Writing a Better Mizhena

Purudaya

Although I'm not yet sure how I feel about the precedent Beamdog might be setting, I can definitely celebrate the idea of deeper and more fleshed-out trans inclusion in SoD. I remembered wanting to talk more with Mizhena when I encountered her and now it looks like we'll have a chance to do just that

On that topic, I hope that the devs and writers are planning to actively seek suggestions from trans forum members if they're interested in providing it. There are a few members who are out publicly, but I know of some that are not – if there would be a place for them to leave their feedback and feel safe and anonymous doing so, I think that would be great.

Thanks for making such an outstanding game, can't wait to see what you do next

forumguy5272

Mizhena is *fine*. If she had said her name was weird because she changed it after switching faiths to indicate her rebirth under a new God, no one would've cared no matter how poorly written or generic the dialogue was. But because she said she did it due to realizing her true gender identity, it's an issue?

Come on. I expect them to change it somehow because of the unnecessary backlash, but good lord people, *all* of this has been unnecessary. I've had gay people IRL tell me they were gay within five minutes of meeting them. Maybe it's "awkward" but if you have real-life human interaction this kind of explanation being so direct (to a *direct question*) is pretty typical. Or do we need a character quest with her before she drops the "bomb"? Doesn't that just make it look even worse - transgender people can't just be upfront about it, they need to worm your way into your life first to be accepted?

The heck is wrong with all of you? The Minsc joke was a bit universe breaking but I don't care if it stays or goes, maybe removing it is Beamdog's way of compromising without having to rewrite a transgender character, but they shouldn't of had to remove the joke and they don't need to rewrite Mizhena. Both are *fine*. People are just looking for reasons to get upset.

Get some exercise, you'll be less bothered by harmless things in video games when you have endorphins pumping through your system.

Purudaya

forumguy5272 said:

Mizhena is *fine*. If she had said her name was weird because she changed it after switching faiths to indicate her rebirth under a new God, no one would've cared no matter how poorly written or generic the dialogue was. But because she said she did it due to realizing her true gender identity, it's an issue?

Come on. I expect them to change it somehow because of the unnecessary backlash, but good lord people, *all* of this has been unnecessary. I've had gay people IRL tell me they were gay within five minutes of meeting them. Maybe it's "awkward" but if you have real-life human interaction this kind of explanation being so direct (to a *direct question*) is pretty typical. Or do we need a character quest with her before she drops the "bomb"? Doesn't that just make it look even worse - transgender people can't just be upfront about it, they need to worm your way into your life first to be accepted?

The heck is wrong with all of you? The Minsc joke was a bit universe breaking but I don't care if it stays or goes, maybe removing it is Beamdog's way of compromising without having to rewrite a transgender character, but they shouldn't of had to remove the joke and they don't need to rewrite Mizhena. Both are *fine*. People are just looking for reasons to get upset.

Get some exercise, you'll be less bothered by harmless things in video games when you have endorphins pumping through your system.

Don't get me wrong, I think Mizhena is fine as she is and don't think she should be changed on principle alone. Now that she is, though, I'm hoping Beamdog makes an effort to reach out for trans feedback in a way that doesn't require trans forum members to out themselves. An announcement on where they can share their ideas or offer their life perspectives anonymously, for example. I can imagine that some trans users wouldn't want to come out on these forums right now but might still want to offer feedback from their considerably informed perspective.

GenderNihilismGirdle

Purudaya said:

I'm hoping Beamdog makes an effort to reach out for trans feedback in a way that doesn't require trans forum members to out themselves. An announcement on where they can share their ideas or offer their life perspectives anonymously, for example. I can imagine that some trans users wouldn't want to come out on these forums right now but might still want to offer feedback from their considerably informed perspective.

Yeah, this is very true. I think the best way to get feedback would be a pipeline that goes direct to Beamdog and bypasses having to out yourself. Even on the friendliest platforms people are not always comfortable doing that, and this forum does not currently have the trans-friendliest atmosphere going on. I outed myself bc I could care less what people on this forum have to say about it, but in particular if there are any long-time forum members who are stealth and passing just fine I'm sure it would be a big detractor from contributing to any kind of feedback like that if they had to put their username to it where other people could see.

Francois

I think it makes sense that she tells her story right away, for a number of reasons
-She is not talking to just anyone but to the Hero of Baldur's Gate. She may be more willing to confide in a well respected savior of the world.
-Since sex-change by magic is fairly well-known in the universe and since there is no strong gender roles, there is probably not much stygma in wanting to have one. So talking about it is probably no big deal in that universe. I'm not sure the real-life experience of trangender people actually translates into the fantasy universe.

Rawgrim

The way she is now she looks like a political commercial. She just walks up to the player and tells him how great it is to be transgendered. And the player only has the option to politely agree. Add an option for evil characters to tell her to "sod off". And then add to her character. Flesh her out plenty. Stuff her in BG2 as a joinable companion too. Her banter with Edwin after his mishap with that Nether-Scroll would be pure gold.

Just my blunt but honest opinion. Don't bite my head off, please.

TheArtisan

People have gone over this before. Rude responses were not ubiquitous in the originals. Why is it suddenly necessary here?

Rawgrim

Artemius_I said:

People have gone over this before. Rude responses were not ubiquitous in the originals. Why is it suddenly necessary here?

Because you can be rude to most people in the game, and you can disagree with most characters in the game. Given that she is a cleric, your evil cleric would be at odds with hers. Lots of reasons why.

I am not saying that there should be a rude answer added simply so I can be rude to a transgendered character. I mostly play good characters so the options fits well for me. But should I play an evil character it would certainly mess with immersion.

Roseweave

Rawgrim said:

Artemius_I said:

People have gone over this before. Rude responses were not ubiquitous in the originals. Why is it suddenly necessary here?

Because you can be rude to most people in the game, and you can disagree with most characters in the game. Given that she is a cleric, your evil cleric would be at odds with hers. Lots of reasons why.

I am not saying that there should be a rude answer added simply so I can be rude to a transgendered character. I mostly play good characters so the options fits well for me. But should I play an evil character it would certainly mess with immersion.

Tempus is a neutral deity.

Rawgrim

Roseweave said:

Rawgrim said:

Artemius_I said:

People have gone over this before. Rude responses were not ubiquitous in the originals. Why is it suddenly necessary here?

Because you can be rude to most people in the game, and you can disagree with most characters in the game. Given that she is a cleric, your evil cleric would be at odds with hers. Lots of reasons why.

I am not saying that there should be a rude answer added simply so I can be rude to a transgendered character. I mostly play good characters so the options fits well for me. But should I play an evil character it would certainly mess with immersion.

Tempus is a neutral deity.

Quite right. And Tempus is still at odds with several of the evil ones. He is even at odds with some of the good ones, actually.

BelleSorciere

One thing that I'd suggest for future characters as I suspect this ship has already sailed for Mizhena, is that finding names that are androgynous or refer to "male and female" at the same time for trans women (Kaoru for example in The Secret World, and as I understand it, Mizhena means "male female" or "female male") is a trope that probably doesn't need to exist. I know my fair share of trans people and binary gendered trans people do not typically pick names like that.

Purudaya

I just did an evil play through and was amazed at how many times I didn't have an evil - or even rude - option. My sociopathic assassin has had to day "good day to you" (or similar) to a LOT of NPCs.

There does not have to be a rude, evil, or dismissive option. If one is included, it should be with significant feedback from actual trans players and NOT because people want an option to reject the identity or premise of the character.

Francois

Simply put, changing sex in that world may be such a no big deal that even the most antagonistic NPC may not have anything special to say about it.

Rawgrim

Purudaya said:

I just did an evil play through and was amazed at how many times I didn't have an evil - or even rude - option. My sociopathic assassin has had to day "good day to you" (or similar) to a LOT of NPCs.

There does not have to be a rude, evil, or dismissive option. If one is included, it should be with significant feedback from actual trans players and NOT because people want an option to reject the identity of premise of the character.

Rejecting the identity of the character is different. But clerics and paladins you can interact with, should have options for the player to be rude.

Trying to twist the issue around and make it seem like people simply want to reject the transgendered character borders on moving the goalposts.

BelleSorciere

But when people first complained about not being able to be rude to Mizhena, they made it clear they were specifically complaining about not being able to reject Mizhena. The goalposts that were moved is the narrative now that says it's just about being rude to clerics, not that it's about being rude to Mizhena. It kind of shows when the only NPC you complain about is Mizhena. I don't remember many options to be rude to clerics in general, so why is it so important with this one particular cleric?

Purudaya

Rawgrim said:

Purudaya said:

I just did an evil play through and was amazed at how many times I didn't have an evil - or even rude - option. My sociopathic assassin has had to day "good day to you" (or similar) to a LOT of NPCs.

There does not have to be a rude, evil, or dismissive option. If one is included, it should be with significant feedback from actual trans players and NOT because people want an option to reject the identity of premise of the character.

Rejecting the identity of the character is different. But clerics and paladins you can interact with, should have options for the player to be rude.

Trying to twist the issue around and make it seem like people simply want to reject the transgendered character borders on moving the goalposts.

I'm not going to turn this into yet another argument thread. These people DO exist and have visited these forums, but I realize it's a moot point: I have faith that Beamdog would never include a response dialogue to even hint at appeasing that mindset.

Rawgrim

BelleSorciere said:

But when people first complained about not being able to be rude to Mizhena, they made it clear they were specifically complaining about not being able to reject Mizhena. The goalposts that were moved is the narrative now that says it's just about being rude to clerics, not that it's about being rude to Mizhena. It kind of shows when the only NPC you complain about is Mizhena. I don't remember many options to be rude to clerics in general, so why is it so important with this one particular cleric?

Because she already looks like a political add. And not being able to be anything but very polite to her, enforces it.

Just what I gathered from looking at the forums etc. I see the issue.

My complaint has always been that the character is a cleric. Rudeness from an evil cleric or a necromancer would make sense. It is by no means a deal-breaker, and it doesn't make the game bad, though. But the character is one that could have been expanded upon a lot.

Purudaya

BelleSorciere said:

But when people first complained about not being able to be rude to Mizhena, they made it clear they were specifically complaining about not being able to reject Mizhena. The goalposts that were moved is the narrative now that says it's just about being rude to clerics, not that it's about being rude to Mizhena. It kind of shows when the only NPC you complain about is Mizhena. I don't remember many options to be rude to clerics in general, so why is it so important with this one particular cleric?

I don't think @Rawgrim wants to have an option to be discriminatory or anything; I think it's more about a perceived inconsistency with other parts of the game where you can be rude, evil, etc (although I firmly believe that inconsistency doesn't exist).

I think a good compromise would be a "don't have time to speak to you" generic dismissal that doesn't reference gender/adjacent issues at all.

Rawgrim

Purudaya said:

BelleSorciere said:

But when people first complained about not being able to be rude to Mizhena, they made it clear they were specifically complaining about not being able to reject Mizhena. The goalposts that were moved is the narrative now that says it's just about being rude to clerics, not that it's about being rude to Mizhena. It kind of shows when the only NPC you complain about is Mizhena. I don't remember many options to be rude to clerics in general, so why is it so important with this one particular cleric?

I don't think @Rawgrim wants to have an option to be discriminatory or anything; I think it's more about a perceived inconsistency with other parts of the game where you can be rude, evil, etc (although I firmly believe that inconsistency doesn't exist).

I think a good compromise would be a "don't have time to speak to you" generic dismissal that doesn't reference gender/adjacent issues at all.

Exactly. Or just "I don't give a damn about your gender".

Purudaya

Rawgrim said:

Purudaya said:

BelleSorciere said:

But when people first complained about not being able to be rude to Mizhena, they made it clear they were specifically complaining about not being able to reject Mizhena. The goalposts that were moved is the narrative now that says it's just about being rude to clerics, not that it's about being rude to Mizhena. It kind of shows when the only NPC you complain about is Mizhena. I don't remember many options to be rude to clerics in general, so why is it so important with this one particular cleric?

I don't think @Rawgrim wants to have an option to be discriminatory or anything; I think it's more about a perceived inconsistency with other parts of the game where you can be rude, evil, etc (although I firmly believe that inconsistency doesn't exist).

I think a good compromise would be a "don't have time to speak to you" generic dismissal that doesn't reference gender/adjacent issues at all.

Exactly. Or just "I don't give a damn about your gender".

Sigh. Just watched my olive branch wilt. Agree to disagree, I guess.

Rawgrim

Purudaya said:

Rawgrim said:

Purudaya said:

BelleSorciere said:

But when people first complained about not being able to be rude to Mizhena, they made it clear they were specifically complaining about not being able to reject Mizhena. The goalposts that were moved is the narrative now that says it's just about being rude to clerics, not that it's about being rude to Mizhena. It kind of shows when the only NPC you complain about is Mizhena. I don't remember many options to be rude to clerics in general, so why is it so important with this one particular cleric?

I don't think @Rawgrim wants to have an option to be discriminatory or anything; I think it's more about a perceived inconsistency with other parts of the game where you can be rude, evil, etc (although I firmly believe that inconsistency doesn't exist).

I think a good compromise would be a "don't have time to speak to you" generic dismissal that doesn't reference gender/adjacent issues at all.

Exactly. Or just "I don't give a damn about your gender".

Sigh. Just watched my olive branch wilt. Agree to disagree, I guess.

Well that meant the player doesn't have anything against her being transgendered. And that he wants to go about the business at hand. Like it is a non issue.

BelleSorciere

Rawgrim said:

BelleSorciere said:

But when people first complained about not being able to be rude to Mizhena, they made it clear they were specifically complaining about not being able to reject Mizhena. The goalposts that were moved is the narrative now that says it's just about being rude to clerics, not that it's about being rude to Mizhena. It kind of shows when the only NPC you complain about is Mizhena. I don't remember many options to be rude to clerics in general, so why is it so important with this one particular cleric?

Because she already looks like a political add. And not being able to be anything but very polite to her, enforces it.

Just what I gathered from looking at the forums etc. I see the issue.

My complaint has always been that the character is a cleric. Rudeness from an evil cleric or a necromancer would make sense. It is by no means a deal-breaker, and it doesn't make the game bad, though. But the character is one that could have been expanded upon a lot.

I just want to say I assume you mean exactly what you say - to clarify since I made the comment about goalpost shifting, which has happened, but I assume has not in your case.

I don't think she's a political add - I think that's a perspective distortion. You're not accustomed to transgender characters appearing in a lot of media, esp. not in such a respected position. It's no more political than including Dynaheir in Baldur's Gate was. Which is to say it's no less, either. But the decision to not include a transgender character (Mizhena) or a person of color (Dynaheir) is just as much (and just as little) a political decision as the decision to include them is.

I'd say there's no need to have any more rudeness for Mizhena than for any other cleric in all three Baldur's Gate installments. If there are options to be rude to other NPC clerics, then knock yourself out. If not, there's no reason to make a special exception for this one cleric.

Maybe someone will make a mod.

Roseweave

The assumption a lot of GGers are making is that(while also making the argument transness is completely out of place in the realms) is that transness in the realms would be treated exactly the same, meaning transphobia should exist and well, the PC should get the opportunity to engage in it. It might not particularly occur to an Evil character unless they knew it was something very personal and was trying to get under their skin, or even if transphobia was common an Evil character might consider it low hanging fruit.

I think this sort of brings up a lot of questions about playing an "Evil" character. Like... in a certain setting for example it could mean playing a character who is a white supremacist, or a rapist... it's getting into seriously touchy territory, because of the sort of shape "Evil" takes in our world. For that reason they usually avoid very specific real world villains, or unsympathetic villains under such circumstances. I don't like the idea of giving players the option to play an "Evil" character primarily to be an ass to people they're already an ass to in real life, except moreso.

BelleSorciere

Purudaya said:

BelleSorciere said:

But when people first complained about not being able to be rude to Mizhena, they made it clear they were specifically complaining about not being able to reject Mizhena. The goalposts that were moved is the narrative now that says it's just about being rude to clerics, not that it's about being rude to Mizhena. It kind of shows when the only NPC you complain about is Mizhena. I don't remember many options to be rude to clerics in general, so why is it so important with this one particular cleric?

I don't think @Rawgrim wants to have an option to be discriminatory or anything; I think it's more about a perceived inconsistency with other parts of the game where you can be rude, evil, etc (although I firmly believe that inconsistency doesn't exist).

I think a good compromise would be a "don't have time to speak to you" generic dismissal that doesn't reference gender/adjacent issues at all.

Yeah, I don't think it exists either. And I agree on the compromise.

Purudaya

Rawgrim said:

Purudaya said:

Rawgrim said:

Purudaya said:

BelleSorciere said:

But when people first complained about not being able to be rude to Mizhena, they made it clear they were specifically complaining about not being able to reject Mizhena. The goalposts that were moved is the narrative now that says it's just about being rude to clerics, not that it's about being rude to Mizhena. It kind of shows when the only NPC you complain about is Mizhena. I don't remember many options to be rude to clerics in general, so why is it so important with this one particular cleric?

I don't think @Rawgrim wants to have an option to be discriminatory or anything; I think it's more about a perceived inconsistency with other parts of the game where you can be rude, evil, etc (although I firmly believe that inconsistency doesn't exist).

I think a good compromise would be a "don't have time to speak to you" generic dismissal that doesn't reference gender/adjacent issues at all.

Exactly. Or just "I don't give a damn about your gender".

Sigh. Just watched my olive branch wilt. Agree to disagree, I guess.

Well that meant the player doesn't have anything against her being transgendered. And that he wants to go about the business at hand. Like it is a non issue.

Ah, so phrasing then. I don't know how or whether something like that should be included, but I take you at your intention.

David_Gaider

Purudaya said:

AOn that topic, I hope that the devs and writers are planning to actively seek suggestions from trans forum members if they're interested in providing it. There are a few members who are out publicly, but I know of some that are not – if there would be a place for them to leave their feedback and feel safe and anonymous doing so, I think that would be great.

While we haven't yet discussed the scope of any potential changes to the character, anyone who has suggestions regarding how she might be changed should feel free to send me a private message. I can't promise it'll fit, but it also can't hurt to listen.

Purudaya

Roseweave said:

The assumption a lot of GGers are making is that(while also making the argument transness is completely out of place in the realms) is that transness in the realms would be treated exactly the same, meaning transphobia should exist and well, the PC should get the opportunity to engage in it. It might not particularly occur to an Evil character unless they knew it was something very personal and was trying to get under their skin, or even if transphobia was common an Evil character might consider it low hanging fruit.

I think this sort of brings up a lot of questions about playing an "Evil" character. Like... in a certain setting for example it could mean playing a character who is a white supremacist, or a rapist... it's getting into seriously touchy territory, because of the sort of shape "Evil" takes in our world. For that reason they usually avoid very specific real world villains, or unsympathetic villains under such circumstances. I don't like the idea of giving players the option to play an "Evil" character primarily to be an ass to people they're already an ass to in real life, except moreso.

Lots of thoughtful points there. The creator of the Forgotten Realms recently posted that trans people exist in the realms – I think Beamdog should ask him how trans people are typically *treated* in the realms and use that to help inform their writing. Maybe Faerunites (Faerunians?) are totally good with it, or maybe people with non binary gender identities face struggle. If it's the latter case, the argument from Gamergate is that games shouldn't always have to reflect modern realities...so there's no need to reflect the modern reality of transphobic dialogue.

EDIT: which, again, I don't think we even have to remotely worry about Beamdog doing.

Rawgrim

BelleSorciere said:

Rawgrim said:

BelleSorciere said:

But when people first complained about not being able to be rude to Mizhena, they made it clear they were specifically complaining about not being able to reject Mizhena. The goalposts that were moved is the narrative now that says it's just about being rude to clerics, not that it's about being rude to Mizhena. It kind of shows when the only NPC you complain about is Mizhena. I don't remember many options to be rude to clerics in general, so why is it so important with this one particular cleric?

Because she already looks like a political add. And not being able to be anything but very polite to her, enforces it.

Just what I gathered from looking at the forums etc. I see the issue.

My complaint has always been that the character is a cleric. Rudeness from an evil cleric or a necromancer would make sense. It is by no means a deal-breaker, and it doesn't make the game bad, though. But the character is one that could have been expanded upon a lot.

I just want to say I assume you mean exactly what you say - to clarify since I made the comment about goalpost shifting, which has happened, but I assume has not in your case.

I don't think she's a political add - I think that's a perspective distortion. You're not accustomed to transgender characters appearing in a lot of media, esp. not in such a respected position. It's no more political than including Dynaheir in Baldur's Gate was. Which is to say it's no less, either. But the decision to not include a transgender character (Mizhena) or a person of color (Dynaheir) is just as much (and just as little) a political decision as the decision to include them is.

I'd say there's no need to have any more rudeness for Mizhena than for any other cleric in all three Baldur's Gate installments. If there are options to be rude to other NPC clerics, then knock yourself out. If not, there's no reason to make a special exception for this one cleric.

Maybe someone will make a mod.

Dragon Age 3 had one. Krem, I think he was called. Right-hand man of the Iron Bull. That character was superb. Extremely well written, very fleshed out, and fit the story like a glove.

Did that fellow get a huge outcry from players? I don't remember. Been awhile.

Rawgrim

Purudaya said:

Rawgrim said:

Purudaya said:

Rawgrim said:

Purudaya said:

BelleSorciere said:

But when people first complained about not being able to be rude to Mizhena, they made it clear they were specifically complaining about not being able to reject Mizhena. The goalposts that were moved is the narrative now that says it's just about being rude to clerics, not that it's about being rude to Mizhena. It kind of shows when the only NPC you complain about is Mizhena. I don't remember many options to be rude to clerics in general, so why is it so important with this one particular cleric?

I don't think @Rawgrim wants to have an option to be discriminatory or anything; I think it's more about a perceived inconsistency with other parts of the game where you can be rude, evil, etc (although I firmly believe that inconsistency doesn't exist).

I think a good compromise would be a "don't have time to speak to you" generic dismissal that doesn't reference gender/adjacent issues at all.

Exactly. Or just "I don't give a damn about your gender".

Sigh. Just watched my olive branch wilt. Agree to disagree, I guess.

Well that meant the player doesn't have anything against her being transgendered. And that he wants to go about the business at hand. Like it is a non issue.

Ah, so phrasing then. I don't know how or whether something like that should be included, but I take you at your intention.

Ideally a transgendered companion would be a very interesting addition to the game(s).

Something like this maybe: A female wizard trapped in a male body. She spends years researching a spell that will transform her permanently into the gender she feels she is. Spell is ready to be cast after a lifetime of research. Then a vampire bites her. The regenerative powers of the vamp curse prevents the spell from working. Heartbreak. Lots of possibilities for personal quests as well, if the player wants to help her.

TStael

I'd first should like a patch for bugs, then an improvement of romance partner dialogues to recognize there was one (though have no vested interest here) and then maybe expansion of Mizhena story.

If this expansion would be significant, I'd pay for it as DLC, as it will require writing effort.

BelleSorciere

Rawgrim said:

Dragon Age 3 had one. Krem, I think he was called. Right-hand man of the Iron Bull. That character was superb. Extremely well written, very fleshed out, and fit the story like a glove.

Did that fellow get a huge outcry from players? I don't remember. Been awhile.

I wasn't paying attention at the time, and I've seen people both say he did get a reaction and that he didn't. I'm inclined to believe he did get a reaction, but clearly not one quite as intense as Mizhena. Another trans character that didn't get a big reaction was Kaoru in The Secret World.