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Speaking with Charmed Creatures

BhryaenBhryaen Member Posts: 2,874
edited November 2012 in Original BG2 Bugs
In BG2 (the engine of which will be dominating BG1 in BGEE) you're unable to speak with charmed creatures, though there are inaccessible interactions in BG2 that require it to be available. In BG1 speaking with Charmed creatures IS possible. So, although this borders on a feature request, it's arguably a bugfix to restore to the BG2 engine the ability to use Charm to have an otherwise friendly discussion with, say, a merchant, guard, intended pickpocket victim, or the Great Gazib who has gone hostile.
Post edited by Balquo on
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Comments

  • pacekpacek Member Posts: 92
    Certainly is a needed feature. The behaviuour of charm within the Bg2 engine is need need of much more tweaking than this though: consider that a charmed enemy is fully controllable (way OP for a first level spell, AND you gain the benefit of disabling an enemy) but a charmed party member will simply stand and do nothing. If my memory serves this spell in BG1 was much more consitent - both enemies and party members were simply rendered useless.
  • BhryaenBhryaen Member Posts: 2,874
    @pacek Not sure about the "both render them useless" part. For sure I used to be able to use Charm in BG1 to save dialogues that had gone awry by hostility, and I wasn't able anymore when I started using Tutu/BGT- except with a mod. And the mod didn't always work either...
  • pacekpacek Member Posts: 92
    @Bhryaen, I meant useless in a fight scenario. For sure the talking to charmed creatures is handy.
  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    @Galactygon: That's something I've been pushing for as well. I couldn't agree more.
  • HeroicSpurHeroicSpur Member Posts: 907
    There are a significant number of spells which share very similar roles in BG. Charm is one of those. Allowing the pure charm spell to restore dialogue is an excellent way of killing two birds with one stone, by differentiating it from similar mind control spells and resolving an annoying issue (losing dialogue because of hostility).
  • mister_ennuimister_ennui Member Posts: 98
    Apologies for resurrecting this thread, but this is definitely something that should be fixed. Otherwise the special dialogue that existed for some npcs in BG1 when they were charmed would be unavailable. For example, in vanilla BG1, if you charm the nobleman on the ground floor of the Candlekeep Inn his dialogue line changes from:

    "I'm sorry, my wife and I would like some time alone, isn't that right lovey?"

    to

    "It is obvious what you need my good friend. Living in this library fortress must leave you with little in the way of monetary funds. Here, take this 20 gold, it is but a trifle to me, but i'm sure it'll put you on the right track." [As it happens you do not actually receive any gold, so there is a bug in the vanilla game in respect of this particular dialogue].

    Ascension64 actually created a mod that restored the BG1 charm functionality (it may be this mod that Bhyraen is referring to): http://www.shsforums.net/topic/30535-releasepatch-enable-conversations-with-charmeddominated-creatures/

    As I undertand it Ascension64 has been involved in the beta testing of BG:EE so perhaps this issue has been addressed already?
  • hook71hook71 Member, Developer Posts: 582
    Sounds like what Ascension64 has reported as feature request A64_FR39:
    Allow charmed/dominated creatures to initiate dialogue or be spoken to, and maintain their soundsets

    http://cloud.github.com/downloads/Ascension64/TobEx/120715_FEATURES_TobEx_BGEE.pdf
  • mister_ennuimister_ennui Member Posts: 98
    edited August 2012
    That does look like it may be the issue hook71. Personally, I'd classify this as essentially a bug fix rather than a feature, since it would be restoring an aspect of BG1 (the special dialogue that can be had with the charmed npcs) that the BG2 engine removes entirely (as opposed to changing it to a BG2 equivalent).
  • KenKen Member Posts: 226
    Never knew you could do that.. Are there other instances where you could get dialog from a charmed enemy?
  • mister_ennuimister_ennui Member Posts: 98
    edited August 2012
    I have just found this thread, which lists various examples of the special dialogue that charmed npcs can utter:

    http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/threads/completing-nashkel-mines-without-violence-spoilers.107960/
  • luluscadoluluscado Member Posts: 69
    @mister_ennul very interesting link thanks
    mister_ennui said:



    http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/threads/completing-nashkel-mines-without-violence-spoilers.107960/

  • WorgWorg Member Posts: 170
    If this is not fixed, it looks a lot like removing npc dialog.
  • BhryaenBhryaen Member Posts: 2,874
    Leaving it the BG2 way doesn't nix that much dialog, but it does remove a very fun BG1 engine toy to play with: Algernon makes many routine encounters that much more interesting... >:-)
  • mister_ennuimister_ennui Member Posts: 98
    Any word yet on whether this is going to be addressed in BGEE? It would be a shame if the unique BG1 charm dialogue was lost. There is already a fix out there, created by @Ascension64 some time ago.
  • BhryaenBhryaen Member Posts: 2,874
    @mister_ennui
    It's in the works... not sure when/ if it'll be implemented- may be before/ after release. I agree it's a priority. I'm discovering just how much content is lost without it...
  • mister_ennuimister_ennui Member Posts: 98
    @Bhryaen
    Thanks for the update.
  • Avenger_teambgAvenger_teambg Member, Developer Posts: 5,862
    And how much it breaks :D
  • _Q__Q_ Member Posts: 48
    Out of curiosity, are the XP rewards for charming enemies on par with the rewards you get for defeating them in combat? If not, that would make a good post-ship feature request. I like the idea of being able to get through large parts of Baldur's Gate without resorting to combat (like Planescape: Torment).
  • GotNoUsernameGotNoUsername Member Posts: 49
    Hi this should be fixed ASP its breaks a lot of game-play choices . Any news on If/when it will be fixed ?
  • BhryaenBhryaen Member Posts: 2,874
    @GotNoUsername
    It appears at this moment that specific instances are being included, but the full fix is not. Unfortunately it's not a 1-2-3 fix given how sweeping its effect is, so its implementation has to be considered for every dialog it affects to ensure no widespread dialog breaking and bugginess. Where Charmed dialoge has come up, it's been addressed and will be accessible, but the plethora of dialog instances in vBG1 are not going to be addressed by release. It would be very helpful to have a full accounting of all such examples, and I'm not sure if there is such a list available. However, there are those on the Beta Team who fully intend to have it completely addressed in post-release patches.

    Mind you, one Fixed thread already mentions such a fix...
    http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/1186/bg1-restoration-request-noble-and-noblewoman-in-winthrops-inn-0813/p1

    There are more of those specific instances coming in the Fixed threads, so stay tuned...
  • mister_ennuimister_ennui Member Posts: 98
    @Bhryaen
    I expect you've seen it already, but in case you haven't, in a previous post above (5 August) i've included a link to a description of a few of the charm dialogues if it's of any help.
  • BhryaenBhryaen Member Posts: 2,874
    @mister_ennui
    Actually that topic of bypassing Mulahey definitely came up already early on- albeit in a different context- and recently made it out of the confirmation process:
    http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/248/chapter-3-doesnt-trigger-properly-if-mulay-is-killed-outside-of-his-lair-0824/p1

    We were in favor of building a nonviolent way through the encounter- a nice nod to the game Thief even- but for Kevin Richardson's irretractable Chap 3 narration words: "With the death of Mulahey..." Plus there's the dream that also mentions Mulahey's death outright.

    But that's just one example, of course. The bandit camp would be great for that. If that dialog is present in BG1, it ought to be still there in BGEE, just will need a rework to be Algernon-friendly... No wonder that cloak had infinite charges... So it's not just for making Lord Binky the insulting Buffoon commit suicide by Oopah?
  • mister_ennuimister_ennui Member Posts: 98
    @Bhryaen
    I see what you mean about implementing Mulahey's charm dialogue, given that he has to die for the subsequent narration and dream sequence to make sense. One way of dealing with this would perhaps be that if charmed, Mulahey could deliver his charm dialogue and then overcome the charm for some reason and attack.

    The problem with this solution is that it would require a new line of dialogue when Mulvahey "snaps out of" the charm and it would mean that the duration of the charm effect would be inconsistent with how it operates elsewhere in the game.
  • cmorgancmorgan Member Posts: 707
    @mister_ennui, I think here is a great indicator of where a mod can do great things. If you end up wanting a nonviolent resolution, you could mod this encounter to have the possibility of non-violent action - perhaps script in a henchman who clobbers him, or a remorseful M falls on his sword (repeatedly) - and a plausible backstory could be created. There was an effort a few years ago by a person with some very cool non-violent ideas (mod for the non-violent? Pacifist Mod? I can't remember). I think the person got frustrated with the whole "re-invent the game in code" thing. But BG:EE will have both fellow modder and developer support, so it sounds like you might have something you could build your own mod around.
  • BalquoBalquo Member, Developer Posts: 2,746
    The player would have no understanding of geas at that time and therefore the chapter introduction may not make sense. But you could always amend his dialogue to mention geas?

    I'm for a non violent solution and it certainly appears from the way his dialogue works (and the utter laziness that was put into it) that they intended for a non violent option.
  • DrugarDrugar Member Posts: 1,566
    Communard said:

    This would have to be in a mod because it changes the story slightly, but I had an idea.

    It's already established that the Iron Throne sometimes uses Geas spells to ensure loyalty. If Mulahey was under the influence of a Geas whose terms included not revealing his task, and then did so under the influence of a charm spell...he's toast. We get our non-violent solution and the chapter introduction still makes sense. Thoughts?

    Charm does not force people to talk, just makes them believe they're your friend. Even best friends generally don't kill themselves (slowly and painfully) just to confess something.
    Dominate Person might do the trick, though it allows another save when you force a target to do something against their nature or something suicidal (like telling you stuff they're geased against).
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