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Writing a Better Mizhena

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  • KcoQuidamKcoQuidam Member Posts: 181
    I still have problem with the fact Mizhena must hide her transidentity. Really i love the current dialogue. Mostly because this dialogue are saying "oh yeah it's no big deal" and maybe more because the current is not about her identity, but about her name, and as a side effect we learn about her story, but it's not the focus.


    There two "view" about this character is guess. And that a "political" or more a "choice" of writting in all case. Do we want this character being write the way trans people can empathise with her and saying "yes we choose that in our world that trans character doesn't have to fear about comming out, because it's not a big deal after all" (wich is great). Or as a character write to explain to no-trans people what mean being "trans" wich ... i'm very tired to read. That's more or less the only kind of story that allowed to trans character: hide your story and only show up after a long quest as a reward for the "good" person.


    Dont get it bad, i understand your proposal, and it may sound very good i guess (it's a good start written), but as a trans person i'm very very tired of fictional worlds where trans people have to fear or being cautious about "coming out". Does this sentence have any sense in the Realms in fact ? A lot of character have changed their gender and/or their body. Sound more for me like we can think there already a lot of trans character and that just the dialogue never talk about that. But for me, and untill there a thing that prove the otherwise we can assume most of the NPCs or characters in the game can be transgender. The fact is just, in this case, her name's story make the thing "canonical" for everyone.

    I love the fact Mizhena can just tell her name's story and ... no more. Because, why it need to be a big deal ? In our real world it is but in the Realms it really doesn't make any sense. (Or it can, in some society like the drow society because it's already a very sexist one).


    My proposal is:

    - Do not change her current writting.
    - Add maybe some option dialog (il really want a "Oh i see, it's just like me" option, even with a evil character). I'm not opposed to rejection option dialogue, but in a world like the Realms it sound to me very out of character, and maybe the party can react with some sentence like "It's really strange that you react that way you know" (even evil character, evil character can be trans, transness aren't reserved to good person).
    - Add one side quest or more that not about her transidentity. That can be about language or cleric whatever. What matter is that she was not write and define only by her transness.

    It's a proposal for the "we write this character to talk to trans people, and not about trans people". It's a total writing choice. I can like another (if it's not about another story of rejection and pain, i'm tired of story about rejection and pain).

    (Sorry, english still not my mother tongue and i'm still pretty bad at translation. I try to make this post as polite as possible but i dont really can evaluate the weight of my words. I don't want hurting anybody fellings, hoping this will not be the case)
  • GrimLefourbeGrimLefourbe Member Posts: 637
    Is it me or there's actually some content related to her where we witness her character at work and all? ( I just had an exchange with her where we threatened each other until she said I was trustworthy )

    Seems like she's already a developped character to me relatively to other characters in the game.
  • PurudayaPurudaya Member Posts: 816

    Is it me or there's actually some content related to her where we witness her character at work and all? ( I just had an exchange with her where we threatened each other until she said I was trustworthy )

    Seems like she's already a developped character to me relatively to other characters in the game.

    I absolutely agree. Most characters in the game have only a handful of lines and often blurt out their life stories to you upon meeting, but in this case it became problematic for a variety of reasons – some legitimate, most not.

    She doesn't need to be fleshed out imho, but since she's going to be I want to see new content that caters to trans players and not to those who protested the inclusion.

    As for seeing her at work, I don't know. Due to the limitations of the engine, most NPCs just stand around.
  • prem0nitionprem0nition Member Posts: 65
    Hi @KcoQuidam, first of all, please don't worry about your English. You are understandable, and very polite. :)

    I agree completely with you about the Realms. In a world with magic, Dragons, Half-Elves, Half-Orcs and Dragonborn (depending on edition), Transgenderism really wouldn't be a big issue. Saying that however, there are things in my life that I wouldn't share with a complete stranger even if asked, while I probably would do so after a while, once I got to know them and it came up in conversation. I'm not an expert in anything, I'm certainly not transgendered, I'm just your typical straight white male, so I can't and wont speak for anyone, but from my own viewpoint being transgendered would count as one of those things I wouldn't share. Even in the context of a world like the Realms where Transgenderism isn't a whole "OMG PANIC!!! RUN AWAY!!!" deal that the idiots turn it into on this one, there are just things you keep private. That's not really hiding it, just keeping it personal. But as I say, that is purely my own viewpoint, and it's very possible for it to be a wrong one. :)

    There was very much a reason why I stopped writing my dialogue example where I did. That is because I have absolutely no experience on how such a conversation would go at that point, and I have no idea at all what the transgendered community would want out of a character. I am perfectly happy to let people who do have the experience, and do know what is needed to make the character not only speak about Transgenderism, but speak to Transgendered people too.

    Regarding your proposals, completely agree with having a "me too" option. That would be fantastic in my opinion. I'd also love to see reactions from your companions were you to reject Mizhena.

    One of the very reasons why I felt Mizhena was badly written to begin with was because she felt to me like a one note character, that her transgenderness was all she really had. It is why in my example dialogue I pushed the love of languages, and planted the seed of possible side quests with CHARNAME finding documents for her to translate. The idea I had in my head while writing it was of a scavenger hunt. CHARNAME brings back a document to Mizhena, she translates it, CHARNAME goes to location and finds some minor magical item (a wand or potion or such like) and a new note to be translated, which takes them to a different location... on and on until with Mizhena's help CHARNAME comes across a magic weapon. This causes you to interact with her more, forge the bond I mentioned in my last post, and of course, round out the character to be much more than her Transgender status. It is something that would please me greatly.

    Thank you for posting your point of view, I appreciate the feedback. Lets hope that the community and Beamdog can put our collective heads together and build a character that as many people as possible can, if not like, at least appreciate for being well written and thought out. :)
  • laeknirlaeknir Member Posts: 58
    edited April 2016
    I think the real difficulty is that CHARNAME needs to be able to have a much wider range of responses to Mizhena. Just as you can turn down Nalia rudely in BG2 when she begs for help (with the poor and with retaking her keep), a range of good to evil responses with Mizhena should be there. Both are social justice issues, and there are tons of other social issues in the BG1 and BG2 games. Tolerance - and true acceptance - will take time in society, you can't "teach" or "preach" values of any kind in a game, not effectively.

    That said, being able to kill Mizhena is flat-out wrong, and it's been mentioned that's a bug. It's wrong because Mizhena is part of your allied force. If you retain the ability to kill her and do so, then you should lose a ton of rep and your allies should all attack you.

    Similarly, if you're simply rude and nasty to her, Mizhena should stop offering clerical services to you. Or the prices should increase dramatically.

    The issue isn't that Mizhena is there. The issue is that there's only one way to interact with her (positively) and if you are roleplaying a chaotic evil CHARNAME or just want to be a royal jerk... you can't. Because even a CE berserker is limited to complimenting her, that means right now she's objectively not "normal" like other NPCs.

    Give the jerks the ability to be jerks in the game, just like with other NPCs and questlines. No preaching, just consequences, like real life. Look at all the money and business North Carolina is losing now. Consequences.
  • GrimLefourbeGrimLefourbe Member Posts: 637
    It's not only Mizhena though, everyone wants something different out of a roleplaying game and we can't have an answer for every type of player, sometimes there will be no answer that suits your needs and that's ok, it's inevitable in a roleplaying game that at some point you won't have the option you want as a dialog.

    Mizhena already has a lot of content I think and you need to ask more about her life story 2 times before she gives it to you, that's more than many other npcs.

    Many npcs are only here for one quest, I think Mizhena is part of 2 quests, that's alright to me.
  • PurudayaPurudaya Member Posts: 816
    The thing is, there are all kinds of dialogues in the series that don't give you the option of being a jerk - I'm doing my first evil runthrough right now and have had to be polite or neutral to an awful lot of NPCs in BG1. I'm ok with there being a "don't have time to talk to you" dismissive option, but I don't understand why it's so important to people given that there are already so many NPCs that only have positive or neutral responses.

    I also wouldn't want to see the trans content buried in dialogue options as some have suggested in other threads. This is a game that frequently boils the important points about its characters down to a line or two, so I don't see why Mizhena shouldn't be forthcoming about her transness if its an important part of her character. Then again, I'm not trans - hence the thread :smile:

  • KcoQuidamKcoQuidam Member Posts: 181
    Thank for you reply @prem0nition. Happy that i have made no mistake.

    You're not totally wrong saying it's a personnal thing in fact. And there a lot of way to deal with it. Even in real life, some trans people talk very easy on that, other no. There not an only true and real way in fact.

    I'm not against your proposal, really. It's good. It's hard just to found a proposal that are "totally" good. Because there a lot of way to deal with this subject and just on character cannot be use to display even a small part of this huge variety.

    Oh i think. Maybe if we just don't put the "sorry i dont wanna talk about that now it's a personnal thing" at the first dialogue but still put her name's story after some quest it will be an idea. She dont talk at first of her transidentity but she dont say that the subject is hard to her to say. Players can then choose their own interpretation : does she doesn't talk at first because the subject was complex ? or just because there no reason for her to talk untill now. Both are great and credible for a lot of reason and leave it to the player interpretation here can be maybe the greatest thing to do.

    (If other trans people have a remark on this idea, i dont wanna talk for all the trans people)


    (For the other discuss) I'm currently playing BG1 and ... there a LOT of time we can being rude or crual with some NPC. Not that i'm against an evil line ... but even as an evil character i prefer being rude with Mizhena in way that dont imply i'm rude BECAUSE of her transidentity. Mostly because it will say we cant be trans and evil. That's not cool.
  • PurudayaPurudaya Member Posts: 816
    KcoQuidam said:



    (For the other discuss) I'm currently playing BG1 and ... there a LOT of time we can being rude or crual with some NPC. Not that i'm against an evil line ... but even as an evil character i prefer being rude with Mizhena in way that dont imply i'm rude BECAUSE of her transidentity. Mostly because it will say we cant be trans and evil. That's not cool.

    This is my main concern as well, which is why I tend to lean more toward "dismissive" than mean for a non-positive response. To be frank, I don't really want a player to have a line that could be used for anti-trans roleplaying (again, not saying anyone here is requesting this), even if the line isn't intended to be. If Mizhena's dialogue absolutely has to include a "mean" option, that standard should apply to every NPC...which it doesn't.

    You made a good point at the top of your post also - part of the reason the Mizhena revision probably won't be able to please everybody is because she's only one character and there is no one trans experience. Your solution to that is a good idea which might also depend on how trans people are treated in the Forgotten Realms lore-wise, which we don't yet know.
  • RoseweaveRoseweave Member Posts: 101
    edited April 2016
    laeknir said:

    I think the real difficulty is that CHARNAME needs to be able to have a much wider range of responses to Mizhena. Just as you can turn down Nalia rudely in BG2 when she begs for help (with the poor and with retaking her keep), a range of good to evil responses with Mizhena should be there. Both are social justice issues, and there are tons of other social issues in the BG1 and BG2 games. Tolerance - and true acceptance - will take time in society, you can't "teach" or "preach" values of any kind in a game, not effectively.

    That said, being able to kill Mizhena is flat-out wrong, and it's been mentioned that's a bug. It's wrong because Mizhena is part of your allied force. If you retain the ability to kill her and do so, then you should lose a ton of rep and your allies should all attack you.

    Similarly, if you're simply rude and nasty to her, Mizhena should stop offering clerical services to you. Or the prices should increase dramatically.

    The issue isn't that Mizhena is there. The issue is that there's only one way to interact with her (positively) and if you are roleplaying a chaotic evil CHARNAME or just want to be a royal jerk... you can't. Because even a CE berserker is limited to complimenting her, that means right now she's objectively not "normal" like other NPCs.

    Give the jerks the ability to be jerks in the game, just like with other NPCs and questlines. No preaching, just consequences, like real life. Look at all the money and business North Carolina is losing now. Consequences.

    Like if you're not trans I'm really really uncomfortable with this post. We've already established you can't be a jerk to every NPC in the game. The fact that people specifically want the negative side of this "social issue" in the game while some people - or often the same person - are complaining about bringing in real life issues for me in the first place suggests to me what it's really about. It's easy to say things take time when you're not the one on the receiving ends of bathroom bills and violent cops.

    I think that the character needs to be handled by someone who knows how to approach these sensibly and having a "design by comittee" with gamergate and a bunch of random cis people and non-writers involved is really really silly and frankly offensive.
  • RoseweaveRoseweave Member Posts: 101
    I find it really bemusing too that the same sort of people that consider her a one note character solely falling back on her transness want her to have a quest relating to her transness.

    Like... I'd be fine with a trans related quest as long as people concede it's okay for some trans people to be perfectly happy to be open or consider being trans a big part of their identity. I really dislike this sort of reverse identity politics that insists on people their marginalised identity should take up as little space as possible otherwise they're somehow being inauthentic as human beings. That really rubs me the wrong way.
  • GenderNihilismGirdleGenderNihilismGirdle Member Posts: 1,353
    @Roseweave

    What people playing the game will or will not concede is out of Beamdog's hands, whether there is a quest related to transition/transness or not! That's an important thing to keep in mind here, I feel. It's also worth keeping in mind that at no point has Beamdog said they are going to "design by committee" with gamergate and random cis people and in fact the only branch I saw extended was a comment by @David_Gaider asking trans people to PM him if they have suggestions (without guaranteeing anything would get in, which makes sense, they're just trying to get some perspective). That's extremely heartening to me, honestly! I don't think we need to worry about the writers messing this up at this point if those are any indicators, and I've seen zero indicators that they give the time of day to transphobic suggestions, or really any fan suggestions outside of that one lifeline they extended to trans folks on this forum so they wouldn't have to out themselves if they didn't want to.

    So all that in mind, I think I trust them to do whatever solution they can to improve the writing, whether it is or isn't a quest related to transition/transness! I feel like I trust them not to "fall back on transness" whatever path they choose, and I'd trust them to handle a transition-related quest that is steeped in Forgotten Realms flavour if they so choose. I don't think we as trans people need to be panicking at this point, especially with regard to the involvement of transphobic GG folks in the writing process even idea-wise.
  • cdxcdx Member Posts: 94
    I like the idea of her having tried in the past the Girdle of Masculinity/Fenininity with no physical results whatsoever. At that point she still had male body but when she tried the belt on, it made her the reverse of her true gender - the reverse of female, so male body again.
  • BelleSorciereBelleSorciere Member Posts: 2,108
    I like the idea of not focusing on her transition or setting up "gotchas" to sabotage her transition. I like the idea of her transition being a fact of her past and not necessarily a current matter. I also like the idea of her being happy and well-adjusted, not being tragic in any way. I think we've all seen more than our fair share of tragic trans characters in media.
  • Diogenes42Diogenes42 Member Posts: 597
    Hello friends. Something that struck me, I don't know if it has been brought up before. As I recall the lovely Branwen was harassed/chased out of her village for being a women who dared to become a priest which was traditionally "men's work."

    Perhaps Mizhena could a kind of Two-Spirit figure in the Native American sense, someone who was born a man but then became a woman could be is interpreted a sign sent by Tempus that the roles of society were shifting. Mizhena could be the symbol for a social revolution, maybe whether she liked it or not?

    If I've said something that is uncool about these issues in any way I sincerely apologise, please let me know.
  • KcoQuidamKcoQuidam Member Posts: 181

    Hello friends. Something that struck me, I don't know if it has been brought up before. As I recall the lovely Branwen was harassed/chased out of her village for being a women who dared to become a priest which was traditionally "men's work."

    Perhaps Mizhena could a kind of Two-Spirit figure in the Native American sense, someone who was born a man but then became a woman could be is interpreted a sign sent by Tempus that the roles of society were shifting. Mizhena could be the symbol for a social revolution, maybe whether she liked it or not?

    If I've said something that is uncool about these issues in any way I sincerely apologise, please let me know.

    That not uncool. In fact it can be a good idea (i dont really know, this is a point that talk about transidentity and about Native American history, i'm not Native American). If her story focus on more her victory than pain and rejection it can be cool. I'm also like the idea of "i'm a trans person and it's not a problem for me, but i'm sometime confortable and sometime not confortable about the fact my existence are often see as a political statement. I just exist no more, no less" (because, it more or less fit my how experience i think).

    I, personnaly, prefer thinking about not focus on her transness, just because a lot of thing we talk. But i'm not against it. I think it's another stone for the "one character isn't enought if we want develop the story of transidentity in the all Realms".

    (Totally unrelated, i replay BG1 and i have re-read the Adoy dialogue line about how he discover the "pleasure of being a women" cause of his wild magic. Funny because it's a way more "out of context" line than all the Mizhena dialogue :')...)
  • BelleSorciereBelleSorciere Member Posts: 2,108
    edited April 2016

    Hello friends. Something that struck me, I don't know if it has been brought up before. As I recall the lovely Branwen was harassed/chased out of her village for being a women who dared to become a priest which was traditionally "men's work."

    Perhaps Mizhena could a kind of Two-Spirit figure in the Native American sense, someone who was born a man but then became a woman could be is interpreted a sign sent by Tempus that the roles of society were shifting. Mizhena could be the symbol for a social revolution, maybe whether she liked it or not?

    If I've said something that is uncool about these issues in any way I sincerely apologise, please let me know.

    I don't know about you but the thought of giving birth to a man or a woman fills me with terror. Giving birth to babies works so much better for all involved.

    As far as two-spirits go, that's a specifically Native American thing and I wouldn't appropriate it into the game like this. I think it's also better to represent transgender characters as having always been the gender they say they are, rather than saying they were one gender and became another later.
  • MaximvsMaximvs Member Posts: 94
    The problem with white straight males is that seeing gay guys and transgender people provokes in us an aversion. The social justice warriors assumes this aversion was taught through hatred, when it fact it's just biological. I don't hate LGBT people at all, all I ask is for one second of mental preparation before I see a gay guy couple kissing.

    Every straight guy is like that, even those part of the Social Justice Warrior movement, they just don't admit it for fear of persecution by said SJW around them. When TV and games flashes us gay guys and transgender people, tell me, how many transgender people are satisfied, and how many straight white guys are psychologically attacked just so a very very small, ultra minority is "satisfied" to see us recoil in horror? The ratio makes it not worth it to my eyes, but hey, "that s just my opinion man".
  • KcoQuidamKcoQuidam Member Posts: 181
    Just to thank @GenderNihilismGirdle for this very long post. I dont know a lot of thing about the view on gender in other cultures. It was a very interesting reading.

    It's true that the Realms seeings about gender issues should be very more diverse. Even without talking about magic but just because there a lot of different cultures with very differents histories. And because transidentity (at least in my experience) are very linked to the binary - (mostly occidental ?) - view their a lot of posibility here.

    (I think bringing this subjects in the Realms will be great. Great for the inclusion of the people. Great for the deep of the stories. Great for the lore. Sorry i'm a bit hyped by having this kind of conversation on the official forum of one of my favorites licence)
  • RoseweaveRoseweave Member Posts: 101

    Hello friends. Something that struck me, I don't know if it has been brought up before. As I recall the lovely Branwen was harassed/chased out of her village for being a women who dared to become a priest which was traditionally "men's work."

    Perhaps Mizhena could a kind of Two-Spirit figure in the Native American sense, someone who was born a man but then became a woman could be is interpreted a sign sent by Tempus that the roles of society were shifting. Mizhena could be the symbol for a social revolution, maybe whether she liked it or not?

    If I've said something that is uncool about these issues in any way I sincerely apologise, please let me know.

    Be careful with Native American cultural references. They're quite protective of the "two spirit" distinction since it's become so appropriated in recent years.

    I have one character - an engineer type - that's from a fantasy area that's styled a little after Appalachian culture and "mixed" white, black, native, romani communities(most of my characters are mixed so it goes with the theme). The character is non-binary Irish/Black/Native. The culture is sort of it's own thing, a melting pot of sorts so the ties to any particular Native culture aren't apparent, but some of them do still have a good grasp on their heritage. I'm kind of looking into how to handle that, I think it'll be something that'll be touched upon but not delved into too much - it'll be an important part of their character that they're trans and have native heritage, and they identify with the concept of two-spirit to some degree, but living in a culture that's quite different to that third of their descent they might feel less directly connected.
  • RoseweaveRoseweave Member Posts: 101

    @Roseweave

    What people playing the game will or will not concede is out of Beamdog's hands, whether there is a quest related to transition/transness or not! That's an important thing to keep in mind here, I feel. It's also worth keeping in mind that at no point has Beamdog said they are going to "design by committee" with gamergate and random cis people and in fact the only branch I saw extended was a comment by @David_Gaider asking trans people to PM him if they have suggestions (without guaranteeing anything would get in, which makes sense, they're just trying to get some perspective). That's extremely heartening to me, honestly! I don't think we need to worry about the writers messing this up at this point if those are any indicators, and I've seen zero indicators that they give the time of day to transphobic suggestions, or really any fan suggestions outside of that one lifeline they extended to trans folks on this forum so they wouldn't have to out themselves if they didn't want to.

    So all that in mind, I think I trust them to do whatever solution they can to improve the writing, whether it is or isn't a quest related to transition/transness! I feel like I trust them not to "fall back on transness" whatever path they choose, and I'd trust them to handle a transition-related quest that is steeped in Forgotten Realms flavour if they so choose. I don't think we as trans people need to be panicking at this point, especially with regard to the involvement of transphobic GG folks in the writing process even idea-wise.

    I PM'd David but didn't get a reply. I would be really interested in being a full on consultant for this as I care a lot about diversity and would sink a lot of time into it.

    I don't like the idea personally of trans people sending in suggestions which will then likely be ignored. With stuff like that you end up with a horrible chimera quite often. If you're not confident about writing such a thing you need some sort of consultant. Which doesn't have to be a big official position even, but a friend or friend or a friend or enthusiastic fan who's willing to help people go through dialogue and interactions to make sure nothing's too awkward. Obv. you can't have have someone for ALL aspects of "diverse" characters and experiences but if you're specifically committing you absolutely should I think, especially for something like a trans character that represents a group that has almost no control over it's own narrative in the media.
  • Diogenes42Diogenes42 Member Posts: 597

    Hello friends. Something that struck me, I don't know if it has been brought up before. As I recall the lovely Branwen was harassed/chased out of her village for being a women who dared to become a priest which was traditionally "men's work."

    Perhaps Mizhena could a kind of Two-Spirit figure in the Native American sense, someone who was born a man but then became a woman could be is interpreted a sign sent by Tempus that the roles of society were shifting. Mizhena could be the symbol for a social revolution, maybe whether she liked it or not?

    If I've said something that is uncool about these issues in any way I sincerely apologise, please let me know.

    I don't know about you but the thought of giving birth to a man or a woman fills me with terror. Giving birth to babies works so much better for all involved.

    As far as two-spirits go, that's a specifically Native American thing and I wouldn't appropriate it into the game like this. I think it's also better to represent transgender characters as having always been the gender they say they are, rather than saying they were one gender and became another later.
    I think @Diogenes42 was more making a comparison than suggesting cultural appropriation, as evidenced by the Realms-specific (and character-specific) follow-up to the comparison, but I agree that it's important to highlight not to try and appropriate culturally specific terms and concepts and thanks for doing so!

    There are actually many cultures around the world, some of them long since vanished and many still around us today, that have sacred roles given to people who are recognized as neither male nor female that are exclusive to people who have those roles. There are also quite a few cultures who, when viewed through the dominant lens of the time, were (and are, in way too many contemporary examples) painted with a single brush that we now understand had/have a great deal of difference between them. Two-Spirit notions are among those contemporary examples where that term is a blanket term of diverse inclusivity within indigenous communities but outside of them people often think of it as one concept.

    For a historical example of this, writers and officials in Imperial Rome called attention to several cultures they encountered during their military expansions with a "eunuch" priest class because that was how they saw those sacred figures, but in fact the ways those people were identified within their own culture was very likely not the same as other cultures labeled with the same brush, and certainly none of them would have fit comfortably into the Roman signifier of "eunuch", and interestingly enough one of those was the ancient Syrian culture from which the Roman Emperor Elagabalus's mother came from, and Elagabalus apparently kept both male and female lovers, enjoyed not only watching plays but putting on performances starring themself, and it's unclear what their gender identity would have been at the time but today it seems as though we could say they were some kind of transgender individual. Over the course of their reign they called experts of all kinds to court and asked them if there was a procedure by which they could become a woman. I use they here just because it seems as though they desired to become a woman but never found anyone who could do what they wished to their satisfaction on the one hand, but on the other it may have been an effort to become a more perfect fusion of Roman and Syrian ideas about what that role in the priesthood entailed, since that was a big focus of their reign (the fusing of their native Syrian paganism and Roman paganism). Elagabalus was later killed by their own bodyguards, only 18 years old!

    So it's interesting, someone came from a cultural periphery of the Empire where the Empire considered some members of the priesthood to be "eunuchs" but the way that Emperor expressed it to others was a desire to become a woman (reportedly, again even this might be a distortion of what those requests were based on the cultural prejudices of those hearing it since only Romans wrote of it, for all we know what was being requested was a fusion of man and woman and it was just too out there for a Roman audience to comprehend without slotting it into one or the other).

    So from ancient times right up to the present, on nearly every continent, there have been traditions of sex/gender which escape the Christian European binary and its descendants that we're used to in Europe and settler-colonial occupations like America, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc that were spread around the world putting other concepts under violent erasure in the name of the imperial and colonial ambitions of European nation-states for centuries. I think it's worthwhile to explore this not having happened in the Forgotten Realms to open up a more diverse playing field of "third genders" (which becomes kind of a weird term when there are dozens and dozens of #3s, especially in cultures where there are more than one "third" gender, but it's an easy way to conceptualize it if you're only used to normalized binary notions). I think the Realms have plenty of room for interesting concepts tied to regional cultures or particular deities, Corellon being one that's been core since 1st ed in a manner of speaking but even outside of Elven cultures/faiths I'm sure we'd find there's quite a few, and they're all worth exploring and expanding on for sure! The diversity which has existed and continues to exist in the real world is a good model for that diversity but the Realms should have its own flavour if you ask me, not something tied to any particular Earth culture (maybe outside the one culture literally from Earth lmao)
    An excellent post friend and I hope everyone reads it because it has some fascinating items of historical interest.

    I was indeed making a comparison, using an example of a blessed figure in a culture rather than a reviled one and you went and knocked it out of the park. Although DnD and fantasy in general has never been afraid of snatching up things it finds interesting about different cultures and cramming them into their own universe. As long as these things are respectful and done well or changed just enough then I think that using them is ok. I may not be qualified to make such a judgement though, since I tout myself as a kosmopolitês I don't feel the personal connection to any one culture that so many share.

    Furthermore, I am of the opinion that Carthage should be destroyed.
  • GenderNihilismGirdleGenderNihilismGirdle Member Posts: 1,353
    Roseweave said:

    @Roseweave

    What people playing the game will or will not concede is out of Beamdog's hands, whether there is a quest related to transition/transness or not! That's an important thing to keep in mind here, I feel. It's also worth keeping in mind that at no point has Beamdog said they are going to "design by committee" with gamergate and random cis people and in fact the only branch I saw extended was a comment by @David_Gaider asking trans people to PM him if they have suggestions (without guaranteeing anything would get in, which makes sense, they're just trying to get some perspective). That's extremely heartening to me, honestly! I don't think we need to worry about the writers messing this up at this point if those are any indicators, and I've seen zero indicators that they give the time of day to transphobic suggestions, or really any fan suggestions outside of that one lifeline they extended to trans folks on this forum so they wouldn't have to out themselves if they didn't want to.

    So all that in mind, I think I trust them to do whatever solution they can to improve the writing, whether it is or isn't a quest related to transition/transness! I feel like I trust them not to "fall back on transness" whatever path they choose, and I'd trust them to handle a transition-related quest that is steeped in Forgotten Realms flavour if they so choose. I don't think we as trans people need to be panicking at this point, especially with regard to the involvement of transphobic GG folks in the writing process even idea-wise.

    I PM'd David but didn't get a reply. I would be really interested in being a full on consultant for this as I care a lot about diversity and would sink a lot of time into it.

    I don't like the idea personally of trans people sending in suggestions which will then likely be ignored. With stuff like that you end up with a horrible chimera quite often. If you're not confident about writing such a thing you need some sort of consultant. Which doesn't have to be a big official position even, but a friend or friend or a friend or enthusiastic fan who's willing to help people go through dialogue and interactions to make sure nothing's too awkward. Obv. you can't have have someone for ALL aspects of "diverse" characters and experiences but if you're specifically committing you absolutely should I think, especially for something like a trans character that represents a group that has almost no control over it's own narrative in the media.
    If you don't like the idea that suggestions will be ignored, don't have that idea! That was the general thrust of my reply to you there above, and I still feel that way.

    To reiterate and clarify, I don't get the feeling any trans people sending messages to David are going to be ignored since he specifically requested those submissions! I haven't been replied back to by him either, but the request for submissions of suggestions and thoughts seemed more of an info-gathering thing than a consulting process. I can't recall what thread he made the post in off the top of my head or I'd quote it, but be basically says there's no guarantee anything gets in but he wants to hear what we have to say, and that's one more avenue of input than most companies offer trans folks re: their representation and I really appreciate it for what it is! I think conflating the approach of GG folks who ignore trans perspectives and Beamdog's substantially more inclusive approach isn't helpful here, given that. Again, I am of the opinion that no such horrible chimera of wrong-head views is going to occur here since they've given no indication that they're doing any kind of "design by committee with gg trolls" process.

    I'm willing to bet they will tap someone (or multiple someones) to consult with who is trans (if they haven't already done this) to run stuff by before they put it in an update, test it and send that update along to us, but they're not obligated to tell us who they're consulting with during the writing process. I think the anxiety that comes through in these posts of yours is misplaced, since they may just a) not have picked you in particular to consult with or b) may not be quite at the consulting stage just yet.

    While I totally get parts of your anxiety as a trans person used to seeing dehumanizing portrayals in the media, I think other pieces of your anxiety are misplaced here. They may not say word one to the gaming public about who is involved in the writing/editing/proofing process even after the update goes live, and that's perfectly normal in the industry so I wouldn't panic about them not announcing anything on that front. Beamdog's pre-existing focus on positive LGBT inclusivity (as in pre-existing the launch of SoD and subsequent controversy, rather than being triggered by it) is more than enough of a signal to me that they'll be listening in the right way to trans voices that have made themselves heard here and elsewhere. To be honest, I think Mizhena was basically fine as-is, but the decision to expand on her a bit is a welcome one for me nonetheless.
  • GenderNihilismGirdleGenderNihilismGirdle Member Posts: 1,353

    An excellent post friend and I hope everyone reads it because it has some fascinating items of historical interest.

    I was indeed making a comparison, using an example of a blessed figure in a culture rather than a reviled one and you went and knocked it out of the park. Although DnD and fantasy in general has never been afraid of snatching up things it finds interesting about different cultures and cramming them into their own universe. As long as these things are respectful and done well or changed just enough then I think that using them is ok. I may not be qualified to make such a judgement though, since I tout myself as a kosmopolitês I don't feel the personal connection to any one culture that so many share.

    Furthermore, I am of the opinion that Carthage should be destroyed.

    I am of the opinion that Carthage and Rome both have the potential to be fluid gates through which the cosmos can flow and congeal for a time in the shape of a City For All, and that overtures of peace and friendship should be made in the spirit of a camaraderie that both includes the unique character of each city and transcends the form which the city takes in an all-encompassing embrace.

    Plus Cato tripped me in the Senate one time and I hit my head on the floor and he scurried away like he didn't mean for it to go that far but didn't want to face responsibility for his actions, so now I periodically pay his housekeepers to sabotage his clasp so his toga falls down during his wild gesticulations he makes during speeches in support of his war measures.
  • SirdentSirdent Member Posts: 45
    I dont remember, maybe partially because when the original two games came out there wasnt as much on the internet back then but did the girdle of masculinity/femininity or the Edwina storyline get this much attention? I know its different than this situation but its not like gender issues werent touched upon in small amounts previously. I think tying her more into the backstory (maybe including those other two instances) would be helpful. I discussed this a bit more on the other forum post about her but I think there definitely is room for improvement with the character from multiple angles.
  • OzwartOzwart Member Posts: 4
    Really dont understand how people can say that character is fine, she is nothing than some kind of : i will teach you what trans are.....which is useless in the sword and spell adventure. They coud have done something great with the character like being a party member with a romance and you discover her nature in the romance, you have the occasion the react on it and maybe it affect if she stay or leave you. Dont any of you think this could have been a great way to present it while at the same time having fun discovering it and playing with the character? Sorry but just talking with generic non playable character on the sidewalk isnt my idea of fun in bg.
  • KcoQuidamKcoQuidam Member Posts: 181
    I totaly understand the anxiety of @Roseweave. And for being totaly honest I don't think we all end up being happy with the outcome on how Mizhena will be rework or even just expand. Even with the most full good listening, just because of what we have sayed some several times: one character cannot really goodly explore all what can and must be explore on this subject.

    But just given the Amber Scott older writing on trans people (not perfect, but in my eye very respectfull, and in some way improving with time) the fact she dont give up or regret Mizhena (And her public statement are really a courageous thing in my opinion. I dunno if i would have done the same thing), the fact the Beamdog team stand on this, the fact they ask for feedback from trans people and the fact we can have this all very respectfull discuss here (and that very good thing come out all of this) it's really really a hope thing to me.

    (I also PM David. I think his asking are in one of the very firsts messages on this disscuss)

    Not saying your anxiety is not important or unfounded. I totally get it. But the most we can do for now is discuss and share a lot of positive idea and concern. Hoping the team read here the feedback. (Crossing my finger for it)
  • RoseweaveRoseweave Member Posts: 101
    edited April 2016
    KcoQuidam said:

    I totaly understand the anxiety of @Roseweave. And for being totaly honest I don't think we all end up being happy with the outcome on how Mizhena will be rework or even just expand. Even with the most full good listening, just because of what we have sayed some several times: one character cannot really goodly explore all what can and must be explore on this subject.

    But just given the Amber Scott older writing on trans people (not perfect, but in my eye very respectfull, and in some way improving with time) the fact she dont give up or regret Mizhena (And her public statement are really a courageous thing in my opinion. I dunno if i would have done the same thing), the fact the Beamdog team stand on this, the fact they ask for feedback from trans people and the fact we can have this all very respectfull discuss here (and that very good thing come out all of this) it's really really a hope thing to me.

    (I also PM David. I think his asking are in one of the very firsts messages on this disscuss)

    Not saying your anxiety is not important or unfounded. I totally get it. But the most we can do for now is discuss and share a lot of positive idea and concern. Hoping the team read here the feedback. (Crossing my finger for it)

    I still wish they'd rather just get an actual trans consultant, especially when there are people, not limited to myself, offering up their help and spending probably longer thinking and writing about it than anyone in Beamdog has time to.

    I'd like to do it because I have my finger on the pulse for the most part in terms of the current trans lexicon, tumblr trans communities etc. but I also know how to present these things in a way that's much more approachable for the average person. I spend a lot of time thinking about how to naturally introduce these things, as I don't like when things stick out too much in the wrong way(which I DON'T think Mizhena does, but anyway).

    I would like at the least if @Amber_Scott and @David_Gaider interacted with us a bit more... IMO looking at it now the most important issue is fixing the bugs. I just got my BG1EE saves working again and don't want more stress on that grounds. But having people to do the homework on trans representation could save them a lot of time if they mean to expand her a lot...

    I'd love the chance to write some dialogue for her directly even >.< I'd do a ton of work just for a quick plug or thanks, or just to know that there's a decent trans character out there for someone who hasn't seen themselves in a positive role before(though I would question how super heroic a cleric of the Neutral GOD OF WAR could be, "positive" can mean complex and intriguing too). Then if there was one or two other people here to run stuff by... you know it'd end up being fairly solid.
  • KcoQuidamKcoQuidam Member Posts: 181
    (I think we all have the dream of writing some lines for her or have a part on her expand but it's a very complex thing cause more of the fact it's a dev work more than a fan work.

    But in fact maybe we can try to work on some transgender characters and maybe some gender questionning quest for mods no ? I dont really know how mods works for BG. I'll give it a look)
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