Should minimum stats be punished or penalized in some way?

magisensei

I was rolling for shaman run through the game when I started to max and min my stats and I had a thought shouldn't a character be penalized in someway for these minimum stats?

For example, if you are a warrior and you scored somewhere in the mid-80s with stats and decided to minimize your INT to 3 because you can - your fighter would essentially be as dumb as brick maybe more so. Doesn't this minimum stat deserve to be penalized in the game.

Imagine going through all the trouble of getting those tomes only to open the book and not be able to read what was written - you after all need a min of 8 INT in order to be literate. Or not being able to follow a battle plan for a group because you couldn't understand it.

With such a low score of 3 - could the main character even pronounce and make clear his thoughts - I can imagine him babbling and looking for the correct word while the NPC or whoever just gets fed up and leaves or attacks.

Or how about a low CHA of 3 - imagine that - you are so disgusting that you can't even enter an inn or store. I can just imagine a very unclean very foul mouthed fighter or something. But if CHA also took into account physical appearance then anything under 6 would be god awful to look at - inns would ban you from entering as would stores and NPCs would have to seriously consider whether or not to join you; and kids would run away screaming monster.

Would Neera for example really join a foul mouthed,smelly, and decided ugly charname if given a choice?

And imagine a very low WIS score of 3 - god - you'd just do whatever came to mind - see a bridge, jump off it; see a really long hallway - walk down it (since traps are not visible); during conversations with bad guys you always pick the worse one - as you are not wise enough to lie or lie in such a bad what that it is obvious; see monsters run up and start hacking away.

What do you think?

Grum

I think that planescape torment handled this the best. There were numerous non-combat ways to solve problems that relied on you having high Int/Wis/Cha. You could also use your strength to intimidate people, and I remember avoiding a fight by snapping someone's neck with high Dex. There, stats really do matter and can change your playthrough. Having a dump stat like int would make your character dumb as a brick.

deltago

Actually Charisma and the reputation value attached to it already has negative consequences.

For example, try convincing Monty and Xzar to travel to the friendly arm inn first.

CutlassJack

I don't think it needs to be a penalty so much as a roleplay 'feature.' For example, Fallout (and Arcanum) actually changed the way your character spoke if their int was too low. That turned a penalty into replay value.

erronius

Three points. First, The whole stat system of AD&D is extremely antiquated. I guess it seemed like a good idea at the time. If you look at the 3rd edition rules (for example in IWD2) the stats are way better. Int, Cha, and Wis all give bonus spells to casters and their spells are harder to resist. Wis, Con, and Dex all give saving throw bonuses/penalties if they are low. The one stat you can safely pull points out of without penalty is Int, but in general you have to make a lot more tough choices about your stats, it's not just "Max prime requisite and 18 str 18 dex 18 con". Also there are no artificial stat requirements. For example, Paladins in AD&D rules, the system BG2 uses, have to have 17 Charisma. But they receive no benefit from the stat. Raising it to 18 or above does nothing other than the usual benefits of Cha.

Second, the stat system was designed for use with Dungeons and Dragons, where you have a human "Dungeon Master" who is running the game - basically performing the role of computer and storyteller. It is left to the DM to decide if your character's Intelligence of 3 is going to affect how things work out. So it makes sense when you translate to a computer game, some of the nuance is lost.

Lastly, a lot of what you are talking about sits in the weird gap between character knowledge + abilities and player knowledge. As a player (especially if you've played through the game before) you have a lot of knowledge that your characters don't have. Isn't that "unrealistic"? Yes, of course it is. It's a game, not a realism engine. If you decide your main character's Wisdom score of 4 makes him act stupidly, you can roleplay that, even in a computer game, as CutlassJack said.

TheArtisan

Honestly? I'd be cool with it but I know a lot of people won't. Like it or not, min-maxing and dump stats have become a way to play for some. There will be people who complain if they get punished for doing what they do, and it'd be pretty justified. Leave it as it is.

Caradoc

The system is sort of outdated and would require a complete redesign. There are so many dump stats in baldur's gates. Clever modder could try to fix this some way.

Like you said the most problematic stats are intelligence and wisdom as most classes don't really beneffit from them. Even a mage could easily have an int score as low as 9 and still manage quite well. Intelligence boosting potions aren't that hard to come by really. Just like wisdom is important for clerics, but most classes can just dump it as low as they desire.

I think it would be intresting if a character with low int (3-5) would have trouble understanding spoken text. All the books would be naturally beyond his understanding.

Like this:

int 3-5 = Can't read anything, doesn't understand complex sentences. Such character would also lack the knowledge how to use metal armor and most advanced weapons. I mean using long bow or a longsword requires some intelligence. You can't just bash people wildly with them. Only primitive weapons like spears, clubs, axes would be allowed.

Int 6-8 = Understands most basic texts, Has no trouble following a conversation, but may have trouble expressing himself properly. Complex topics and concepts are still confusing. Knows how to use most armors and weapons properly. Maybe some finer weapons & armors like Crossbow, katana or elven chain would be still out of his mental reach.

int 9-12 = Normal intelligence. Can read every book in game, has no trouble following a conversation, has the proper mental capacity to use every kind of equipment, even magical scrolls and wands. Can't read magical tomes though. Maybe it would require a higher intelligence like 13 or something.

shaldon

It would be great to penalise low 'mental' scores. Far too much work to ever be implemented however. For new games there's no excuse not to do it.

matrice

deltago said:

Actually Charisma and the reputation value attached to it already has negative consequences.

For example, try convincing Monty and Xzar to travel to the friendly arm inn first.

make imoen speak to them.
Charisma is totally useles in bg2, and in bg1 you just have to stick to imoen (or stick to her Until you take an other high charisma npc, and there's plenty of them in bg1

longjo83

There are thousands of ways to cheat in BG, and changing your roll is probably the first. Moving your stats around can be a slight adjustment or a huge problem like you mentioned above. I wish you could roll then choose your class, since you might realistically be drawn to your strengths. If you go the role playing route you might want to limit any stat changes using your cutoffs as a guideline- like having a sub 6 intelligence being okay for a half-orc, but not your paladin who needs to read scrolls. This will force you to limit your own allocations and take a little from you dex or con to keep your int tolerable.

It still doesn't make metagaming any less cheating. If you choose dex as a dump stat knowing you'll get the bracers of dexterity, that's kinda cheating too.

I don't get that detailed honestly. As long as I have 18 strength I won't need 40 trips to carry wyvern heads to the temple.

kellcl

I usually try not to go below 10 for traditional dump stats, for example, WIS and INT for fighter-type charnames for purely roleplay reasons.

rapsam2003

magisensei said:

For example, if you are a warrior and you scored somewhere in the mid-80s with stats and decided to minimize your INT to 3 because you can - your fighter would essentially be as dumb as brick maybe more so. Doesn't this minimum stat deserve to be penalized in the game.

I liked how the game Arcanum handled this best. If your INT was below 9 (only possible with Half-Ogre), then everyone would speak to you as if you were the dumbest person on earth. One of the main "companions" (he's actually not a companion in the sense of combat; he just follows you from town to town) starts getting pissed as hell the first time he meets you, because he can't possibly stand how dumb you are. And you have no ability to discuss things with people: your options are "don't smash" and "smash".