Do you think they should rebalance the kits for level 1 use?
Dawglicious
Member Posts: 224
A lot of the kits were designed with BG2 in mind, so much so that in many cases they will only be of small benefit towards the end of BG1, or in some cases (Shapeshifter for example), they will be extremely OP for much of the game. Do you think they should/will do a rebalance of the kits?
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The abilities need to be scaled better.
Assassins don't offer anything all that good at low levels, and aren't worth rolling over a regular thief. The Scald's song doesn't start scaling until level 15, iirc, and at level 1 is probably far too powerful. There's a druid summons that is immune to damage from regular weapons, making it unkillable by mobs in 2/3 of the original game.
I don't know what to do about Barbarians. That movement speed, damage, thac0, and health bonuses are a huge advantage early on. It makes the opening part of the game a complete faceroll.
While 2nd Edition AD&D (or any edition of D&D for that matter) is not very well balanced, there are some egregiously over and underpowered kits which need to be fixed.
I agree that some balancing changes should applied to several of the kits, namely the druid kits which have extremely powerful options at their disposal at low level, even if their power levels off later on. The biggest issues are the immunity to non-magical weapons (Shapeshifter, Totemic Druid) and the extra attacks granted in the Sword Spider form (Avenger).
I do not know if their contract allows for class re-balancing, but I sincerely hope so.
For instance I have been told no kits will be applied to original NPCs (whether through player choice or just forced) because they are not allowed the creative license to do so. I am just unsure where the line is drawn.
Idk about anything else though, unfortunately.
I'm playing Tutu with an avenger and tbh even with sword spider form I've got a worse AC and damage done than an equivalent level/geared fighter class.
It's already been confirmed somewhere that shapeshifters have been nerfed, as well. Also for normal werewolf form, I don't think immunity to normal weapons was actually implemented.
Long answer: it would be wonderful to see kits balanced early, mid as well as late game, but there are 2 issues - the extensive testing required and the contract - which make me think that not all classes or kits will get the same privilege the monk might have gotten.
I'd argue regular assassin over a default thief for any single-class thief any day of the week, even in BG1.
The only things that I feel need tweaking are Monks (need some sort of buff to not be useless til xp cap), Totemic Druid's spirit animals (immunity to normal weapons shouldn't kick in til like level 10 (so the xp cap for BG1), and... Well that's about it actually. Barbarians can't use plate armors which hinders their tankiness quite a bit opposed to a regular fighter, plus they can't do grand mastery. Shapeshifters still can't shift til level 7 and immunity to normal weapons was never implemented in BG2 to begin with, so you'll be super gimp til then what with the no armor and all. Nothing strikes me as being too powerful or too weak besides what I mentioned.
Druids with Insect Plague and Iron Skins are *also* super overpowered.
And don't underestimate monks and kensai. The amulet of shielding is available relatively early on for a cheap price at the carnival. That can make their game easy, truth be told. But on the other hand, monks just *need* to get to level 9 in the Enhanced Edition. Otherwise, it won't be too fun fighting several monsters immune to normal weapon.
Other than that, paladin kits immunities could break the game easily. WITCH HUNT ON LEVEL 1! Huzzah! It's seriously possible to kill the sirines with a Cavalier on level 1 without getting harmed. But then again, it's possible killing basilisks on level 1, so no biggie.
The assassin is not weak, just very specialized. I don't enjoy playing them at low levels because I'm a thief that pretty much sucks at being a thief until level 8 or so. The poison is nice, but I prefer trap-setting.
The Berserker, Inquisitor and Cavalier kits are heavily powered for BG1. The immunities granted by each are particularly useful, and all have great attack skills. In general a paladin kinda breaks the game because it's biggest disadvantage (strictly role-playing lawful good) is not in the game. Still, it doesn't break the game, just bend it.
So outside of a limited use poison ability, there isn't much an assassin can do that a regular thief can't do. Again, why would anyone bother? Barbs quickly closing range and 1 shotting low level mobs is more than enough to make up for their armor class issues. Especially since you can get good AC bracers relatively early on.
Try it out with Tutu. It's funny and a bit ridiculous.
Other than armor of faith and bark skin it is their only protection spell against physical attacks if I'm not mistaken, so they are not even overpowered (much less super overpowered) with those spells. They are no more overpowered than a mage with stone skin.
And yeah, early on you will lose out on a lot of thieving skills. You will not be as well rounded as a default thief. But those poison uses are still pretty awesome even if you only have 2 at level 8.
Are the benefits minimal? Yes. I can see someone arguing regular thief, for sure. I've played Assassin through Tutu before though and he was awesome. There are so many other characters who thief well, I just focused on stealth skills and had both the shadow armor and boots of stealth.
I used to refer to him as The Danger. If the show had been around back then, I would have made him look like Walter White. Barbarian rage is no more OP than the Berzerker kit rage. Moving faster is nice, but I just don't see it being something that needs to be nerfed.
You can one-shot most low level mobs with a two-handed sword and 18/01 strength anyway. I guess that's why it doesn't strike me as too egregious. Didn't know that. I tend to stay away from Shapeshifter because it's terrible.
I guess I don't mind it making early game BG1 a "huge joke" because it already is. Couple potions of clarity and you can hunt Sirenes. Couple potions of mirrored eyes and you can hunt Basilisks. Once you hit level 3 and find a weapon that won't break on you, pretty much everything up until Cloakwood is a breeze. It's more how easy it would make the LATTER parts of the game that concern me, and that's only the immunity from weapons which was never implemented to begin with.
If they fixed all the parts of werewolf form except immunity to weapons, and then made it so you couldn't shapeshift more than once a day til level 7, then I have no problem with Shapeshifters. It'd be kind of nice for them to not suck considering it's easily the worst kit in the game in BG2 and beyond.
Honestly, 2nd ed D&D was never meant to be "Balanced" in the way you'd expect the word to mean nowadays.
I dont think it matters that some classes are more powerful at certain levels than others in the game that introduced the 3hp wizard.
Having said that, anything *glaringly* overpowered like druids spirit summons which wound be immune to basicaly every single monster in the game, or sorcerors selecting call familiar on startup ought to be looked at.
I agree about 2nd ed being somewhat imbalance, but keep in mind that this is 2.5, which basically was Black Isle taking 2nd edition as a base and then tweaking it as they saw fit to make it a good computer game for all to enjoy. So if Beamdog can, further balancing would likely be a good thing.
Thief damage is pretty dismal outside backstabs. In your party, they're really only there for their skills. If the Assassin can't manage the skills, they aren't pulling their weight. You're better off bringing a pure damage dealer and letter one of the 10,000 thief NPCs handle traps and lockpicking. Now who's over looking +hit and +damage bonuses? ;-)
The barb's 19 STR is noticeable at early levels of play. Dual wielding, he's going to hit faster and more often than an 18/00 fighter with a 2h sword. Which means more Xvart chunks flying around the screen.
The movement bonus is significant because the AI is dumb. Some mobs, like bandits and kobolds, will continually try to maintain range if you get in their face. Others, like the Black Talons, will draw melee weapons instead and attack. Either way, the faster movment is a great boon. In the former case, those mobs aren't attacking while they're running. CHUNK! In the latter case, you've shut down 95% of the mob's damage potential (they're no longer firing ice arrows at your mages). CHUNK CHUNK!
Walking out of Candlekeep with 17-18 HP seems grossly out of balance at level 1.
Personal opinion when it comes to that.
I think I'm in the minority there, but the way I see it anything where that much extra damage is even going to be noticeable is going to come down to my casters more than it is my fighters. Fighters chew through wimpy enemies, casters handle the difficult situations. Not much difference between +6 and +10 damage when either way you kill the Kobold in a hit, right?
It's worth noting Barbarians don't inherently have 19 strength. That'd be half-orcs. That's a racial thing, not a class thing. Also, 19 strength is literally only +1 damage better than 18/00. Both do +3 Thac0. A dual-wielding barbarian madman with 19 strength isn't going to be that much better than the same dude with only 18/00. It's just a lot easier to get 19 on a half orc than it is to ever roll 18/00 on anybody.
I realize utilizing Barbarian rage will up his strength but at most it'll grant +2 thac0/+4 damage while active. Not that much more "broken" than a berzerker gaining +2hit/damage. Plus, barbarian rage hurts your AC, making you easier to hit. Considering you can't wear heavier than splint mail already, it means it's somewhat dangerous to rely on it early.
I admit the melee walking speed boost is helpful because the AI is dumb, but I just don't buy that as the CLASS being overpowered. Even without speed boosts, I find it pretty easy to abuse the AI pathing in BG1 just fine. In fact, I'd go as far as to say the extra speed boost can be a little bit of a detriment because if you don't pay attention and move really far away, your lone barbarian might get in a fight while the rest of your party is really far away. I don't feel it needs to be fixed. Again, just personal opinion.
I agree that +1 is more significant on that thief than it is the fighter. Also, good catch on the Barb's STR. (I guess my bias is showing. I automatically roll half orcs when I want a Barb.)
I've been playing TuTu with SCS ratcheted up to insane levels, and found the Barb significantly easier than any other race/class combo, outside of maybe dwarven Fighter/Cleric. It's not just about chunking kobolds (although that's a large part of it).
Several early Mage fights are made faaaaaar easier when a Barb can just zip over and start pounding on prebuffed Mirror Images. My last guy killed Tarnesh so quickly, the avatar barely broke stride on his way to the entrance of the bar. (Granted, an assassin could just stealth over and one-shot him before any dialogue, but they won't be able pull that trick against Silke, Nalia, or Nimbul.)
PS: Also wanted to take this opportunity to offer a huge THANK YOU for the work you guys put into Play It Hardcore. I haven't played BG in ages, and find myself continually referring back to your pages. It's been a fantastic help.
Now that I'm playing BG1 again, I want to get back to making maps for each area but I can't get the Widescreen Mod to work for just BG1 proper. Don't feel like installing Tutu again either though I might just for assemblage purposes. I could just use BG1 normally, but the maps are displayed so flippin' small. I dislike blowing up images because it makes them super pixelated. Would rather work with a larger source, you know?
ANYWAY YEAH! Barbs are neat. Although I never roll Half-Orc, especially in BG1. Dwarves are just too good. Dwarven saving throws + barbarian rage insta-death immunities make for one superb anti-mage. I don't want them changed! You're making me want to try one out. I pretty much never do because I never roll single-class fighter-types other than Paladins and Stalker or Archer.