Kith's Shapeshifter Rework
Kithrixx
Member Posts: 215
Yeah, we're back here again. Posted in FR because it seemed a lot more appropriate to me than just arguing about it in the thread over in bugs.
Shapeshifter
This druid is not called shapeshifter because he has access to a great variety of forms, rather because of his complete dedication to a single alternate form. This druid has willingly allowed himself to become infected with lycanthropy, but due to intense study and training he has the ability to control his affliction. The creature he becomes is that of the werewolf, the most famous of the lycanthrope shape changers.
Advantages:
May shapeshift into the form of a werewolf once per day for every 4 levels (starts at 1st level with one use). This form becomes progressively more powerful as the Shapeshifter becomes more disciplined in controlling it, gaining unique bonuses.
Disadvantages:
No other shapeshifting abilities due to the effort required maintaining balance in his primary forms.
Cannot wear any armor.
Werewolf Form Bonuses:
These bonuses only apply while the Shapeshifter is in his/her Werewolf form.
Gain 2% magic resistance per level.
Every 3 levels, gain a +1 bonus to Strength, Constitution, and Dexterity.
Every 4 levels, gain a –2 bonus to THAC0.
Every 5 levels, gain an additional half attack per round.
Every 6 levels, increase paw damage by one dice category (referenced below).
Every 7 levels, paws gain a +1 enchantment to hit (+2 at 14, +3 at 21, +4 at 27) and are treated as magic weapons of that level.
Every 8 levels, gain +1 health regeneration per round (2 per round at level 16 and 3 per round at level 24)
At level 10, gain 30% Elemental resistance and increase it by 3% every 2 levels thereafter.
At Level 15, gain immunity to normal weapons.
Paw damage:
Level 1: 1d6
Level 6: 1d8
Level 12: 1d10
Level 18: 1d12
Level 24: 2d6
Level 30: 2d8
THAC0:
Level 1: 16
Level 4: 14
Level 8: 12
Level 12: 10
Level 16: 8
Level 20: 6
Level 24: 4
Level 28: 2
Notes:
Fairly basic stuff. Instead of making it “you get x form at y level”, I made it progress via bonuses. I think that’s the most appropriate way to do it, because the idea behind the Shapeshifter is that the more experienced they get with the lycanthropy, the more aware of the limits they become and the more comfortable they are with easing up on holding back while still maintaining control. Did some rudimentary tests and it shouldn’t be too powerful during the events of Baldur’s Gate while still having the ability to progress to the point of being powerful enough to contend comfortably in Baldur’s Gate II.
High Level Abilities:
Considering the Shapeshifter’s specialization, I don’t think he should get access to the Earth Elemental or Fire Elemental shapeshifting. I also think the Totemic Druid should skip out on those as well, but I’m sure the internal balance team is already doing that sort of thing considering they’ve already rebalanced him. I’d also really like to see a “cast while shapeshifted” HLA, mainly because Druids are kind of hurting without it. Hell, I’d love to see it as a standard feature (because Druids kinda suck compared to every other class), but that may be asking too much.
Anyways, the alternative for our Shapeshifter friend:
Black Dog Transformation
Harnessing the very spirit of lycanthropy itself, this powerful shapechange ability allows the druid to become a black werewolf of immense power for 4 rounds.
Black Dog stats:
24 HD
4 attacks per round, counted as +5 weapons that deal 2d10 slashing damage
THAC0 of 0
Base AC of 0
Str, Dex, Con set to 25
Regenerates 6 HP per round
75% Magic resistance
Immunity to normal weapons
Immunity to elemental damage
Notes:
A very nasty damage-dealing machine, balanced by the fact that it lacks the end-of-transformation heal that the other HLA transformations have. Instead, it has regeneration during the transformation. I figured that it would use the same model/effect that I recall seeing many times in the campaign; a black tinted or masked Werewolf model with glowing red eyes.
Changelog
Shapeshifter
This druid is not called shapeshifter because he has access to a great variety of forms, rather because of his complete dedication to a single alternate form. This druid has willingly allowed himself to become infected with lycanthropy, but due to intense study and training he has the ability to control his affliction. The creature he becomes is that of the werewolf, the most famous of the lycanthrope shape changers.
Advantages:
May shapeshift into the form of a werewolf once per day for every 4 levels (starts at 1st level with one use). This form becomes progressively more powerful as the Shapeshifter becomes more disciplined in controlling it, gaining unique bonuses.
Disadvantages:
No other shapeshifting abilities due to the effort required maintaining balance in his primary forms.
Cannot wear any armor.
Werewolf Form Bonuses:
These bonuses only apply while the Shapeshifter is in his/her Werewolf form.
Gain 2% magic resistance per level.
Every 3 levels, gain a +1 bonus to Strength, Constitution, and Dexterity.
Every 4 levels, gain a –2 bonus to THAC0.
Every 5 levels, gain an additional half attack per round.
Every 6 levels, increase paw damage by one dice category (referenced below).
Every 7 levels, paws gain a +1 enchantment to hit (+2 at 14, +3 at 21, +4 at 27) and are treated as magic weapons of that level.
Every 8 levels, gain +1 health regeneration per round (2 per round at level 16 and 3 per round at level 24)
At level 10, gain 30% Elemental resistance and increase it by 3% every 2 levels thereafter.
At Level 15, gain immunity to normal weapons.
Paw damage:
Level 1: 1d6
Level 6: 1d8
Level 12: 1d10
Level 18: 1d12
Level 24: 2d6
Level 30: 2d8
THAC0:
Level 1: 16
Level 4: 14
Level 8: 12
Level 12: 10
Level 16: 8
Level 20: 6
Level 24: 4
Level 28: 2
Notes:
Fairly basic stuff. Instead of making it “you get x form at y level”, I made it progress via bonuses. I think that’s the most appropriate way to do it, because the idea behind the Shapeshifter is that the more experienced they get with the lycanthropy, the more aware of the limits they become and the more comfortable they are with easing up on holding back while still maintaining control. Did some rudimentary tests and it shouldn’t be too powerful during the events of Baldur’s Gate while still having the ability to progress to the point of being powerful enough to contend comfortably in Baldur’s Gate II.
High Level Abilities:
Considering the Shapeshifter’s specialization, I don’t think he should get access to the Earth Elemental or Fire Elemental shapeshifting. I also think the Totemic Druid should skip out on those as well, but I’m sure the internal balance team is already doing that sort of thing considering they’ve already rebalanced him. I’d also really like to see a “cast while shapeshifted” HLA, mainly because Druids are kind of hurting without it. Hell, I’d love to see it as a standard feature (because Druids kinda suck compared to every other class), but that may be asking too much.
Anyways, the alternative for our Shapeshifter friend:
Black Dog Transformation
Harnessing the very spirit of lycanthropy itself, this powerful shapechange ability allows the druid to become a black werewolf of immense power for 4 rounds.
Black Dog stats:
24 HD
4 attacks per round, counted as +5 weapons that deal 2d10 slashing damage
THAC0 of 0
Base AC of 0
Str, Dex, Con set to 25
Regenerates 6 HP per round
75% Magic resistance
Immunity to normal weapons
Immunity to elemental damage
Notes:
A very nasty damage-dealing machine, balanced by the fact that it lacks the end-of-transformation heal that the other HLA transformations have. Instead, it has regeneration during the transformation. I figured that it would use the same model/effect that I recall seeing many times in the campaign; a black tinted or masked Werewolf model with glowing red eyes.
Changelog
September 19:
Added THAC0 progression, which I completely forgot about in the original draft. THAC0 improves by 2 every 4 levels.
Changed the Level 7 bonus from "are treated as" to "are enchanted to be". Instead of just being treated as +1/+2/+3/+4, they will actually recieve +1/+2/+3/+4 to hit (but not to damage). The bonus is only applied to hit, as damage is already boosted by the paw damage dice category bonuses and stat bonuses.
Updated Black Dog's resistances, as I forgot to make it immune to normal weapons. After thinking about it, immunity to magic seemed cheesy, so I just dropped a huge resistance on it rather than immunity.
September 20:
Updated regeneration rate to clarify that it's supposed to be per round.
Added THAC0 progression, which I completely forgot about in the original draft. THAC0 improves by 2 every 4 levels.
Changed the Level 7 bonus from "are treated as" to "are enchanted to be". Instead of just being treated as +1/+2/+3/+4, they will actually recieve +1/+2/+3/+4 to hit (but not to damage). The bonus is only applied to hit, as damage is already boosted by the paw damage dice category bonuses and stat bonuses.
Updated Black Dog's resistances, as I forgot to make it immune to normal weapons. After thinking about it, immunity to magic seemed cheesy, so I just dropped a huge resistance on it rather than immunity.
September 20:
Updated regeneration rate to clarify that it's supposed to be per round.
Post edited by Kithrixx on
10
Comments
So the reason for this rework (if you didn't go check out the discussion in the original thread over in bugs) is because, frankly, the Shapeshifter kit is kinda crap. The idea behind it is certainly interesting enough; to be able to switch freely between a striker and a caster, with the cons being the striker doesn't really get any of the super neat Fighter bonuses and the caster... well, is a Druid.
The problem is that BGII significantly nerfed the Werewolf form (therefore making it not worth transforming into) and also significantly nerfed the standard form (which was a meh caster in the first place that now cannot even wear decent armor). The other problem was that, after the Shapeshifter got appropriate Werewolf abilities, it was looked at and said "Oh God, this will tear Baldur's Gate I in half." I didn't really want to deal with people fighting over the fiddly bits of nerfing and un-nerfing and adjusting the Werewolf/Greater Werewolf forms, so I went ahead and wrote up a big fat rework ditching both of those creature templates and aimed around making a new one: the Shapeshifter Werewolf, which got progressively more powerful as the Druid leveled.
Now that all of the effectiveness is tied to a "per level" basis, we needn't deal with flat bonuses being overpowered in one situation and underpowered in the next because the level scaling will do that job for us. Let me know what you folks think, and if there's anything that I missed.
Also, I'm aware that this isn't "by the book", as it were. That doesn't really bother me, because I designed it around the idea of being balanced, and for that matter, we've already got plenty of non-2nd stuff in Baldur's Gate (Sorcerers, for instance).
Compare to the Earth Elemental and Fire Elemental HLAs, which is what I based my stats off of. Both have massively boosted stats (which, unfortunately, are not listed by the page), deal huge amounts of damage, and are extremely durable. The Black Dog transformation deals more damage than they do (although slashing rather than crushing so more damage resistances come into play), while trading off the burst healing at the end of the shapeshift and better ACs.
@Cheesebelly
Well, when your class is geared towards "transform, then flip out and kill things", yeah. Either way, the stats just confer to hit and damage bonuses. As far as I'm aware, the Slayer would actually deal more damage than the Black Dog, but I haven't had the chance to test it and (unfortunately) I'm not actually in a position that would allow me to.
Black Dog has a far worse AC - base of 0. It's a lot easier to hit than the Slayer is. I'd say any other stats that the Black Dog has over the Slayer is just a result of the Shapeshifter's constant training and discipline in striving to master the form of the Lycanthrope as opposed to a crazy transformation shoved upon a character due to the magical powers of super murder. It's the same logic around a well-trained fighter being able to outdamage a musclehead on a roid rage.
Personally I like what you're doing with the class. Not entirely sure how I feel about the Black Dog ability yet. The name seems a bit off to me. (Alpha Wolf sounds cooler)
Really digging the overall direction, though!
As an HLA it should not be linked to a single kit, as no HLA in the game has this kind of limit, except in very special situations (swashbucklers doesn't have assassination HLA option as they don't backstab).
Instead of add this black wolf feature as an HLA you could make as the own game do it, and add as a bonus shift at higher levels, i personally think that the greater werewold is already a good upgrade and maybe class bonus to be used while in great wherewolf form would fit better.
I truly like your implement of an HLA for druids to cast spells while shfted.
I would make the werewolf and any other shifted druid to have some unique spells to be cast only in shfted form, as i believe a werewolf druid is much more a fighter of the nature than a killing machine, unlike a common person inflicted with lycantrophy (and i mean nature in all it's savagery, not the fluffy goody tree hugs that some people think of druids). The way you made the werewolf, he's pratically a 2° monk option.
But it's your mod (for what i see, i believe you're making one) so i just mean to add on your work not criticize whitout reason.
I have a fondness for Black Dog Mythology and what it represents, and found it to be more appropriate.
@kamuizin
I have my own reasons for its naming (referenced above). As for the implementations of HLAs, I thought it would be neat for every class kit to have specifically tailored HLAs to add a bit more depth to character creation. They did it with the swashbuckler (for obvious reasons) and I'd like to see it happen for other classes as well.
I'd limit casting in shapeshifted form to be a HLA, assuming that the call was mine to make. Yes, the Werewolf is very similar to the Monk, but missing many of the key features that a Monk has available to them that make Monks so unique and powerful. Immunity to diseases and poisons, Stunning Fist, Quivering Palm, Bonus AC per level, bonus saves, immunity to slowing (the immunity to haste will be removed with the update), and some other stuff that I probably forgot. The Shapeshifter Werewolf will be a powerful melee combatant, but not as good as the Monk. Not by a long shot. The reason that it's not as good (and why I'm perfectly fine with it being not as good) is because, like I've mentioned before, if the Werewolf thing doesn't work out, it's not like the character is out of options. They're still a Druid, and can still cast.
I'm not a modder, incidentally. I don't know the first thing about code other than how to design solutions that don't make coders want to throttle me, and even then that's hit or miss. No, I'm just a designer; I've been hired to do such things in the past and it's what I'm really good at, sooo... I figured I'd do that thing that I do and if Overhaul/Beamdog likes it, they can make use of it.
What I meant by charts was a list of each creature that will be the transformation target for each Shapeshifter druid level along with an account of how the level increase changed the progressive powers. This was simplified with Totemic druids by creating 5 stages for each of the 4 animals: Lvl1-2, Lvl3-4, Lvl5-6, Lvl7-9, Lvl10-12. (Didn't bother trying to forge new ones for BG2EE yet...) Creating a new CRE for every single level... would be a bit much... Maybe could be done, but... trying to make this a more reasonable project given it is only one class out of a score or so... But for sure the player should feel the level increases during the early stages, so the progression would move faster early on.
I get what you're saying about keeping the tank aspect given the fact that the Druid already has magic to wield as an extra. I'm not sure what good that does since they can't cast in werewolf form, but since the Shapeshifter is a sort of David Banner/Dr. Jekyll/Magic-caster v Incredible Hulk/Mr. Hyde/Tank, maybe it is better to just keep the werewolf as the raw power that the caster can't be.
Anyway I'll get back with you on this in a bit... I kind of like the Black Dog idea for another reason: the original BG3 was allegedly a story about a Black Dog that would haunt the player's experience until its intent was finally revealed. But really right now I'm more focused on the BG1EE manifestations, even if the fuller scope does help get a better sense of the entire progression.
Con is completely useless to druids over 16. There is nothing in this template to suggest that this will change. At best, werewolves would gain minor hp regeneration which, unless EE changes how regeneration works, will not stack.
Dexterity, going from 18 to 22 dexterity means -1 armor and plus to missile adjustment. The armor is minor and how many werewolves shoot bows?
I'd presume these specified stats would be capped fairly quickly in that event.
2 additional Thaco.
4 additional damage.
1 additional armor.
A kensai going from 8 to 22 would gain +5 thaco and damage.
Edit: A few mistakes.
EDIT 3: Now, adding in the other abilities, the same werewolf would gain +2 thaco from claw enchants by then. The thaco chart is much behind a fighter of equivalent level. The werewolf would have 5/2 attacks per round. (A Kensai of the same level with mere specialization would have 5/2 with 1 weapon). The werewolf would, however, have 36% magic resistance, 2 HP regeneration (I'm unsure if OP means per round, turn, or what), paws would deal 1d12, immunity to normal weapons, and some electrical resistance.
So, the gist is, a shifter can't wear armor. The werewolf from this chart shares the shifter's AC as far as I can tell. At level 18, a shifter would finally have an ac equal to our Kensai. The kensai would have a much better thaco (At least 9 more by my count with a non magical weapon and mere proficiency), the Kensai would have more pluses for damage (1 + weapon enchant +proficiency) traded for a slightly bigger die on the werewolf. A mere +1 longsword would set the Kensai as equal on the average damage front without proficiency bonuses. Realistically, let's say a +3 longsword with +3 damage from proficiency. 5 damage on average more than the werewolf and 14 more thaco. Add in the possibilities of two weapons at once or better weapons.
A few nice perks, magic resistance, immunity vs normal weapons, health regen traded for 5 damage and 14 thaco.
Which means, with a better weapon, a normal fighter of the same level would *still* do more damage and MUCH more thaco than the werewolf. The fighter would have more hp than the werewolf. The werewolf would be better against certain enemies (mages)
Edit 4: I forgot to consider buffs that druids could cast before shifting. I feel like the level 18 shifter would win a combat vs a level 22 kensai if the shifter self-buffed.
I'm actually not attempting to criticize Kithrixx's build, and also was not aware that he receives such little benefits from having maxed stats.
Keep further in mind that at level 15, druids gain HLAs and thus, in this build, could use the black hound and make this entire discussion irrelevant.
As long as they don't receive hefty benefits from reaching capped stats along with the growing bonuses to damage/thaco and special bonuses from his werewolf form, then this discussion is now redundant.
Only in werewolf form, yes. Anything else would be pretty silly.
@Zaor
Well, thanks for doing my job for me. :P Yeah, the regeneration is per round. I'll update the OP with that.
@Bhryaen
While it is indeed something that undoubtedly needs fixed, I think this rework of mine would fit better as a feature request, as it’s requesting the Shapeshifter be fixed in a very specific way. Class reworks for those that desperately need it are half bugfix and half feature request.
I didn’t think that it would be literally a new CRE for each level. The way that it was explained to me was that it would be a single CRE that was assigned behaviors depending on what level the Shapeshifter was at the time. If it’s required to have each level of bonuses being a specific CRE, I don’t think it would be a difficult task to cut it down to 6 “levels” of transformation, as it were. If you guys (I’m assuming the devs, or really anyone with authority) need to figure out how to fix the less useful classes, I’d absolutely love to help. Class/character design and balance is one of the things that I do for a living. Drop me a line and point me in the right direction and I’ll get to work.
There’s a lot of spiffy stuff that the Druid can do as a Druid, and also a lot of buffs he can toss on himself before he gets fuzzy, but that’s not really the point. Playing a Shapeshifter (at least under this rework), you’ll essentially have two characters in one and you’ll be able to (almost, there is a change-per-day limit) freely switch between the two. While you can’t use the powers of both at the same time, there’s a lot to be said for being able to alternate between two configurations on the fly without penalties because you’re going full tilt either way rather than half-and-halfing it like a Fighter/Mage.
The Black Dog and BG3 thing is exceptionally funny – I didn’t know that. I decided that doing the entire level progression would be the most appropriate thing because A: it was possible to see how it was supposed to match up to the other classes in the long run and B: I… don’t actually know what the level cap for BG:EE is supposed to be, so I just did the entire progression so the powers that be could easily just pick whatever level the character is supposed to cap at. The progression is supposed to be somewhat even, so it could (in theory) be capped at any level and it’d still be fine.
Actually, if the Shapeshifter isn't touched, its actually not that powerful.
Sure, you can have 19 STR, 2 attacks per round and -1 AC at level 1, but that awesomeness doesn't last for long.
Okay, it wouldn't be as broken as the "Can't touch this" abilities of the totemic shaman, but still...
Resistance does not equal immunity, and you can't cast druid spells while in another form. It's pretty great starting out, but not really something I'd base picking a class on. Honestly, I'd much rather have the increase in power be progressive (as the rework) so it's not overpowered at any state.
I know it does not equal immunity, but even 20% is a big deal when one botched attack spell can mean victory instead of defeat. (Oh those pesky mage assasins) As for druidic spells - I never saw it a huge disadvantage not to cast spells while shapechanged. You can buff yourself/party before the change, and cast healing after. There arent that many spells in the beginning anyway.
I was actually saying that altough I like the idea of the kit a lot, I will avoid starting with it unless it gets changed. I am in favor of gradual progression too.
The developers simply had too much stuff to work on, so any balancing of other classes will only happen post-ship. I simply didn't want to bother them with changes to classes/kits when they're not exactly broken, they just suck (with the exception of the Jester that may be a bit overpowered for BG1).
We'll see how things go after BGEE is released into the wilds.
It was only reworked for BGEE (levels 1-10).
When we made suggestions for tweaking the Totemic Druid we also thought of taking another look at the kit for BG2EE, and buff up the spirits a bit (but not much, since you can summon several of them at a time).
After the game is released I am planning on asking the developers to consider fixing the Shapeshifter. The Wizard Slayer is another kit that many ask to have improved. But we'll see.