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More Diversity in NPCs PLEASE

spacehamzterspacehamzter Member Posts: 77
I have to admit with all this talk of diversity I feel kind of left out as a black man. In fact, playing Baldur’s Gate sometimes feels like I am visiting the Rocky Mountains. The higher I go up in levels the whiter it gets. Most if not all the human characters I meet are white in the games. BG1 & BG2 made it a point to have at least one black NPC to make the quota but that just makes it like real life, where a black person is needed to appease the so called “white guilt”. This also brings up another point that I want to make to my gay and transgender friends. Get used to guilty people putting just “one” of you in their games, movies or work place to make themselves feel good. As you noticed the new DLC includes one of each. One black, transgender, gay romance option, and a bisexual option. This makes the point Al Sharpton made when people voted for Obama when he said, “it makes guilty whites feel good”. As a person of diversity all I want is a game where I can see real diversity and not just a quota. Why cant we have several LGBTQ characters in the game and more colored people.
***Edit -I took a look at what Ed Greenwood had to say about diversity on his FB page. All I have to say is, I think Eddy has been spending too much time making books for the Adult Section of the bookstore. His emphasis, as I read it, is geared more toward sexual diversity. In contrast, if I had to guess, I would say that 95% of stuff with his name behind it involves mostly white characters and white worlds, which to me is hypocritical. Before anyone mentions R. A. Salvator and old Drizzt. As a black man I see Drizzt as the Kunta-Kinta of the Drow who became the Toby for the white races. It’s plain to see the reverse class warfare that the drow brought to the realm. I mean look at the evil black drow who live in the cave and are slave masters. Now, the mighty white High Elves feel justified and are the victims. This is an obvious political statement that almost makes a mockery of black history.
Post edited by spacehamzter on
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Comments

  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,460
    Well, the regions where the adventure takes place may be to blame. If the game took a trip to Chult, where Hexxat originates from if I am not mistaken, I am sure we could have seen more black men and women.
  • spacehamzterspacehamzter Member Posts: 77
    edited April 2016
    lunar said:

    Well, the regions where the adventure takes place may be to blame. If the game took a trip to Chult, where Hexxat originates from if I am not mistaken, I am sure we could have seen more black men and women.

    I see, so keep all the blacks far,far away from all the places most of RPG games take place. I have yet to play a game in Toril, any WOTC one, where its afrocentric. By the way, we black D&D fans don't appreciate the 5e PHB that has one of us brothers running around with a spear. We blacks are tired of the jungle ideologies that they put us in these games.

  • spacehamzterspacehamzter Member Posts: 77
    edited April 2016
    Grimo88 said:

    I have to admit with all this talk of diversity I feel kind of left out as a black man. In fact, playing Baldur’s Gate sometimes feels like I am visiting the Rocky Mountains. The higher I go up in levels the whiter it gets. Most if not all the human characters I meet are white in the games. BG1 & BG2 made it a point to have at least one black NPC to make the quota but that just makes it like real life, where a black person is needed to appease the so called “white guilt”. This also brings up another point that I want to make to my gay and transgender friends. Get used to guilty people putting just “one” of you in their games, movies or work place to make themselves feel good. As you noticed the new DLC includes one of each. One black, transgender, gay romance option, and a bisexual option. This makes the point Al Sharpton made when people voted for Obama when he said, “it makes guilty whites feel good”. As a person of diversity all I want is a game where I can see real diversity and not just a quota. Why cant we have several LGBTQ characters in the game and more colored people.

    Dude, your first few diversity parody posts were funny. This is like the 5th one. We get it.

    Hardy har har
    you see me laughing? We all know the real reason for why people like me are not being represented in games like this. Admit it

    Post edited by spacehamzter on
  • PhilhelmPhilhelm Member Posts: 473
    Really, it's all about quality in NPC diversity.

    As a rich, white, corporate CEO with an offshore bank account, I found Yoshimo to be the best NPC in the series. Seriously, Yoshimo just exudes cool. "Fleet of foot, and all that." "I can dance on the head of a pin as well." "Hiiii-ya..." He's a badass, independent-operating bounty hunter. Token or not, he's still the best, and is much better than Annoymen.
  • Diogenes42Diogenes42 Member Posts: 597
    Philhelm said:

    Really, it's all about quality in NPC diversity.

    As a rich, white, corporate CEO with an offshore bank account, I found Yoshimo to be the best NPC in the series. Seriously, Yoshimo just exudes cool. "Fleet of foot, and all that." "I can dance on the head of a pin as well." "Hiiii-ya..." He's a badass, independent-operating bounty hunter. Token or not, he's still the best, and is much better than Annoymen.

    Yoshimo is indeed a very fun character. Although you reminded me of something I always found hilarious: the item description for katanas.



  • spacehamzterspacehamzter Member Posts: 77
    Philhelm said:

    Really, it's all about quality in NPC diversity.

    As a rich, white, corporate CEO with an offshore bank account, I found Yoshimo to be the best NPC in the series. Seriously, Yoshimo just exudes cool. "Fleet of foot, and all that." "I can dance on the head of a pin as well." "Hiiii-ya..." He's a badass, independent-operating bounty hunter. Token or not, he's still the best, and is much better than Annoymen.

    The "one" Asian.
  • BillyBroBillyBro Member Posts: 62
    The problem is creating a black NPC or PC would make him the lone black person in the game, and a lot of white on black violence would result from this. And a lot, and I mean a lot of drama would ensue.
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,164
    All I can say about this is that I love the new black male portrait with the Carthaginian helmet. My paladin looks like a boss.
  • Diogenes42Diogenes42 Member Posts: 597
    edited April 2016

    All I can say about this is that I love the new black male portrait with the Carthaginian helmet. My paladin looks like a boss.

    Hello friend. While I am always in favour of new portraits and you are a lovely person, I maintain my position that Carthage must be destroyed.
  • spacehamzterspacehamzter Member Posts: 77
    edited April 2016
    adding this edit ***Edit -I took a look at what Ed Greenwood had to say about diversity on his FB page. All I have to say is, I think Eddy has been spending too much time making books for the Adult Section of the bookstore. His emphasis, as I read it, is geared more toward sexual diversity. In contrast, if I had to guess, I would say that 95% of stuff with his name behind involves mostly white characters and white worlds, which to me is hypocritical. Before anyone mentions R. A. Salvator and old Drizzt. As a black man I see Drizzt as the Kunta-Kinta of the Drow who became the Toby for the white races. It’s plain to see the reverse class warfare that the drow brought to the realm. I mean look at the evil black drow who live in the cave and are slave masters. Now, the mighty white High Elves feel justified and are the victims. This is an obvious political statement that almost makes a mockery of black history.
  • Google_CalasadeGoogle_Calasade Member Posts: 80
    edited April 2016
    What I don't get is people connecting or not connecting with characters because of skin color, sexual orientation, sexual status, etc. Any connecting that involves those is described with a word that ends in "ism" or "ist", so I don't know. To me, this whole thing about diversity is hypocritical and a little ridiculous, expecting a game to reflect all our human variations.

    As for hypocritical...For instance were I to say I feel underrepresented or left out because there are no characters with my skin color, that is in and of itself racist.

    Hell, consider some games which contain NO humans. I don't feel any less a part of the world, insulted, or judge the game for lacking diversity that mirrors our real world. See, because the game is Fiction, set in a DIFFERENT WORLD not meant to be a microcosm of OUR world . You ask me, I say the PC mindset of today takes Fiction way too serious and people who insist that everything be realistic or that they are represented should try and relax rather than dream up ulterior motives and slights over things like Baldur's Gate.

    You know, because it's FICTION, and if you're seeing Drizzt as Kunta-Kinta, perhaps you're reading too much into the character.
    Post edited by Google_Calasade on
  • thruddthrudd Member Posts: 96
    Anyone who Starts talking about Race (Black/White ect...) involved in a GAME, yes your playing a game.... its a Game that takes place in a Fictional Place a place of FANTASY, meaning it isn't real.... It supposed to be about having FUN. Yea remember that word, fun? I don't know why people bring politics, race ect.... into a video game it make Absolutely NO sense, if you feel that about BGEE, SOD ect.... its pretty simple don't play them then, I feel Completely opposite of that, in fact I think these Games are FULL of Diverse Characters that are Enjoyable and lovable and find all the BG Games Completely incredible. I will always play and be a fan of the Infinity Engine games, I think we should all take a breath and step back and remember why we play these games, its to have FUN and enjoy it. I think a lot of people are forgetting that.
    Just my opinion of Corse....
    SOD, I'm only a few hours in and I love it Completely I have about 6 groups currently going through it :)
  • woowoovoodoowoowoovoodoo Member Posts: 150
    edited April 2016
    Hello @spacehamzter,
    I am sorry that you are offended by the notion of diversity in Forgotten Realms not being on par with your expectations. I'm sure, nobody meant to offend you.
  • spacehamzterspacehamzter Member Posts: 77
    edited April 2016



    You know, because it's FICTION, and if you're seeing Drizzt as Kunta-Kinta, perhaps you're reading too much into the game.

    I think the most human thing to do is to identify with something
    Post edited by spacehamzter on
  • BillyBroBillyBro Member Posts: 62
    For a black fantasy world, you can play in the continent south of Kara-Tur. It's a desert continent full of genies and such.
  • kanemikanemi Member Posts: 31
    edited April 2016
    Not that this is a contest, but I want to point out that Sarevok, Hexxat, and Valygar were all black, all could join your party, and two of the three were actually voiced by African Americans/Canadians. We poor, poor Asians have to content ourselves with only having poor, poor broken-English speaking, boyfriend abused Tamoko and admittedly fan favorite Yoshimo; even worse, the justification for having Yoshimo even show up was that he was Tamoko's brother, and neither character was actually voiced by an Asian. weep weep

    More seriously, I understand where you are coming from, but also feel that creators are most likely going to create based on things that they have experience with and center in their own lives. Yes, works by 'white people' will largely focus around other 'white people' with 'non-whites' playing only token parts, but that is true of pretty much everyone. Thus, Creed, written and directed by African Americans has no Asians in it, while Snowpiercer, written, directed and produced by Koreans has no one of Middle Eastern descent. This isn't meant to dismiss your concerns, as I certainly respect and understand them, but I do feel a bit leery at blaming any particular ethnic group.

    I am made hopeful, however, by the fact that 'Western society' is becoming more and more progressive, largely as a result of globalization and global representation in works. Gone are the days, for example, of Mickey Rooney playing a Japanese man in Breakfast at Tiffany's or Al Jolson wearing blackface in the Jazz Singer. I have confidence that as people become more aware of concerns such as these coming from different groups, society as a whole will be able to work together to address them.

    Regardless, thank you for bringing up your concerns and I appreciate your comments.
  • BillyBroBillyBro Member Posts: 62
    Sarevok isn't black.
  • kanemikanemi Member Posts: 31
    BillyBro said:

    Sarevok isn't black.

    Isn't he? Looking at his picture from Throne of Bhaal, I assumed that he was a lighter skinned African and I have read comments from others stating the same. If I am wrong, uh, apologies, I guess?
  • GrumGrum Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,100


    Look at his face. He isn't amused at your constant trolling.
  • CoM_SolaufeinCoM_Solaufein Member Posts: 2,606
    Grum said:



    Look at his face. He isn't amused at your constant trolling.

    And he has braids which makes him even more cooler.
  • julialunajulialuna Member Posts: 11
    edited April 2016

    I have to admit with all this talk of diversity I feel kind of left out as a black man. In fact, playing Baldur’s Gate sometimes feels like I am visiting the Rocky Mountains. The higher I go up in levels the whiter it gets. Most if not all the human characters I meet are white in the games. BG1 & BG2 made it a point to have at least one black NPC to make the quota but that just makes it like real life, where a black person is needed to appease the so called “white guilt”. This also brings up another point that I want to make to my gay and transgender friends. Get used to guilty people putting just “one” of you in their games, movies or work place to make themselves feel good. As you noticed the new DLC includes one of each. One black, transgender, gay romance option, and a bisexual option. This makes the point Al Sharpton made when people voted for Obama when he said, “it makes guilty whites feel good”. As a person of diversity all I want is a game where I can see real diversity and not just a quota. Why cant we have several LGBTQ characters in the game and more colored people.
    ***Edit -I took a look at what Ed Greenwood had to say about diversity on his FB page. All I have to say is, I think Eddy has been spending too much time making books for the Adult Section of the bookstore. His emphasis, as I read it, is geared more toward sexual diversity. In contrast, if I had to guess, I would say that 95% of stuff with his name behind involves mostly white characters and white worlds, which to me is hypocritical. Before anyone mentions R. A. Salvator and old Drizzt. As a black man I see Drizzt as the Kunta-Kinta of the Drow who became the Toby for the white races. It’s plain to see the reverse class warfare that the drow brought to the realm. I mean look at the evil black drow who live in the cave and are slave masters. Now, the mighty white High Elves feel justified and are the victims. This is an obvious political statement that almost makes a mockery of black history.

    I would send a message to @David_Gaider , but I didn't (or at least I think I didnt I was sleepy), the message would be something like: "I love Social Justice in games, I hope you and Amber can work that in a new IP, Baldur's Gate carries too much weight for that"

    Well, I post in favor of Beamdog and thus I agree partially with you, I think even one is good enough FOR A TRANS character, but black people are a much larger percentage of the population and they deserved a lot more characters. The problem is that the mythologies that inspire such games are mostly greek and norse, of course there are all kinds but those two are by far the most referenced. In Pen and Paper they went a long way towards inclusion, Pathfinder (DnD 3.5 OGL) even had monster from my country (Brazil) folklore. In PnP there are indians-like, japanese-like, egyptian-like, african-like also gays, crossdressers, transgenders... Videogames however are not that inclusive since material is limited.

    For now games are mostly made by and for the white male, we are slowly walking towards some diversity, I hope people listen to you and put lots of black people in RPGs, I just don't think it is going to be in Baldur's Gate.
  • Graf_WasiliGraf_Wasili Member Posts: 60
    edited April 2016

    In fact, playing Baldur’s Gate sometimes feels like I am visiting the Rocky Mountains. The higher I go up in levels the whiter it gets.

    This made me laugh ^^
    thrudd said:

    its a Game that takes place in a Fictional Place a place of FANTASY, meaning it isn't real....

    Well it's not as easy as this. Most fantasy settings and the FR as well are in many ways designed after our real world, especially when it comes to geography, climate and "cultures".

    As a result there are a lot of chlichés reproduced: We have something like Africa and something like Asia and that's where most of the black/asian looking people are and they have their own cultural thingies. Whith this they are mostly a rip off from our real world, from a western colonial viewpoint. What most fantasy worlds are missing is a believable history of migration and such.

    But in the end it's how you handle the setting. For example in original BG colonization of the Americas was brought up. There was talk of a "New World" and a slaughtering by Flaming Fist soldiers taking place there. I found this one very good.

    A FR adventure taking place in one of the more "exotic" areas of the realms could indeed be interesting. Would be a challenge to avoid said problems and still be believable inside the FR lore.

    I mean look at the evil black drow who live in the cave and are slave masters. Now, the mighty white High Elves feel justified and are the victims. This is an obvious political statement that almost makes a mockery of black history.

    Don't know if it's suppossed to be a political statement. More based on this traditional white=good and black=evil thing creators didn't reflect upon. But I agree that this is maybe the most problematic part of the FR setting in the first place.
    Post edited by Graf_Wasili on
  • RoseweaveRoseweave Member Posts: 101

    What I don't get is people connecting or not connecting with characters because of skin color, sexual orientation, sexual status, etc. Any connecting that involves those is described with a word that ends in "ism" or "ist", so I don't know. To me, this whole thing about diversity is hypocritical and a little ridiculous, expecting a game to reflect all our human variations.

    As for hypocritical...For instance were I to say I feel underrepresented or left out because there are no characters with my skin color, that is in and of itself racist.

    Hell, consider some games which contain NO humans. I don't feel any less a part of the world, insulted, or judge the game for lacking diversity that mirrors our real world. See, because the game is Fiction, set in a DIFFERENT WORLD not meant to be a microcosm of OUR world . You ask me, I say the PC mindset of today takes Fiction way too serious and people who insist that everything be realistic or that they are represented should try and relax rather than dream up ulterior motives and slights over things like Baldur's Gate.

    You know, because it's FICTION, and if you're seeing Drizzt as Kunta-Kinta, perhaps you're reading too much into the character.

    This is completely wrong and let me explain to you why.

    We never ask straight, white cisgender able bodied/minded people to identify with other characters en masse. They are very much centred, especially cis white men in general. So why is it okay to ask a put upon minority to have relate to other characters constantly, but not the privileged group?

    It's not so much about relating to people different to yourself - I mean, most of my characters are PoC and I'm white(I try my best to handle this with care) it's about SEEING yourself in these different worlds. Even things that focus on aliens tend to have a lot of coding.

    What you're describing in your post actually IS an issue. How race is treated in D&D is one of my hang ups with it.
  • Diogenes42Diogenes42 Member Posts: 597
    Consider this friends: why is is so easy to assume the role of a gnome or a half-orc but a real life human can be so much harder for us to understand?
  • Google_CalasadeGoogle_Calasade Member Posts: 80
    edited April 2016
    Roseweave said:

    What I don't get is people connecting or not connecting with characters because of skin color, sexual orientation, sexual status, etc. Any connecting that involves those is described with a word that ends in "ism" or "ist", so I don't know. To me, this whole thing about diversity is hypocritical and a little ridiculous, expecting a game to reflect all our human variations.

    As for hypocritical...For instance were I to say I feel underrepresented or left out because there are no characters with my skin color, that is in and of itself racist.

    Hell, consider some games which contain NO humans. I don't feel any less a part of the world, insulted, or judge the game for lacking diversity that mirrors our real world. See, because the game is Fiction, set in a DIFFERENT WORLD not meant to be a microcosm of OUR world . You ask me, I say the PC mindset of today takes Fiction way too serious and people who insist that everything be realistic or that they are represented should try and relax rather than dream up ulterior motives and slights over things like Baldur's Gate.

    You know, because it's FICTION, and if you're seeing Drizzt as Kunta-Kinta, perhaps you're reading too much into the character.

    This is completely wrong and let me explain to you why.

    We never ask straight, white cisgender able bodied/minded people to identify with other characters en masse. They are very much centred, especially cis white men in general. So why is it okay to ask a put upon minority to have relate to other characters constantly, but not the privileged group?

    It's not so much about relating to people different to yourself - I mean, most of my characters are PoC and I'm white(I try my best to handle this with care) it's about SEEING yourself in these different worlds. Even things that focus on aliens tend to have a lot of coding.

    What you're describing in your post actually IS an issue. How race is treated in D&D is one of my hang ups with it.
    Not wrong. It's my opinion. Opinions are neither right nor wrong. They just are. And yours is assuming there was a conscious intent to make D&D what it is. Whatever people don't like it should find a game which DOES meet their standards rather than trying to force an established product to do so.

    I don't try to see myself in another world, especially roleplaying. Me, I look for characters regardless of who or what they are and stories that interest me. I roleplay the PC according to who THEY are, what drives them, etc. rather than who I am. And I certainly don't go looking for ulterior themes that I might interpret as belittling history.

    Again, it's FICTION.

    There are, by the way, games out there that don't have white people in them. Do I take offense of their absence? Or if white people are represented and represented poorly or negatively? Nope, I like the game if it's good, but don't judge it as to how the setting pertains to our world unless the fictional one is obviously intended to reflect reality.

    D&D, as with a ton of Fantasy worlds, is not intended as such and people need to get over their issues with it or (again) move onto something they don't find insulting or upsetting.
  • Google_CalasadeGoogle_Calasade Member Posts: 80
    edited April 2016



    You know, because it's FICTION, and if you're seeing Drizzt as Kunta-Kinta, perhaps you're reading too much into the game.

    I think the most human thing to do is to identify with something
    What you mentioned is not identifying with a character. It's projecting based on a few, rather weak similarities.
  • spacehamzterspacehamzter Member Posts: 77
    edited April 2016
    "Not wrong. It's my opinion. Opinions are neither right nor wrong. They just are."
    @Google_Calasade so if some of us have opinions that you sound like a "dumb ass" for saying this I want you to be ok with the fact, "they just are". (not saying you are one but if I was it shouldn't matter anyway, at least from your point of view)
  • OzwartOzwart Member Posts: 4
    like your post and it show a fact tat many refuse to see, the argument of diversity was a false one, use by amber scott so she can pretend her little sjw crusade wasnt really one. You clearly show that real diversity isnt there, they just change and add the stuff there little sjw ideology want to see.
    Real diversity isnt just about adding stuff on sexual identity, for me it mean more possibility for the player in choice in their quest, in the people they can meet, in the character they can play, diverse way to get to your objective, to handle a situation or just in how you react to some weird people you meet.
  • RoseweaveRoseweave Member Posts: 101
    edited April 2016

    Roseweave said:

    What I don't get is people connecting or not connecting with characters because of skin color, sexual orientation, sexual status, etc. Any connecting that involves those is described with a word that ends in "ism" or "ist", so I don't know. To me, this whole thing about diversity is hypocritical and a little ridiculous, expecting a game to reflect all our human variations.

    As for hypocritical...For instance were I to say I feel underrepresented or left out because there are no characters with my skin color, that is in and of itself racist.

    Hell, consider some games which contain NO humans. I don't feel any less a part of the world, insulted, or judge the game for lacking diversity that mirrors our real world. See, because the game is Fiction, set in a DIFFERENT WORLD not meant to be a microcosm of OUR world . You ask me, I say the PC mindset of today takes Fiction way too serious and people who insist that everything be realistic or that they are represented should try and relax rather than dream up ulterior motives and slights over things like Baldur's Gate.

    You know, because it's FICTION, and if you're seeing Drizzt as Kunta-Kinta, perhaps you're reading too much into the character.

    This is completely wrong and let me explain to you why.

    We never ask straight, white cisgender able bodied/minded people to identify with other characters en masse. They are very much centred, especially cis white men in general. So why is it okay to ask a put upon minority to have relate to other characters constantly, but not the privileged group?

    It's not so much about relating to people different to yourself - I mean, most of my characters are PoC and I'm white(I try my best to handle this with care) it's about SEEING yourself in these different worlds. Even things that focus on aliens tend to have a lot of coding.

    What you're describing in your post actually IS an issue. How race is treated in D&D is one of my hang ups with it.
    Not wrong. It's my opinion. Opinions are neither right nor wrong. They just are. And yours is assuming there was a conscious intent to make D&D what it is. Whatever people don't like it should find a game which DOES meet their standards rather than trying to force an established product to do so.

    I don't try to see myself in another world, especially roleplaying. Me, I look for characters regardless of who or what they are and stories that interest me. I roleplay the PC according to who THEY are, what drives them, etc. rather than who I am. And I certainly don't go looking for ulterior themes that I might interpret as belittling history.

    Again, it's FICTION.

    There are, by the way, games out there that don't have white people in them. Do I take offense of their absence? Or if white people are represented and represented poorly or negatively? Nope, I like the game if it's good, but don't judge it as to how the setting pertains to our world unless the fictional one is obviously intended to reflect reality.

    D&D, as with a ton of Fantasy worlds, is not intended as such and people need to get over their issues with it or (again) move onto something they don't find insulting or upsetting.
    Opinions can absolutely be wrong. And yours is. Plenty of people including myself will tell you why representation is so important to us. The problem is you've been practically submerged in representation all your life. You've never had a need to see yourself anywhere. You simply assume that you can exist in any given setting.

    It is absolutely true we do not ask cis, het, white men to identify with other characters in the same way we are expected to identify with cis, het, white men by default. You are the default - this is not a subjective observation but statistical fact.

    Whether or not it's fiction is irrelevant. There are countless examples of Muslims in your country working hard as doctors, teachers, inspirational people. But ultimately people still get their conceptions from video games, films and TV shows. Media representation - and by extension fictional media is HUGE, especially when it comes to trans people. When South Park came out with the "Dolphin argument", we had to deal with a decade of that shitty false equivalence hitting us over the head.

    There is a difference between Factual and True. Fiction may not be factual, but it can still be true. Read Caitlin R. Kiernan's the Drowning Girl(which has queer & trans characters), it explains this. An account I have of a transgender character may not be factual. It did not factually happen. But if it's accurate - and it's not dishonest which is the opposite of telling the truth, if it resonates with the real life experiences of trans people - it's true. It's why a lot of Folk Tales survive - they may not be Factual, but they're True.
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