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Trying to be objective

TalysTalys Member Posts: 15
I just read about people being banned for being angry at the whole controversial stuff. A developer even said "Don't think we don't see what's going on". What's going on ? While I agree there is no reason for hate speech and certainly not towards LGBT people (who did nothing wrong at all...), I wonder, did the devs really thought they could put political
stuff in the new game - nowadays- and get away with no reactions ? Even I still angry at the writer who said old BG games were sexist, while I don't mind the new content. (I'm much more concerned about multiplayer in BG:EE being so broken, it was so much fun with friends !) I don't support boycotting the new game or whatever, but when you chose to take side, necessarily the other side will be angry - and I think it's a bit sad that BG became that, a battlefield for culture war.
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  • IllustairIllustair Member Posts: 878
    I'll comment on this one - "people being banned for being angry at the whole controversial stuff." No, not true. Just those that crossed the line e.g. continuously throwing insults and/or curses. Many of those "angry at the whole controversial stuff" are still around doing the same things
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,754
    The devs haven't banned anyone.

    The users that were banned completely violated the site rules written here - http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/10852/site-rules-mind-the-gap

    Even with the freedom of speech, one still has to respect and follow the site rules.
  • cmk24cmk24 Member Posts: 605
    The only bans I have seen on this forum are people who explicitly broke one of the forum rules (found here for reference https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/10852/site-rules-mind-the-gap).
  • TalysTalys Member Posts: 15
    If it's true, then it's true, I just hope the devs don't start to hide behing "all the unsatisfied commenters are hateful gamergate/LGBT haters" to make it look like they have no responsability in what's happening. When you touch politics, you take responsability. And the time they spend answering to this ****storm, they don't work on their games anymore...
  • AvariAvari Member Posts: 38

    It's amazing how there is a post like this being put up about once per hour. So coincidental!

    "I want to sound reasonable so I'm going to lead off with some reasonable-sounding sentences, I'm a fan of the series, I totes love gay people and stuff. Yadda yadda, eventually I'll get to my point where in a very reasonable-sounding way, I'll try to give credence to the nutjob paranoid fantasy that Beamdog is pushing some kind of political agenda on players, maybe trying to turn Baldur's Gate into a real-world Girdle of Gender Change that will induce everyone to go out and get sex-reassignment surgery. Basically they are shillings for the plastic surgery industry. Or something.

    It's tired, guys.

    This. So much this.
  • TalysTalys Member Posts: 15
    I don't see the point, what I am saying is that I don't get how they are surprised that people react to politic content, and that they could use their time better in fixing the bugs.
  • prem0nitionprem0nition Member Posts: 65

  • rjmacreadyrjmacready Member Posts: 91
    edited April 2016
    Talys said:

    I don't see the point, what I am saying is that I don't get how they are surprised that people react to politic content, and that they could use their time better in fixing the bugs.

    What I dont get is how a priestess of tempus who mentions her trans background constitutes as forcing politics into the game.

    Its like if BG2 were released today and people kicked off over Valygar. If his dialogue said "hands up, dont shoot" and "black lives matter" I could understand.

    Likewise if Mizhena attacked you for no reason shouting "DIE CISHET OPPRESSOR SCUM" I could understand.

    Right now all Im seeing is blatant insecurity and also some attempts at trying to mask it as legitimate criticism.

    Mentioning bugs is legitimate criticism.

    Saying "I didnt like X about the plot" is legitimate criticism.

    Saying "that trans character is forcing a political agenda on me!" is like saying "beamdog writing the innkeeper of the burnt down inn having his wife leave him is them trying to make me divorce my wife!"
  • IllustairIllustair Member Posts: 878
    @Talys that's true, at least on the time better spent on bug fixing part. So let's not waste their precious time anymore, including modders @subtledoctor Shaman kits were promised IIRC
  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
    Talys said:

    I don't see the point, what I am saying is that I don't get how they are surprised that people react to politic content, and that they could use their time better in fixing the bugs.

    Who's surprised? This has all been a rehash of the same damn arguments people made two years ago about Hexxat. If there's anything that's raising eyebrows, it's that people seem to think howling at Beamdog and calling them SJWs is somehow going to change their minds.
  • UltraB00nUltraB00n Member Posts: 37
    edited April 2016

    Amber Scott never accused the original Baldur's Gate of "being sexist" but was merely critical of certain elements of sexism present in the game.

    When someone proposes with a straight face that humor at the expense of female characters (so what?) and Jaheira being bit of a nag constitute "elements of sexism" that must be rectified and, if you don't like it, well too bad, then you are an toxic SJW and you WILL piss people off.

    Still not convinced that there are SJWs at work here who are misappropriating a beloved RPG franchise to push an identity politics agenda? Guess who Dee reached out to in order to further the "GG campaign" spin? Yep, Gawker Media feminist website Jezebel and, get this, Anita Sarkeesian.. Those are the people they want to impress and whose approval they desire.

  • FrancoisFrancois Member Posts: 452
    edited April 2016

    Amber Scott never accused the original Baldur's Gate of "being sexist" but was merely critical of certain elements of sexism present in the game.

    She's not even right about that. Sexism is discrimination based on sex. Having one single women using her sex appeal in a way they disapprove of is not sexism. Safana-types exist in real life just like Shar-Teel and Jaheira and Alora exist in real life.

    If all the young female characters were clones of Safan that would be a case of sexism. A real exemple of sexism in the old game is having only one gender doing the shitty jobs, such as having only male characters working in the mines or having only males for the generic bandit fodder.
  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
    edited April 2016
    Francois said:

    She's not even right about that. Sexism is discrimination based on sex. Having one single women using her sex appeal in a way they disapprove of is not sexism. Safana-types exist in real life just like Shar-Teel and Jaheira and Alora exist in real life.

    Yes, but in real life, people are not just one thing. A woman who uses her sex appeal in real life does not always use her sex appeal for everything. Amber's (valid) point is that, as a video game character, Safana doesn't have the opportunity to do anything other than use her sex appeal, just as Jaheira doesn't have all that much to say besides berating Khalid (remembering again that we're talking about unmodded BG1 Jaheira and not the BG1NPC version so many people are familiar with). The intent with SoD is to let them do more.
  • FrancoisFrancois Member Posts: 452
    edited April 2016
    shawne said:

    Yes, but in real life, people are not just one thing. A woman who uses her sex appeal in real life does not always use her sex appeal for everything.

    True, but that is the case for all the BG1 NPC. They all had a handful of lines and nothing else. It's not like Safana is any different in that respect. All of them would gain by being better fleshed out. There is nothing about Safana that constitutes sexism. I haven't played the game yet, so maybe I will like it, but the way it was said in the interview it sounded like this kind of character would be unthinkable 20 years later.
  • Yann1989Yann1989 Member Posts: 92
    Francois said:

    Sexism is discrimination based on sex.

    If I abide by the definition of discrimination, which means making a difference and treating differently according to that difference - please be careful that "differently" does not mean "in a worse way" - then we are all sexists. Either that definition is not precise enough or it is not necessarily bad to be sexist. Indeed it depends on how differently you treat the two categories of people, why & whether it is fair or if it is unfair.

    Example 1: I have only been interested in women for mating.
    Example 2: I am making a movie and I am looking for a man to act Batman.

    These 2 examples seem fair enough, right? But in these 2 examples I discriminate according to sex. Does it mean I'm chaotic evil? I don't think so.
  • FrancoisFrancois Member Posts: 452
    edited April 2016
    Yann1989 said:

    These 2 examples seem fair enough, right? But in these 2 examples I discriminate according to sex. Does it mean I'm chaotic evil? I don't think so.

    Let me rephrase the definition more precisely. It is discrimination when the different treatment is based on something that is irrelevant to the decision or when it is generalized to a whole group. Choosing a mating partner is a sexual decision, therefore choosing one sex over the other is not discrimination. Choosing a specific race for a specific role may or may not be discrimination depending on how relevant the race is to the storyline (for exemple a movie about a historical figure). Choosing a specific sex/race for a specific character is not discrimination, because sex and race are an integral part of a character. But saying that only men could play a certain type of roles would be sexist, just like refusing to hire a cab on the basis of their race/gender would be discrimination.



  • sersafirsersafir Member Posts: 126

    Amber Scott never accused the original Baldur's Gate of "being sexist" but was merely critical of certain elements of sexism present in the game. To me, there's a significant difference there. You may not agree with that, but I think it's important to accurately state what was said, in addition to your own thoughts and interpretations.

    What is the difference between me having elements of sexism and being sexist?
  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
    sersafir said:

    What is the difference between me having elements of sexism and being sexist?

    If you have elements of sexism, you have other elements as well. If you are sexist, that is your primary attribute. (Did that really need to be spelled out?)
  • sersafirsersafir Member Posts: 126
    shawne said:

    sersafir said:

    What is the difference between me having elements of sexism and being sexist?

    If you have elements of sexism, you have other elements as well. If you are sexist, that is your primary attribute. (Did that really need to be spelled out?)
    That doesn't make sense to me. If that's the case there's no one in the planet who is sexist. Because every person has elements besides sexism.
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    Talys said:

    I don't see the point, what I am saying is that I don't get how they are surprised that people react to politic content, and that they could use their time better in fixing the bugs.

    Because to the Devs, and everyone outside of Trump-merica and the Islamic State there is no "politic content", just things that ceased being an issue many years ago.
  • Diogenes42Diogenes42 Member Posts: 597
    Greetings friends. I would like to point out that it is always good to examine the things we enjoy with a critical eye from time to time. That doesn't mean that the things we like become bad or that we don't like them anymore.

    As an example: I enjoy reading many myths and legends, and as I read the I often notice the heroes performing actions which I myself do not consider heroic such as killing defenceless opponents or the enslavement of enemies they captured in battle. I still enjoy and would recommend the stories despite this.
  • oldlamehandoldlamehand Member Posts: 39
    edited April 2016
    “If there was something for the original Baldur’s Gate that just doesn’t mesh for modern day gamers like the sexism, [we tried to address that],” said writer Amber Scott. “In the original there’s a lot of jokes at women’s expense."
    I'm realy affraid of the future without element's of sexism, racism, homophobia, xenophobia or jokes at sobebody's expense.
    I think reasonable amount of such elements in books, movie and games is one of the things, which make them amusing and interesting. It is not sociopathological phonomenon, which should be unacceptable in moderm pop culture.
    Post edited by oldlamehand on
  • Diogenes42Diogenes42 Member Posts: 597
    In that case my friend I think it is likely that those jokes or stories you enjoy so much are intended to be somewhat "taboo" so part of the humour/intrigue comes from the rudeness or subversiveness. In which case they will only become more amusing as sexism becomes less accepted in polite company.
  • InsultionInsultion Member Posts: 179

    Amber Scott never accused the original Baldur's Gate of "being sexist" but was merely critical of certain elements of sexism present in the game. To me, there's a significant difference there. You may not agree with that, but I think it's important to accurately state what was said, in addition to your own thoughts and interpretations.

    I am curious, what IS that difference?
  • oldlamehandoldlamehand Member Posts: 39
    edited April 2016

    In that case my friend I think it is likely that those jokes or stories you enjoy so much are intended to be somewhat "taboo" so part of the humour/intrigue comes from the rudeness or subversiveness. In which case they will only become more amusing as sexism becomes less accepted in polite company.

    This evolution is wrong. Very wrong. I think most of people (including me) would not enjoy books, movies or games where gloryfication of sexism or racims is the central theme.
    I only think that these elements,as long as they are used in reasonable amount and as long as they fit into the story should have their place in pup culture.

    I think game developers shouldn't pay so much attention to relativelly small, but very lowd group of social justice wariors, who find almost EVERYTHING discriminatory or offensive.

    What would remain in pop culture, if we banish everithing what doesn't promote gender equality or what could possible offend somebody?

    Will chess be alowd in the future? It is terrible racist games with conflict between black and white. Morower the white always starts the game and it is very discriminatory.

    Well I know this chess example is exaggerated, but sadly it is not miles away from today's reality.
  • Diogenes42Diogenes42 Member Posts: 597
    Conversely, what would happen to if we refused to allow the idea that anything was too offensive or disrespectful? A good idea to explore maybe, thank you for the inspiration friend.
  • oldlamehandoldlamehand Member Posts: 39
    edited April 2016

    Conversely, what would happen to if we refused to allow the idea that anything was too offensive or disrespectful? A good idea to explore maybe, thank you for the inspiration friend.

    I have no problem with idea anything was offensive or disrspectfull. I have no problems with feminist hags like Anita Sarkeesian who constanly yells how everithing is sexist or offensive...as long as game developers ignore them.
    When game develpers start to listen to then, the consequences are tragical.
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