... I think he needs to explain why the EE changes are less "in the spirit" of the game. Having said that I havent played a huge amount of the mods for BG
"BG1 and BG2 on GOG is a much better bet than the Enhanced Edition as things stand. They are perfectly playable and enjoyable 'vanilla', and mods can really enhance the game. In contrast, the Enhanced Edition's changes are less in the spirit of the game than the best mods, and really don't do a whole lot. It's only worthwhile if you want to play on tablets."
That comment really surprises me.
It's a blunt quote with poor expression, but in technical terms it really doesn't seem that fallacious to me. If you compare modded BG/BG2 as they exist today with BG/BG2:EE at launch, the former will be far more extensive and customizable, as well as contain most of the EE features - there are exceptions of course, such as the new NPC:s and the zoom function, but almost all of the other implementations are based off what has already been done with mods.
This will likely change in the weeks/months after the EE release, as more and more mods are adapted to it and it becomes the new standard for future modding. Even so, there is a distinction between what something represents in terms of potential, and what it actually is at a specified time.
And then of course, it also doesn't take into account that you need a fairly extensive amount of insight into and experience with the game to mod it to such a degree, and then the patience/desire to see it through.
So basically this entire thread comes down to "I love DRM and screw GoG for actually treating their customers like human beings instead of walking wallets!" Pathetic. I was actually looking forward to buying BG:EE (I have disc copies of all the games in the series and have them all purchased from GoG as well), but right before I hit the pre-order button I thought to check for DRM....sadly, Overhaul wants to screw me over for buying from them, so I won't be buying the game anymore unless they eventually release it via GoG. It's sad that the good old days when companies actually valued their customers are long gone.
@Totenglocke I agree to 99% with you but the DRM from Beamdog isnt that bad realy. so if your not totally anti DRM (which i am to some extent too) try to think about it again. And nothing else can give me what GOG has to offer!
And it´s in the human nature that peoples have different oppinions... there are human beings that dont like chocolate;)
@Totenglocke Have you actually read what type of DRM will be on BGEE? A one time activation when you start up the game. It will be no more intrusive than entering a CD-key on installation. In fact probably less so. Overhaul actually seem anti-DRM but they have to put something in as per their contract.
If youve read the "entire thread" like you say you have, youd find alot of the people here are pro-GoG and if anything are slightly concerned about the post. Others see it as tongue in cheek humour. Regardless, if you were looking forward to playing BGEE, and decided not to buy due to a (very) minimal amount of DRM, then... Well, its your loss.
It doesn't matter if it's "not that bad", it still puts control of MY property in the hands of Beamdog and they can revoke my right to use my property at any time they choose. Sorry, but I don't get the people who say "It's OK to rape me as long as you use a little lube!".
Have you actually read what type of DRM will be on BGEE? A one time activation when you start up the game. It will be no more intrusive than entering a CD-key on installation. In fact probably less so. Overhaul actually seem anti-DRM but they have to put something in as per their contract
Sorry, but it's completely different from a CD key. Why? Because a CD key is permanent, an activation server only lasts as long as they choose to allow it. Obviously you've been extremely lucky and haven't lost money due to DRM - I have and when the day comes that you can no longer use something you've purchased, you'll change your mind about your love of DRM. I'm not "losing" anything by not playing this game....that's the flaw in the logic of pro-DRM people like you. You think you HAVE to play a certain game or your life will end, thus you're willing to be punished for buying that game. Sorry, but people like you have been destroying the gaming hobby since DRM started, and eventually you'll lead to its total destruction.
Im sorry, but every one of your posts so far has been about DRM, and how everyone who is okay with BGEEs DRM is "Pro-DRM". This isnt true at all, and merely your assumption. I dont play anything origin (pretty much anything EA now either), I dislike steam though have used it in the past. I wont buy diablo 3 either because I didnt like battle.net 2 in SC2 even though I loved D1+2.
I dont like DRM, would prefer BGEE without it, but Im actaully using my brain to weigh up the good with the bad and Im basing my decision on that, rather than DRM=SATANS SPAWN.
"You think you HAVE to play a certain game or your life will end"
Again, dont assume you know ANYTHING about me, or anyone else on these forums for that matter. Youve read a few lines ive posted on the internet not my life story. Nothing annoys me more than this on the net (there, you know a little more about me now). As ive explained previously, I dont HAVE to play anything thanks, and my gaming time is much much more limited than it used to be so Im quite selective in what I play.
Bottom line, maybe when Beamdog shut down their servers (without patching a DRM free version like theyve promised) and I cant reinstall BGEE, perhaps I will be mad. And you would have been right. Im just willing to take the risk, you're not.
No, it's not - it's a 100% factual statement. DRM causes nothing but harm to consumers and provides no benefit to the companies that use it (since the used PC game market was always minuscule, killing it off didn't help them because it caused them to lose far more sales than they "gained" by killing off used sales). We see companies getting worse and worse with DRM (remember the launch of Diablo III?) and there's no end in sight as long as apologists like you make excuses for the companies that go out of their way to screw over their paying customers and eventually it WILL kill the gaming industry. Once they make it so that used console games are worthless, the majority of people won't be able to afford to buy new games all the time and the inflated prices companies will charge will cause most parents to refuse to buy them for their kids. The video game industry already nearly died once in my lifetime, it'll be a shame to see it happen a second time.
Now youre calling elminster an apologist because he said your statement was a bit OTT? Look, I actually agree with you to a certain extent, but stop with the insults, lol... Not to mention this topic has nothing to do With DRM really.
Totenglocke has been posting this same stuff in other threads as well. I encourage anyone who has questions about the game's DRM to read the DRM thread in the Windows PC subforum.
Make your own decisions about whether or not to buy the game, and that's fine; but let's avoid calling people names just because they accept or understand a developer's desire to protect its product.
Please, point out where I called anyone a name. Pointing out that Elminster is making excuses for a bad business practice isn't insulting anyone - it's a simple factual statement. But seeing as how none of you have been able to come up with an actual reason why customers should be punished for buying a product, you result to making crap up.
And Aosaw, we all know that DRM has nothing to do with sales - CEO's / Presidents of companies have openly admitted this. Instead of regurgitating PR propaganda, how about you actually discuss some facts? You seem to stop talking as soon as someone asks you to have a factual discussion.
Tone down the vitriol, you've joined the board less than 2 hours ago and several of your posts have been aimed at insulting other users.
Its fine if you have a problem with the minimalistic DRM being included with BGEE and don't want to buy it, but that doesn't give you the right to insult other users that choose to cope with the DRM.
I stop talking because I've said it all before. If you refuse to go and read the thread I mentioned, I can't be expected to rehash twenty pages of debate for your benefit.
If you want to have an intelligent discussion, stop calling anyone who disagrees with you a "pro-DRM zealot" or calling my rather practical statements "propaganda". I don't have an agenda, which you'd know if you read any of my posts in the actual DRM thread that you seem to be avoiding.
You're the one making assumptions that DRM is only there to make you miserable. And if you're not willing to even consider the possibility that you might be wrong, then there's nothing to discuss.
@Totenglocke Ohh so now I'm an apologist for DRM. I'm not, its the reason I have not bought Diablo 3, Starcraft 2, and a whole host of other games. But hey, don't let that stop you from making assumptions about me based on me being critical of what I think is you being overly dramatic.
Will excessive DRM kill some of the larger video game companies? perhaps. But I would argue that there are other reasons why console games (and by extension those larger companies) would not be making good sales, not the least of which is the re-emergence of portable gaming and the ability of programmers today to make and sell games through various devices. That still does not mean that DRM will lead to the entire destruction of the gaming hobby (or video game industry whichever you want to go with). This is not the 1980's. Video games exist in free flash games online, tablets, phones, consoles, and pc's/macs. There will also always be people who oppose DRM, so companies like gog.com will live on provided they keep themselves competitive in what they offer. Though not on Gog.com, consider for a moment the success of Minecraft. You could argue that having to login online whenever you want to play online is a form of DRM or not (I don't think it is), but either way it was a very successful business venture despite it not being part of a larger video company.
I'd also point out that there is an entire 28 or so page thread in the windows section @Totenglocke where if you want to complain about that kind of thing.
Edit: aosaw beat me to it and I never even noticed...
Again, you've yet to provide any evidence of me insulting anyone. Is disagreeing with pro-DRM views really a bannable offense in your eyes?
The evidence are your previous posts.
People that choose to buy BGEE aren't being pro-DRM, they have just decided that the level of DRM present in BGEE is acceptable for them. Like I've said before, if you don't want to buy the game because of the DRM, that's perfectly fine, but antagonizing people for choosing to buy the game is simply unacceptable.
And like @Aosaw has already mentioned there is a thread already with a long discussion concerning DRM in the PC subforum.
@Shin I agree that -assuming feature externalization is successful- time will likely prove BG:EE to be the smarter purchase for anyone that enjoys mods. While I certainly don't begrudge them the effort, GOG's announcement and related sale do seem to be a bit of a last minute cash grab. Still, if it were easy to sell long term potential to the masses, politics wouldn't be such a revolving door of short term promises.
Comments
That comment really surprises me.
It's a blunt quote with poor expression, but in technical terms it really doesn't seem that fallacious to me. If you compare modded BG/BG2 as they exist today with BG/BG2:EE at launch, the former will be far more extensive and customizable, as well as contain most of the EE features - there are exceptions of course, such as the new NPC:s and the zoom function, but almost all of the other implementations are based off what has already been done with mods.
This will likely change in the weeks/months after the EE release, as more and more mods are adapted to it and it becomes the new standard for future modding. Even so, there is a distinction between what something represents in terms of potential, and what it actually is at a specified time.
And then of course, it also doesn't take into account that you need a fairly extensive amount of insight into and experience with the game to mod it to such a degree, and then the patience/desire to see it through.
I shall not be purchasing another game from them!
And it´s in the human nature that peoples have different oppinions... there are human beings that dont like chocolate;)
If youve read the "entire thread" like you say you have, youd find alot of the people here are pro-GoG and if anything are slightly concerned about the post. Others see it as tongue in cheek humour. Regardless, if you were looking forward to playing BGEE, and decided not to buy due to a (very) minimal amount of DRM, then... Well, its your loss.
It doesn't matter if it's "not that bad", it still puts control of MY property in the hands of Beamdog and they can revoke my right to use my property at any time they choose. Sorry, but I don't get the people who say "It's OK to rape me as long as you use a little lube!".
@Excalibur_2012 Sorry, but it's completely different from a CD key. Why? Because a CD key is permanent, an activation server only lasts as long as they choose to allow it. Obviously you've been extremely lucky and haven't lost money due to DRM - I have and when the day comes that you can no longer use something you've purchased, you'll change your mind about your love of DRM. I'm not "losing" anything by not playing this game....that's the flaw in the logic of pro-DRM people like you. You think you HAVE to play a certain game or your life will end, thus you're willing to be punished for buying that game. Sorry, but people like you have been destroying the gaming hobby since DRM started, and eventually you'll lead to its total destruction.
That is an absurdly overly dramatic statement...
Im sorry, but every one of your posts so far has been about DRM, and how everyone who is okay with BGEEs DRM is "Pro-DRM". This isnt true at all, and merely your assumption. I dont play anything origin (pretty much anything EA now either), I dislike steam though have used it in the past. I wont buy diablo 3 either because I didnt like battle.net 2 in SC2 even though I loved D1+2.
I dont like DRM, would prefer BGEE without it, but Im actaully using my brain to weigh up the good with the bad and Im basing my decision on that, rather than DRM=SATANS SPAWN.
"You think you HAVE to play a certain game or your life will end"
Again, dont assume you know ANYTHING about me, or anyone else on these forums for that matter. Youve read a few lines ive posted on the internet not my life story. Nothing annoys me more than this on the net (there, you know a little more about me now). As ive explained previously, I dont HAVE to play anything thanks, and my gaming time is much much more limited than it used to be so Im quite selective in what I play.
Bottom line, maybe when Beamdog shut down their servers (without patching a DRM free version like theyve promised) and I cant reinstall BGEE, perhaps I will be mad. And you would have been right. Im just willing to take the risk, you're not.
No, it's not - it's a 100% factual statement. DRM causes nothing but harm to consumers and provides no benefit to the companies that use it (since the used PC game market was always minuscule, killing it off didn't help them because it caused them to lose far more sales than they "gained" by killing off used sales). We see companies getting worse and worse with DRM (remember the launch of Diablo III?) and there's no end in sight as long as apologists like you make excuses for the companies that go out of their way to screw over their paying customers and eventually it WILL kill the gaming industry. Once they make it so that used console games are worthless, the majority of people won't be able to afford to buy new games all the time and the inflated prices companies will charge will cause most parents to refuse to buy them for their kids. The video game industry already nearly died once in my lifetime, it'll be a shame to see it happen a second time.
Make your own decisions about whether or not to buy the game, and that's fine; but let's avoid calling people names just because they accept or understand a developer's desire to protect its product.
And Aosaw, we all know that DRM has nothing to do with sales - CEO's / Presidents of companies have openly admitted this. Instead of regurgitating PR propaganda, how about you actually discuss some facts? You seem to stop talking as soon as someone asks you to have a factual discussion.
Tone down the vitriol, you've joined the board less than 2 hours ago and several of your posts have been aimed at insulting other users.
Its fine if you have a problem with the minimalistic DRM being included with BGEE and don't want to buy it, but that doesn't give you the right to insult other users that choose to cope with the DRM.
If you want to have an intelligent discussion, stop calling anyone who disagrees with you a "pro-DRM zealot" or calling my rather practical statements "propaganda". I don't have an agenda, which you'd know if you read any of my posts in the actual DRM thread that you seem to be avoiding.
You're the one making assumptions that DRM is only there to make you miserable. And if you're not willing to even consider the possibility that you might be wrong, then there's nothing to discuss.
Will excessive DRM kill some of the larger video game companies? perhaps. But I would argue that there are other reasons why console games (and by extension those larger companies) would not be making good sales, not the least of which is the re-emergence of portable gaming and the ability of programmers today to make and sell games through various devices. That still does not mean that DRM will lead to the entire destruction of the gaming hobby (or video game industry whichever you want to go with). This is not the 1980's. Video games exist in free flash games online, tablets, phones, consoles, and pc's/macs. There will also always be people who oppose DRM, so companies like gog.com will live on provided they keep themselves competitive in what they offer. Though not on Gog.com, consider for a moment the success of Minecraft. You could argue that having to login online whenever you want to play online is a form of DRM or not (I don't think it is), but either way it was a very successful business venture despite it not being part of a larger video company.
Edit: aosaw beat me to it and I never even noticed...
That's your only warning.
Again, you've yet to provide any evidence of me insulting anyone. Is disagreeing with pro-DRM views really a bannable offense in your eyes?
Here's an interesting site for purchasing games. http://isthereanydeal.com/
And my guess is that they're just trying to get those last few sales before the EE comes out.
People that choose to buy BGEE aren't being pro-DRM, they have just decided that the level of DRM present in BGEE is acceptable for them. Like I've said before, if you don't want to buy the game because of the DRM, that's perfectly fine, but antagonizing people for choosing to buy the game is simply unacceptable.
And like @Aosaw has already mentioned there is a thread already with a long discussion concerning DRM in the PC subforum.
Irritating me won't help.
@Shin I agree that -assuming feature externalization is successful- time will likely prove BG:EE to be the smarter purchase for anyone that enjoys mods. While I certainly don't begrudge them the effort, GOG's announcement and related sale do seem to be a bit of a last minute cash grab. Still, if it were easy to sell long term potential to the masses, politics wouldn't be such a revolving door of short term promises.