Jester

PK2748

Is the Jester song really worth anything? The idea of a disabling sing really appeals to me it at high levels when it really has multiple effects the saving throws are so easy to make it seems pointless

erronius

In short, no, it's not very good. For one thing, as you said because of the +4 bonus it does not scale well. It's going to be most effective early when enemies saving throws are low (and they aren't simply immune to these effects as later enemies will be).

The other problem is that (in my opinion at least) Confusion (and to a lesser extent Charm + variants) are just not good effects in these types of games. This may just be my own preference, but I think you're better off just killing stuff. A well-placed fireball can just wipe out a whole group of enemies, instead of Confusing them. When enemies are confused they might still attack you, so it's not even a reliable form of CC.

There are definitely some fights that can be made easier by a quick Dire Charm (especially if you combine with Malison) to turn a dangerous enemy to your side, but confusion is unreliable.

Just my opinion.

TheArtisan

It appears like the jester's song was improved at some point from the vanilla version and is significantly more powerful now.



And @erronius you vastly underestimate the power of disabling control effects. Confusion completely ruins mages as it prevents them from casting and while you can argue that a fighter can still attack you while confused it's just as likely for them to turn on their allies instead and even if luck's not in your favor it's a simple matter of moving away until they decide to stop.

There's also a difference between casting a +2 saving throw spell once and casting it every round and, to my knowledge, ignoring magic resistance and being instant-cast, uninterruptible and available at all times. You can literally just buff up your jester with defenses, stroll into the middle of battle and sing, and sooner or later the rolls will favor you. Those times where casting a spell would make a fight easier but it's too valuable to use? The jester doesn't have to deal with that.

PK2748

I love disabling effects and I love the fact that magic resistance doesn't help but the save bonuses seem to undermine the effectiveness

TheArtisan

It's just +2. The level 1 cleric spell Doom alone cancels the bonus out and it forces enemies to roll every round. If it incurred a penalty it would be horrifically busted.

PK2748

Yeah I'm just curious in the BG2 if that +2 means every round it's ineffective?

TheArtisan

No? I mean sure it means the rolls aren't exactly in your favor but if +2 was ineffective we wouldn't get fun posts from people talking about killing dragons with Chromatic Orb (which is +6, infinitely worse).

erronius

A big problem with disabling effects is that they are often least effective when you need them most. Are you going to Confuse Abazigal? No, and good luck trying to Dire Charm Irenicus. I'm sure there are some fights where these effects can be useful (and if we move into IWD2 territory, Mass Domination can be amazing - but that's balanced very differently).

Part of it is just a strategy preference; I prefer effects that are reliable, and that still have some effect if the enemy makes a saving throw.

TheArtisan

Late BG2 boss fights require a completely different strategy to the rest of the game. Confusion is a complete game breaker when it works against 90% of enemies including the hardest battles in BG1 because you're mostly fighting living, mortal humanoids. I know confusion doesn't work against Irenicus and the Five. But you don't have to use it then. It's like saying mages are useless because you occasionally run into enemies that are near-immune to magic.

erronius

Artemius_I said:

I know confusion doesn't work against Irenicus and the Five. But you don't have to use it then. It's like saying mages are useless because you occasionally run into enemies that are near-immune to magic.

It's really not like that at all. First, there aren't a lot of enemies that are near-immune to magic, and for those you have Energy Blades/Lower Resistance. But really, my point about the Jester is... this is all he does. Bards aren't really a strong class to begin with (they are the proverbial jack of all trades). Mages have a lot of tools besides just confusion.

Cal_El

I remember never using disabling/CCspells it was always damage damage damage. Now though Confusion and then even better Chaos is a battle changer.

Confused chucking chain lightnings in confined spaces. Better than your front lines tanning from fireballs.

Thats not to say fireballs etc dont have their uses.

Orangemoose

I enjoyed it when I tried it.
Jester's song + invisibility made some fun things happen.
Shame that when your enemies kill each other you don't get the exp even when you caused the status to happen.
That really needs a fix.