing source material in terms of things like UI, which can be improved in simple ways by up-rezzing, etc.

    And you know it, you're just being disingenuous.

    NeonfiskWillyML4Damianus
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 15,944
    I initially closed this thread. I've reopened it. This is a moderated forum however so everyone please remember to follow the rules.

    https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/10852/site-rules-mind-the-gap#latest

  • KorevacKorevac Member Posts: 40
    Wesley said:

    "I missed the part where anything was changed about BG1?

    Anyway, the original game was sexist. Great, but flawed. Star-Teel and Jaheira were the only woman NPC trained as a fighter, paladin, or ranger, but somehow all four pure thieves and all three pure cleric or druid NPCs were women. Khalid refers to Jaheira as "the wife". Gorion, Elminster, Sarevok, Scar, and three of four dukes of Baldur's Gate are men, with no woman characters of similar prominence. Nearly every shop and tavern is run by a man, and one of the banters you'll hear dozen's of times in any city is "wife's been getting prickly on my arse". There is no similar banter disparaging men generally or any man in particular. Star-Teel, who may have been intended to provide some balance, is a female supremacist rather than a feminist.

    Anyway, that's all still there in BG and BG:EE, so a hearty eyeroll to the idea that anybody has "changed" the source material, let alone for the worse. As for Siege of Dragonspear, nobody will ever force you to play the game, nor to go to the Internet to post petulant little tirades. And Amber Scott's opinion counts for a lot more than yours or mine when it comes to what goes in the game or to what is ok to put in a game that she is in charge of.

    So don't get angry, have fun. Play the game - it's awesome!"

    pass me the fricking puke bucket quic-!!!

    blaaaaragghhhhhaaagag!!!!!!!


    wouldn't you be happier playing my little pony or something less triggering than sexist white supremacist BG??

    GodKaiserHellWillyML4PhilhelmDamianus
  • WesleyWesley Member Posts: 55
    Korevac said:

    Wesley said:

    "I missed the part where anything was changed about BG1?

    Anyway, the original game was sexist. Great, but flawed. Star-Teel and Jaheira were the only woman NPC trained as a fighter, paladin, or ranger, but somehow all four pure thieves and all three pure cleric or druid NPCs were women. Khalid refers to Jaheira as "the wife". Gorion, Elminster, Sarevok, Scar, and three of four dukes of Baldur's Gate are men, with no woman characters of similar prominence. Nearly every shop and tavern is run by a man, and one of the banters you'll hear dozen's of times in any city is "wife's been getting prickly on my arse". There is no similar banter disparaging men generally or any man in particular. Star-Teel, who may have been intended to provide some balance, is a female supremacist rather than a feminist.

    Anyway, that's all still there in BG and BG:EE, so a hearty eyeroll to the idea that anybody has "changed" the source material, let alone for the worse. As for Siege of Dragonspear, nobody will ever force you to play the game, nor to go to the Internet to post petulant little tirades. And Amber Scott's opinion counts for a lot more than yours or mine when it comes to what goes in the game or to what is ok to put in a game that she is in charge of.

    So don't get angry, have fun. Play the game - it's awesome!"

    pass me the fricking puke bucket quic-!!!

    blaaaaragghhhhhaaagag!!!!!!!


    wouldn't you be happier playing my little pony or something less triggering than sexist white supremacist BG??
    Haha, why so angry? Just enjoy the game, bro, it's a fun one.

This discussion has been closed.