Let's not get the facts twisted here: Siege of Dragonspear is known for the backlash because a bunch of transphobic schmucks took it upon themselves to make a lot of noise over three lines of dialogue.
This I would argue is actually twisting the facts. If none of the politics expressed outside of he game had occurred, how much differently do you think Mizhena would have gone over? As you said, it was long ago that Scott made it very clear what she thought of "the other side". So the "other side" knew ahead of time how to interpret (or misinterpret) things found in the game, such as Mizhena or the equally arguably poorly interpreted "mansplaining".
Let's not get the facts twisted here: Siege of Dragonspear is known for the backlash because a bunch of transphobic schmucks took it upon themselves to make a lot of noise over three lines of dialogue. The "politics" you're protesting boils down to the fact that Amber Scott put a transgender character in the game just because she felt like it. (And we know this because the first reviews of SoD across the board mention Mizhena specifically. There are dates and times on every single comment on Steam, on GOG and here.)
That's it. A female writer empowered and authorized by Wizards of the Coast added a minor transgender character on a whim, and gave that character three lines of dialogue. Oh, and accusations that Jaheira and Safana were rewritten, which no one has been able to prove so far because they haven't played SoD long enough to find any evidence of that.
That's the terrible agenda she shoved down your throats. That's all you've got.
Tell me again why we're supposed to take any of this seriously.
I'm not going to keep running in circles about this.
"I’m happy to be an SJW and I hope to write many Social Justice Games in the future" - Amber Scott.
A game that is actually very good, if not for all the glaring and obvious thematics about modern social juctice issues.
Yes, because none of that was going on with the original games in 1998 and 2000. You didn't have cowardly (Khalid, Garrick), drunken (Korgan, Kagain), traitorous (Edwin, Sarevok) or lecherous (Coran, Haer'Dalis) male characters back then. They were all powerful role models for the modern gamer, and none of them were "forced". *rolleye*
This argument will go on forever, some people love the new hyper gay, pro feminist safe space that BG has become and others don't, there's not much more to it than that.
Oh stop giving us facts Shawne. We don't want facts about the actual content of Siege of Dragonspear, or Baldurs Gate. We want to go on and on about that dastardly SJW agenda being forced down our throats.
A single line of dialogue that you had to click on a character several times to hear, in a game that has hundreds, if not thousands of lines of dialogue. And a line that Beamdog have already said they will remove. That's a fact and we don't want it!
A single unimportant character with a few lines of dialogue in a game with lots and lots of characters who say lots and lots of things. That's a fact and we don't want it!
The way beloved characters from the original game have been written... oh wait, they havn't been re-written, just developed and added to and made more detailed. That's a fact and we don't want it!
The way all this stuff breaks my immersion. You mean like all those original popular culture references and fourth wall dialogue breaks in the original BG games. They are facts and we don't want them!
A game that is actually very good, if not for all the glaring and obvious thematics about modern social juctice issues.
Yes, because none of that was going on with the original games in 1998 and 2000. You didn't have cowardly (Khalid, Garrick), drunken (Korgan, Kagain), traitorous (Edwin, Sarevok) or lecherous (Coran, Haer'Dalis) male characters back then. They were all powerful role models for the modern gamer, and none of them were "forced". *rolleye*
And there was the same amount of feeble and almost-defenseless female characters with low moral codes.
Plato was discoursing on his theory of ideas and, pointing to the people on the forums before him, said while there are many people who care about social justice on the forums, there is only one ‘idea’ of a SJW, and this ‘SJWness’ precedes the existence of all particular seekers of social justice. “I can see the people on the forum,” interrupted Diogenes, “but I can’t see the ‘SJWness’.'” “That’s because you have the eyes to read the posts,” said Plato, “but,” tapping his head with his forefinger, “you don’t have the intellect with which to comprehend ‘SJWness’.'” Diogenes walked up to the forum, examined a thread and, looking inside, asked, “Is it empty of merit?” Plato nodded. “Where is the ‘emptiness’ which precedes this empty thread?” asked Diogenes. Plato allowed himself a few moments to collect his thoughts, but Diogenes reached over and, tapping Plato’s head with his finger, said “I think you will find here is the ‘emptiness’.'”
Lorvaylin, I admit I was being sarcastic (and probably poorly so).
At the start of last week I didn't even know what an 'SJW' was (I had to google the term when I came across it on this forum).
You can imagine my surprise when I discovered the world is embroiled in a cultural war, where TV and film companies, authors and writers and game developers are churning out political propaganda and inserting it into their programmes, films, comics, books and games.
I'm not going to keep running in circles about this.
"I’m happy to be an SJW and I hope to write many Social Justice Games in the future" - Amber Scott.
Siege of Dragonspear: the Social Justice Game!
And this, right here? Is exactly where the old "I'm not homophobic/transphobic/misogynistic BUT" fallacy comes apart.
Because in the context of that discussion you're so fond of quoting, Amber is answering someone who defines SJW as "is okay with LGBT people and/or women" (because, lest we forget, she said this in response to someone who wanted Hexxat removed from the game because she's a lesbian). If that's what "Social Justice" actually means, and that's what you're protesting? Congratulations, you are a homophobe/transphobe/misogynist (pick whichever applies based on whichever character you're complaining about).
There is literally no other definition for "SJW" being offered, and no other context in which an "agenda" is being forced down your throat.
You're complaining about LGBT and pro-women content in a video game. Sit down, shut up, and stop lying.
This argument will go on forever, some people love the new hyper gay, pro feminist safe space that BG has become and others don't, there's not much more to it than that.
On the contrary dear @Lorvaylin what is and remains amusing is that people who complain all the time about 'SJW's' have proven themselves to be exactly what they hate. When they showed that they were so petty to be outraged over a GG inspired line or that gay and transgender people offend their sensibilities by the outrageous act of simply being there.
When people proclaim that SoD ruined their childhood it is not because BG has become a safe space, it is because those people need a safe space themselves against the 'horrific' reality that you have to accept that trans/gay people also have a place to be there.
I'm not going to keep running in circles about this.
"I’m happy to be an SJW and I hope to write many Social Justice Games in the future" - Amber Scott.
Siege of Dragonspear: the Social Justice Game!
And this, right here? Is exactly where the old "I'm not homophobic/transphobic/misogynistic BUT" fallacy comes apart.
Because in the context of that discussion you're so fond of quoting, Amber is responding to someone who defines SJW as "is okay with LGBT people and/or women". If that's what "Social Justice" actually means, and that's what you're protesting? Congratulations, you are a homophobe/transphobe/misogynist (pick whichever applies based on whichever character you're complaining about).
There is literally no other definition for "SJW" being offered, and no other context in which an "agenda" is being forced down your throat.
You're complaining about LGBT and pro-women content in a video game. Sit down, shut up, and stop lying.
Thank you for all of those lovely compliments, this just strengthens my feelings on what this forum has become, and sadly it's not just the new accounts that are hostile and verbally abuse others.
I'm done with this forum for the moment. I rather not have my opinion on old community members destroyed by their inability to behave properly. The way I see it, when you start to take things personally and insult others, you've lost any sense of credibility in your argument.
What's that? No answer? No alternative definition for "SJW" that somehow explains what you're specifically against? More lies about "what this forum has become" as if the exact same arguments weren't being made about Hexxat in 2013, and a year before that with Dorn?
I'm not going to keep running in circles about this.
"I’m happy to be an SJW and I hope to write many Social Justice Games in the future" - Amber Scott.
Siege of Dragonspear: the Social Justice Game!
And this, right here? Is exactly where the old "I'm not homophobic/transphobic/misogynistic BUT" fallacy comes apart.
Because in the context of that discussion you're so fond of quoting, Amber is responding to someone who defines SJW as "is okay with LGBT people and/or women". If that's what "Social Justice" actually means, and that's what you're protesting? Congratulations, you are a homophobe/transphobe/misogynist (pick whichever applies based on whichever character you're complaining about).
There is literally no other definition for "SJW" being offered, and no other context in which an "agenda" is being forced down your throat.
You're complaining about LGBT and pro-women content in a video game. Sit down, shut up, and stop lying.
Thank you for all of those lovely compliments, this just strengthens my feelings on what this forum has become, and sadly it's not just the new accounts that are hostile and verbally abuse others.
I'm done with this forum for the moment. I rather not have my opinion on old community members destroyed by their inability to behave properly. The way I see it, when you start to take things personally and insult others, you've lost any sense of credibility in your argument.
And this exchange right here is one of the reasons why as a storyteller, one should be cautious of disclosing their personal views. This can be prevented.
Just out of curiousity, I did a google search for the definition:
"A social justice warrior, or SJW, does not necessarily strongly believe all that they say, or even care about the groups they are fighting on behalf of."
This argument will go on forever, some people love the new hyper gay, pro feminist safe space that BG has become and others don't, there's not much more to it than that.
On the contrary dear @Lorvaylin what is and remains amusing is that people who complain all the time about 'SJW's' have proven themselves to be exactly what they hate. When they showed that they were so petty to be outraged over a GG inspired line or that gay and transgender people offend their sensibilities by the outrageous act of simply being there.
When people proclaim that SoD ruined their childhood it is not because BG has become a safe space, it is because those people need a safe space themselves against the 'horrific' reality that you have to accept that trans/gay people also have a place to be there.
And this exchange right here is one of the reasons why as a storytellerforum poster, one should be cautious of disclosing their personal views. This can be prevented.
man leaves wife and 7 kids to pretends he's a 6 year old girl, yes nothing horrific about that
This has literally nothing to do with transgender people, social justice, or this discussion. It's random and out of the blue.
Also, I wonder if these anti-free speech champions who believe writers must censor their politics have ever uttered a single word of criticism about Orson Scott Card's political views and how he presents them. Or Dave Sim's political views, which were blatantly and repeatedly expressed in his comic, Cerebus.
I mostly waiting for some mods to get 2.0 ready. The whole controversy about SoD cleared up pretty fast, as most of the (negative) claims about the game proved to be false or heavily biased.
Also, I wonder if these anti-free speech champions who believe writers must censor their politics have ever uttered a single word of criticism about Orson Scott Card's political views and how he presents them. Or Dave Sim's political views, which were blatantly and repeatedly expressed in his comic, Cerebus.
They should get started on that.
I had read about Card's views and found it unfortunate to have read them before reading the first two books in the Ender series. Fortunately I never found myself able to interpret any of his beliefs being touched on in those books so I enjoyed them.
The difference between that and this should be apparent. People here were able to interpret (or misinterpret) many things, partially due to the umbrella of the politics involved covering such a large radius. On top of that, it is a hot topic. So again, I believe the mistake at the root of all this is storytellers divulging their political beliefs. The results may vary, but here they should have been foreseen and avoided presuming they did not want to cause a stir.
This argument will go on forever, some people love the new hyper gay, pro feminist safe space that BG has become and others don't, there's not much more to it than that.
On the contrary dear @Lorvaylin what is and remains amusing is that people who complain all the time about 'SJW's' have proven themselves to be exactly what they hate. When they showed that they were so petty to be outraged over a GG inspired line or that gay and transgender people offend their sensibilities by the outrageous act of simply being there.
When people proclaim that SoD ruined their childhood it is not because BG has become a safe space, it is because those people need a safe space themselves against the 'horrific' reality that you have to accept that trans/gay people also have a place to be there.
This argument will go on forever, some people love the new hyper gay, pro feminist safe space that BG has become and others don't, there's not much more to it than that.
On the contrary dear @Lorvaylin what is and remains amusing is that people who complain all the time about 'SJW's' have proven themselves to be exactly what they hate. When they showed that they were so petty to be outraged over a GG inspired line or that gay and transgender people offend their sensibilities by the outrageous act of simply being there.
When people proclaim that SoD ruined their childhood it is not because BG has become a safe space, it is because those people need a safe space themselves against the 'horrific' reality that you have to accept that trans/gay people also have a place to be there.
man leaves wife and 7 kids to pretend he's a 6 year old girl, yes nothing horrific about that
You do realize she is not in the game?
'she' haha no he isn't in the game but I was responding to you saying I need a safe space, and yes me and my children do need a safe space from that bloke for sure.
This argument will go on forever, some people love the new hyper gay, pro feminist safe space that BG has become and others don't, there's not much more to it than that.
On the contrary dear @Lorvaylin what is and remains amusing is that people who complain all the time about 'SJW's' have proven themselves to be exactly what they hate. When they showed that they were so petty to be outraged over a GG inspired line or that gay and transgender people offend their sensibilities by the outrageous act of simply being there.
When people proclaim that SoD ruined their childhood it is not because BG has become a safe space, it is because those people need a safe space themselves against the 'horrific' reality that you have to accept that trans/gay people also have a place to be there.
man leaves wife and 7 kids to pretend he's a 6 year old girl, yes nothing horrific about that
You do realize she is not in the game?
'she' haha no heshe isn't in the game but I was responding to you saying I need a safe space,
Ftfy ;-) and indeed when the simple reality of a transcharacter being in existence within a game offends people, then it is clearly not the socalled 'sjw's' who are in need of a safe space.
and yes me and my children do need a safe space from that bloke for sure.
Well at least that is being more honest than the people who makes all sort of excuses about more or less 'realism in the context of the setting'. I do hope you will overcome the reality that transgenders will probably be portrayed a bit more in pieces of fiction and getting more legal protections against discrimination and such in the nearby future.
Just out of curiousity, I did a google search for the definition:
"A social justice warrior, or SJW, does not necessarily strongly believe all that they say, or even care about the groups they are fighting on behalf of."
Yeah, that's pretty confusing.
Exactly so. What are these beliefs? What groups are they fighting for? Who determines the strength of those beliefs, or whether they're genuine? If you say Amber Scott is a SJW, are you saying she doesn't actually care about women or LGBT people? If she didn't care, why put Mizhena in the game at all? It's not a marketing stunt, she's not an NPC, the game never publicized itself with "WE HAVE A TRANSEXUAL CHARACTER".
Did anyone even bother to ask Amber after the game's release? Did anyone try to have a conversation with this writer to understand what she does or doesn't believe? Or did they just pick up a forum post from August and conveniently forget that it was a response to someone asking to delete a gay character from the game?
No, of course not. She's a woman who adopted the title someone else dropped on her, in order to make her case for telling her stories the way she wants to. Nobody cares what she thinks.
Comments
"I’m happy to be an SJW and I hope to write many Social Justice Games in the future" - Amber Scott.
Siege of Dragonspear: the Social Justice Game!
A single line of dialogue that you had to click on a character several times to hear, in a game that has hundreds, if not thousands of lines of dialogue. And a line that Beamdog have already said they will remove. That's a fact and we don't want it!
A single unimportant character with a few lines of dialogue in a game with lots and lots of characters who say lots and lots of things. That's a fact and we don't want it!
The way beloved characters from the original game have been written... oh wait, they havn't been re-written, just developed and added to and made more detailed. That's a fact and we don't want it!
The way all this stuff breaks my immersion. You mean like all those original popular culture references and fourth wall dialogue breaks in the original BG games. They are facts and we don't want them!
Its that dastardly SJW agenda, I tell ya!
Being forced down our throats I tell ya!
Keep your facts to yourself please.
“I can see the people on the forum,” interrupted Diogenes, “but I can’t see the ‘SJWness’.'”
“That’s because you have the eyes to read the posts,” said Plato, “but,” tapping his head with his forefinger, “you don’t have the intellect with which to comprehend ‘SJWness’.'”
Diogenes walked up to the forum, examined a thread and, looking inside, asked, “Is it empty of merit?”
Plato nodded.
“Where is the ‘emptiness’ which precedes this empty thread?” asked Diogenes.
Plato allowed himself a few moments to collect his thoughts, but Diogenes reached over and, tapping Plato’s head with his finger, said “I think you will find here is the ‘emptiness’.'”
LOL SJW's are either insane or trolling.
At the start of last week I didn't even know what an 'SJW' was (I had to google the term when I came across it on this forum).
You can imagine my surprise when I discovered the world is embroiled in a cultural war, where TV and film companies, authors and writers and game developers are churning out political propaganda and inserting it into their programmes, films, comics, books and games.
I have to admit its not a reality I recognise.
Because in the context of that discussion you're so fond of quoting, Amber is answering someone who defines SJW as "is okay with LGBT people and/or women" (because, lest we forget, she said this in response to someone who wanted Hexxat removed from the game because she's a lesbian). If that's what "Social Justice" actually means, and that's what you're protesting? Congratulations, you are a homophobe/transphobe/misogynist (pick whichever applies based on whichever character you're complaining about).
There is literally no other definition for "SJW" being offered, and no other context in which an "agenda" is being forced down your throat.
You're complaining about LGBT and pro-women content in a video game. Sit down, shut up, and stop lying.
When people proclaim that SoD ruined their childhood it is not because BG has become a safe space, it is because those people need a safe space themselves against the 'horrific' reality that you have to accept that trans/gay people also have a place to be there.
I'm done with this forum for the moment. I rather not have my opinion on old community members destroyed by their inability to behave properly. The way I see it, when you start to take things personally and insult others, you've lost any sense of credibility in your argument.
Yeah. About what I expected. Get gone.
"A social justice warrior, or SJW, does not necessarily strongly believe all that they say, or even care about the groups they are fighting on behalf of."
Yeah, that's pretty confusing.
man leaves wife and 7 kids to pretend he's a 6 year old girl, yes nothing horrific about that
Also, I wonder if these anti-free speech champions who believe writers must censor their politics have ever uttered a single word of criticism about Orson Scott Card's political views and how he presents them. Or Dave Sim's political views, which were blatantly and repeatedly expressed in his comic, Cerebus.
They should get started on that.
The difference between that and this should be apparent. People here were able to interpret (or misinterpret) many things, partially due to the umbrella of the politics involved covering such a large radius. On top of that, it is a hot topic. So again, I believe the mistake at the root of all this is storytellers divulging their political beliefs. The results may vary, but here they should have been foreseen and avoided presuming they did not want to cause a stir.
There will be no further warnings. Any post after this one breaking the forum rules will result in immediate jailing or even banishment.
This is just a friendly reminder for everyone to read the site rules.
Did anyone even bother to ask Amber after the game's release? Did anyone try to have a conversation with this writer to understand what she does or doesn't believe? Or did they just pick up a forum post from August and conveniently forget that it was a response to someone asking to delete a gay character from the game?
No, of course not. She's a woman who adopted the title someone else dropped on her, in order to make her case for telling her stories the way she wants to. Nobody cares what she thinks.