Why do mages need Dexterity?

Taishar

I thought that was just for melee type charecters? Mages, i thoght, needed max intel and then Con, Wisdom (or not, as prefered for Lore/Luck), Str, Char in that order?

ekster

They need Dex so they don't trip when running around in robes.

And avoiding arrows and swords when casting is also a nice bonus.

But on a more serious note, from memory, I believe you just needed high dex for an illusionist, which is what 2nd edition uses.

Awong124

High dex provides an AC bonus. And it's common for mages to favor using ranged weapons, and high dex gives bonus to THAC0.

ST4TICStriker

Dexterity gives some very nice AC bonuses.

In BG:EE Your prefered stats should be: (In this order)

Dexterity 18: For AC bonuses.

Con 16: For the HP per level bonuses.

Int 18: For scribing spells and how many spells you can hold in your book.

Str: For carry wieght.

Cha: For morale and party related arguments

Wis: For lore (Lore is terrible)

fighter_mage_thief

Taishar said:

I thought that was just for melee type charecters? Mages, i thoght, needed max intel and then Con, Wisdom (or not, as prefered for Lore/Luck), Str, Char in that order?

Well technically, the only stat a mage needs is intelligence, at 9 or above, granting the ability to cast spells. Back in 1st ed dnd, I think that all stats were far less pronounced, including levels. Fighters were 1d8, clerics 1d6, and magic-users/thieves at 1d4. Stats at 14 I think gave +1 (HP/dmg/AC,etc.), and at 18 +2, and it was very possible to roll very low stats and do fine.

Mind you, even in BG, 9 intelligence grants you access to up to 4th lvl spells (enough for all of BG 1 pre-TotSC, with only 10 intelligence being required for a pure mage in TotSC, 16 in SoA, and 18 in ToB, and as you know, any wisdom will do for cleric spells)

9, 4th lvl
10, 5th lvl
12, 6th lvl
14, 7th lvl
16, 8th lvl
18, 9th lvl

That being said, I get your point. To make an effective mage, extra con will help the most, and then it's a tossup, like you said between wisdom (great for the wish spells, and makes sense in an rp sense) and dex (marginal AC increase). I typically choose dex, but the gloves of dexterity set it at 18, so wisdom is probably your best bet. Charisma can be set to 18 by the ring (20 with the ring and cloak), and strength can be set to 20, 21, or 22 depending on the belt you use. Meaning your prime stats are intelligence, constitution, and wisdom.

HeroicSpur

I was arguing earlier that more needs to be done to make intelligence a morth worthwile stat, and just reading @fighter_mage_thief's post shows exactly why. Fighters with higher strength gain significant bonuses to their combat power, while an extremely intelligent mage is no different (for practical purposes) than a dumb int 9 one.

The only stats mages need are set out perfectly by ST4TICStriker (dex 18, con 16, int 10 (18 for going into BG2), and high intelligence can be convenient.

Incidentally with the wish spell, it's possible to speak with someone other than the caster if you're fairly quick.

kilroy_was_here

DEX is actually incredibly important for mages in order to pump up their armor class as has been said. Mages get little AC bonus from most other sources (since they can't... y'know... wear ARMOR) so those few extra points really help, especially a low levels when you don't have armor bracers they can wear. And even if you do have bracers, the DEX bonus stacks with every other kind of bonus so it's the gift that keeps on giving.

sandmanCCL

fighter_mage_thief said:

Well technically, the only stat a mage needs is intelligence, at 9 or above, granting the ability to cast spells. Back in 1st ed dnd, I think that all stats were far less pronounced, including levels. Fighters were 1d8, clerics 1d6, and magic-users/thieves at 1d4. Stats at 14 I think gave +1 (HP/dmg/AC,etc.), and at 18 +2, and it was very possible to roll very low stats and do fine.

Mind you, even in BG, 9 intelligence grants you access to up to 4th lvl spells (enough for all of BG 1 pre-TotSC, with only 10 intelligence being required for a pure mage in TotSC, 16 in SoA, and 18 in ToB, and as you know, any wisdom will do for cleric spells)

9, 4th lvl
10, 5th lvl
12, 6th lvl
14, 7th lvl
16, 8th lvl
18, 9th lvl

Max arcane levels accessible due to intelligence was never implemented in the Baldur's Gate engine. You can cast level 9 spells regardless of your INT.

I also think people saying that it doesn't give signficant advantages are missing the point of mages as opposed to sorcerers. Their lifeblood is preparation, therefore the more spells you know per level the better your mage is. Being able to know 18 spells per level with 18 Intelligence is super important if you ask me.

fighter_mage_thief said:

That being said, I get your point. To make an effective mage, extra con will help the most, and then it's a tossup, like you said between wisdom (great for the wish spells, and makes sense in an rp sense) and dex (marginal AC increase). I typically choose dex, but the gloves of dexterity set it at 18, so wisdom is probably your best bet. Charisma can be set to 18 by the ring (20 with the ring and cloak), and strength can be set to 20, 21, or 22 depending on the belt you use. Meaning your prime stats are intelligence, constitution, and wisdom.

I disagree with this assessment.

Wisdom affects Lore and Wish. That's it. Lore is stupid because unless you're a bard, any item you want ID'd you'll cast Identification on. Planning a character just to use one spell that honestly isn't nearly as great as most people make it out to be I also think is pretty silly because you can just quaff a Potion of Insight before you cast it assuming you really need to anyway.

Mages do not want to engage in melee, so maxing dexterity is important. Their base Thac0 is horrible so if you want them to ever land an attack with a sling/dart/throwing dagger, you'll really want a high dexterity. Also -4 AC when you don't have many options to lower your AC otherwise is a huge deal. Relying on the Gauntlets of Dexterity should be left to NPCs who really need it because a Mage will really want Bracers of AC in his/her glove slots instead. Plus, they are really hard to get in BG2 without planning ahead of time because getting stuck in a pit full of angry Beholders before you're ready to really fight them is a bad idea.

So prime stats are Intelligence, Constitution, Dexterity. I find it's pretty easy to max all of that and still keep everything else at 10, at the least.

elminster

The thing you really least need especially as a mage is charisma. Presumably you are not going to be the person in your party who is doing the talking, since you want your fighters to be ahead of your mage. For a mage the most important stats are intelligence, dexterity, and constitution (the latter of which you only need set at 16 unless you are a gnome). The other two stats, strength and wisdom, are really left up to you. I would recommend as SandmanCCL says that you keep them around 10 (or above) which should be possible.

ST4TICStriker

elminster said:

The thing you really least need especially as a mage is charisma. Presumably you are not going to be the person in your party who is doing the talking, since you want your fighters to be ahead of your mage. For a mage the most important stats are intelligence, dexterity, and constitution (the latter of which you only need set at 16 unless you are a gnome). The other two stats, strength and wisdom, are really left up to you. I would recommend as SandmanCCL says that you keep them around 10 (or above) which should be possible.

I would argue that Wisdom is less useful then charisma. Wisdom literally has no effect outside the wish spell but as @SandmanCCL said you can just quiff a potion of insight to get wisdom 18 while you cast it.

sandmanCCL

Charisma is more useful on a mage than it is on a lot of other characters.

Level 1 spell "Friends" straight up gives 6 charisma. So if you have 14 on your mage, you can just pop that spell and get the max shop discount.

Alternatively, just bring a bard. They can't have less than 15 charisma anyway and can do the same thing.

Taishar

Thank you all, you have been most helpful and I really appreciate it. Would it be possible to lock the thread now so we don't get an arguement (like what happened in that other thread)?

You guys are a great community, i wouldnt know what to do without ya!

elminster

sandmanCCL said:

Charisma is more useful on a mage than it is on a lot of other characters.

Level 1 spell "Friends" straight up gives 6 charisma. So if you have 14 on your mage, you can just pop that spell and get the max shop discount.

Alternatively, just bring a bard. They can't have less than 15 charisma anyway and can do the same thing.

True but I never see the value in doing so. Between the ring of human influence and the nymph cloak (which you can get early in BG2) I never see a point in using up a level one spell for friends in BG2. There is more of a point to using friends in BG1, though with a little pickpocketing that can be mostly solved if you have someone like ajantis leading your party.

sandmanCCL

I tend to do my shopping in spurts and I have no problem with changing up my spell list especially when I'm already going to be that close to an Inn to rest and change them again for another hearty day of adventuring.

Different strokes for different folks. Just pointing out a possibility. That's all.

elminster

Yep. I'm mostly just lazy

mlnevese

Hey people remember this is the newbie forum. Be careful with spoilers.

lordkim

@ST4TICStriker said:

Dexterity gives some very nice AC bonuses.

In BG:EE Your prefered stats should be: (In this order)


Dexterity 18: For AC bonuses.

Con 16: For the HP per level bonuses.

Int 18: For scribing spells and how many spells you can hold in your book.

Str: For carry wieght.

Cha: For morale and party related arguments

Wis: For lore (Lore is terrible)

Isnt Wisdom also needed for Priests ?? For their Spells ?

LordsDarkKnight185

lordkim said:

@ST4TICStriker said:

Dexterity gives some very nice AC bonuses.

In BG:EE Your prefered stats should be: (In this order)


Dexterity 18: For AC bonuses.

Con 16: For the HP per level bonuses.

Int 18: For scribing spells and how many spells you can hold in your book.

Str: For carry wieght.

Cha: For morale and party related arguments

Wis: For lore (Lore is terrible)

Isnt Wisdom also needed for Priests ?? For their Spells ?

YES! ...But we are not talking about priests. We are talking about Wizards.

Dragonfolk2000

A high dex is good for any character as it improves the character's AC.

fighter_mage_thief

sandmanCCL said:

fighter_mage_thief said:

Well technically, the only stat a mage needs is intelligence, at 9 or above, granting the ability to cast spells. Back in 1st ed dnd, I think that all stats were far less pronounced, including levels. Fighters were 1d8, clerics 1d6, and magic-users/thieves at 1d4. Stats at 14 I think gave +1 (HP/dmg/AC,etc.), and at 18 +2, and it was very possible to roll very low stats and do fine.

Mind you, even in BG, 9 intelligence grants you access to up to 4th lvl spells (enough for all of BG 1 pre-TotSC, with only 10 intelligence being required for a pure mage in TotSC, 16 in SoA, and 18 in ToB, and as you know, any wisdom will do for cleric spells)

9, 4th lvl
10, 5th lvl
12, 6th lvl
14, 7th lvl
16, 8th lvl
18, 9th lvl

Max arcane levels accessible due to intelligence was never implemented in the Baldur's Gate engine. You can cast level 9 spells regardless of your INT.

I also think people saying that it doesn't give signficant advantages are missing the point of mages as opposed to sorcerers. Their lifeblood is preparation, therefore the more spells you know per level the better your mage is. Being able to know 18 spells per level with 18 Intelligence is super important if you ask me.

fighter_mage_thief said:

That being said, I get your point. To make an effective mage, extra con will help the most, and then it's a tossup, like you said between wisdom (great for the wish spells, and makes sense in an rp sense) and dex (marginal AC increase). I typically choose dex, but the gloves of dexterity set it at 18, so wisdom is probably your best bet. Charisma can be set to 18 by the ring (20 with the ring and cloak), and strength can be set to 20, 21, or 22 depending on the belt you use. Meaning your prime stats are intelligence, constitution, and wisdom.

I disagree with this assessment.

Wisdom affects Lore and Wish. That's it. Lore is stupid because unless you're a bard, any item you want ID'd you'll cast Identification on. Planning a character just to use one spell that honestly isn't nearly as great as most people make it out to be I also think is pretty silly because you can just quaff a Potion of Insight before you cast it assuming you really need to anyway.

Mages do not want to engage in melee, so maxing dexterity is important. Their base Thac0 is horrible so if you want them to ever land an attack with a sling/dart/throwing dagger, you'll really want a high dexterity. Also -4 AC when you don't have many options to lower your AC otherwise is a huge deal. Relying on the Gauntlets of Dexterity should be left to NPCs who really need it because a Mage will really want Bracers of AC in his/her glove slots instead. Plus, they are really hard to get in BG2 without planning ahead of time because getting stuck in a pit full of angry Beholders before you're ready to really fight them is a bad idea.

So prime stats are Intelligence, Constitution, Dexterity. I find it's pretty easy to max all of that and still keep everything else at 10, at the least.

I'm not sure about BG1, but in BG2, you won't be able to scribe spells of higher levels without the proper intelligence, but you will get the spell slots. It's easily remedied by using a potion of genius though.

As for dexterity, I'm not saying it's useless, just saying it's not required, nor is constitution, or even a very high intelligence. It's really a question of how overpowered you want to make your character, since you have the option of going up to 18 in all stats, and can easily roll a character with three or more 16s and 18s.

Also, while I like wisdom for limited wish and wish, they are mostly gimmicks, and I use them for kicks, especially considering wish especially is so overpowered if you get some decent options. It can mix things up a bit though, which can be fun, like casting Improved Haste on all enemies, or casting Horrid Wilting on everyone in the area, although you can also get Improved Haste on the party, have your spells fully restored, or get a double length Timestop with Improved Alacrity. I assume you already know, I'm just saying for others. They are fun spells, but I could easily do without them, or HLAs for that matter (too cheesy imo).

lordkim

LordsDarkKnight185 said:

lordkim said:

@ST4TICStriker said:

Dexterity gives some very nice AC bonuses.

In BG:EE Your prefered stats should be: (In this order)


Dexterity 18: For AC bonuses.

Con 16: For the HP per level bonuses.

Int 18: For scribing spells and how many spells you can hold in your book.

Str: For carry wieght.

Cha: For morale and party related arguments

Wis: For lore (Lore is terrible)

Isnt Wisdom also needed for Priests ?? For their Spells ?

YES! ...But we are not talking about priests. We are talking about Wizards.

But.....Im...Dammit..

Medillen

Taishar said:

Thank you all, you have been most helpful and I really appreciate it. Would it be possible to lock the thread now so we don't get an arguement (like what happened in that other thread)?

Owkay, let's keep it not too complex for beginners The answer were pretty straightforward but I do sense some slight spoilers. Topic lockdown in 10...9...