Home (Candlekeep), family (Gorion) and friend (Imoen)

Yorleen

Hello fellow adventurers,

To do a quick introduction: my name's Yorleen, I'm French (so I apologize in advance for the English mistakes in my posts) and I've been a BG fan since 98. I was truely delighted when I learnt about Beamdog and the BG Enhanced Edition a few months ago...

Wanted to add my 2 cents to the list of requests as it's something that's been on my mind for quite a while. I managed to put my hand on an old notepad in which I had written my ideas, quite handy...

(EDIT : I've changed the subject name and have divided it in two parts, since it's not only about Candlekeep now.)



CANDLEKEEP, HOME TO THE PC

My first request is about the following: Candlekeep is the PC's home, the place where he or she has grown up. One thing I always regretted is that I never totally got the "at home" feeling, maybe because some things were lacking, not enough details. I mean I got to like Candlekeep and I like what's been done but simple things may give a better feeling of "immersion".
To compare, when I played the first hours of Dragon Age Origins as an elven mage, this "at home" feeling was more there because of the details, because I got to see where my character got to sleep, got her lessons, the various places where she'd been living so far, because I met a close friend and there was more than just a chat with him...


Ok, back to BG.
We know that the PC's quarters are located inside the library, that some lessons are taken there (and books having the importance they have at Candlekeep, the library's definitely an important place where your character spent probably a lot of time). I wish our character was able to visit the library at the beginning of the game, meet with people he/she knows well and get to discuss a bit more with them (like with Karan, the tutor, for example - currently we only meet him after the PC kills Carbos), that we get to see his/her private room, etc.
Actually, in my mind, the game may have started inside the library as I wrote above. My idea was the following:

The game starts in the library where the PC is supposed to study with Karan but just can't focus on work because of Gorion's behaviour lately (they're sitting together at a table with books)... Karan notices it and asks what is wrong.
Eventually Gorion arrives, begs Karan to leave and explains the PC that they gonna have to leave in the day, etc (what he tells you currently), that he/she has to get the bare essentials, train for group fight, etc, before joining him again.
I thought Gorion might rather be waiting in his quarters, would be more discreet that in front of the library's doors (especially since we wouldn't need the door being blocked).

I had also written a funny dialog between the elders Theodon and Jessup taking place in the library, slightly embarassing the PC (remembering some silly stuff he/she had done in his/her young days), but for now I just can't lay my hands on it... Bummer!


And now some random ideas I had:

- We know there are other young people at Candlekeep, Obe the illusionnist is calling them to give a hand when you train with group fight (Canderous, Osprey...). I had in mind that we could also meet these people outside the Illusionnist's, maybe see some of them grouped at some point close to the Candlekeep Gate, discussing/dreaming about leaving the keep and adventure... I thought Imoen could be with them.


- Imoen would meet you when you go out of the library and have her current chat. Afterwards, she would join the other young people at the doors, in case of joining Winthrop.

- When you meet Winthrop, he asks you if you have seen Imoen as he needs her for the chores (remember, she says he's looking for her). You may either pretend not to have seen her of tell Winthrop she's lost in her dreams of adventure by the gate (works with above idea)... Of course, If you tell Winthrop, she would be a bit unhappy about it lol.
You might also go and get Imoen yourself (that's the nicer way), taking her away from her daydream. I even find this little start of a dialog I had written:

PC: Imoen, I think it is about time for you to join Winthrop, you know the way he is.

I: Yep, you're right, don't wanna have Puff Guts to pull my ears... again!

Then she may speak more of her dream of travelling... (part of the current dialog might come then). She may speak of some places she'd love to visit (and may comment eventually, when you finally get to visit these)...


- From what we learn speaking with people, I got the feeling that the hotel was actually bigger than what we see. I was wondering if a second flour may be added... and doors to the rooms, afair there are not.


- Phlydia would go back to the library once you gave her the book she was looking for.


- One thing I've always been wondering: where do the Candlekeep inhabitants live? I doubt everyone lives in the library underground, some probably live also in the towers. Was wondering if we might visit one of these towers (new addition to good old Candlekeep).


- I suppose Imoen's room is next to the PC's. I suppose the PC might stole something she left in her room, then she would mention it at some point... Might give a funny little brotherly/sisterly argument as she probably sometimes stole from the PC.


- Where does Winthrop gets the food? There might be an ambulant merchant in Candlekeep, selling various food stuff... His car and horse would stand close to the stall. Might spare some infos about the outside world depending on your charisma and the way you speak to him...



AFTER GORION'S DEATH

Another thing that really surprised me and disapointed me in BG1 was the lack of reaction of the PC at the death of his/her foster father... When Imoen comes to you, apoligizing for following you, saying she's so sorry for what happened with Gorion, all the PC asks is how could Imoen know that Gorion and him/her were to leave Candlekeep... Hmm

I know the PC has to hurry up, that it's not safe to stay too close from the slaughter place, but you should be able to react to your foster father's death, in a way matching your character's personality (so various possibilities)... You get a feeling that your character doesn't really care, even though Gorion was like the only family to him/her!

After Gorion's death, the narrator says:
"The dawn is especially cruel this morning. You awake with the realization that you have not been having some horrible dream."

Might be interesting, in case of restarting the game with an already got-up PC in the middle of an open area, to show him/her as he/she lies in a somehow safer place (amidst trees or so), or rather as he/she gets up, and realize it wasn't a bad dream... Imoen might join the shaken PC there and they may have their discussion about what just happened...


------------------------------------------------
To conclude, I will use Lindeblom's words because it sums up perfectly what I have in mind: let's "tighten the connection to Candlekeep and Gorion and to a lesser degree, Imoen" because Candlekeep is home, Gorion is family and Imoen is a friend (ok, more or less close according to the PC you're playing).

(EDIT: I've started a new game with the BG1 NPC Pack mod and there are some very good/interesting new dialogs adding flavour to the game as I wanted. Still, I believe adding a few extra lines right when Imoen meets you in the morning, as the PC awakes after Gorion's death, wouldn't hurt as the basic dialog was untouched. (As well as extra dialogs in Candlekeep.) And as cool as mods are, I would love to see this included in BG EE as canon content...

Tanthalas

Lol, yeah I read it all.

I get what you want, basically you want to see more of the PC's life in Candlekeep before he sets out on his adventure. While that may be interesting, in BG that will probably always be up to the player to imagine (even if the developers weren't restricted in what they are allowed to add to the original story).

The way BG1 currently is, you basically have no restrictions about the details of your past, so the player is allowed to mold the character to whatever they like. If the developers started fiddling with the PC's past, that would limit some of this freedom.

In the end, BG's story is all about what you do after leaving Candlekeep, that's what defines you, not what you did before leaving.

Yorleen

I see what you mean. But actually, my point isn't really to speak about the past (as you said, it's up to our imagination), just add life and depth to the time you get to spend in Candlekeep before running away with Gorion, so to the present: more discussion with the people present in Candlekeep essentially. We know that Karan is a tutor to the PC, we know there are other young people in Candlekeep, we know the PC has his/her room in the library, etc... I mean, I'm not really adding extra informations, just developping them. Sorry, dunno if it's clear. o^^o

Thanks for reading by the way!

Lindeblom

I like this! I have no idea how easy this would be to implement, but I agree that it would be nice to somehow tighten the connection to Candlekeep and Gorion and to a lesser degree, Imoen.
I think I know more about Hull than Gorion...and that is kind of sad when I am supposed to have lived my whole life with him. Maybe part of the "tutorial" could involve him? Or maybe one or two very minor quests in Candlekeep to make it feel more homely.

Yorleen

tighten the connection to Candlekeep and Gorion and to a lesser degree, Imoen.

That's what I would like to see because Candlekeep is home, Gorion is family and Imoen is a friend (more or less close I suppose, according to the PC you want to play).

I think I know more about Hull than Gorion...and that is kind of sad when I am supposed to have lived my whole life with him.

That's exactly the point I wanted to get to...

Seldar

I would like to get access to the first floor of the Library, that should be great too, and add new encounter (Ulraunt for exemple)


french time :

tu vois ce que je veux dire hein

Yorleen

(sorry for offtopic - Haha, nice to meet another fellow froggy)

Yorleen

Actually I wonder if it wouldn't be better to include in this topic my thoughts concerning The PC's and Imoen's (lack of moved) reaction after Gorion's death... It's not about Candlekeep but it's still about the relation with 2 important people. Dunno what you reckon? I might edit the original topic/title and include these.

sarevok57

if you could visit the library in the prologue, would it still be as majestic and full filling when you go back there in chapter 6?

AzL0n

@Yorleen

J'aime tes suggestions.

Imoen definitely needs to be made a little deeper. I don't care if the writers can't touch the existing NPC's, Imoen was a last minute addition she should be an exception to this. At least a few more lines, as it is I don't feel any emotional connection with her whatsoever (In Bg1 that is, I love her in SoA).

Yorleen

Indeed, in BG2 there was this connection because there were deeper dialogs. (To be frank, when I first played BG1 in French, I hated Imoen because the voice they used in French was just horrible and annoying and ruined the character IMO. When I played the English version, this was totally different, I think she had a cool voice.)

As for the library, I don't think it would ruin the fun if you have already visited it, as long as they add new stuff/encounters when you're back. This part of the game when you come back to Candlekeep, meet again everyone (before knowing they're doppleganges) and you think your character has turned nuts was brilliant!

Space_hamster

I always got the impression that since the PC was an orphan, he didn't live a very solid existence in the keep. He probably spent most of his time doing odd menial tasks such as catching rats in the cellar, clearing out the sewers, or studying the dusty tomes in the library. He probably slept in a simple cot under the stairs, scrounging for scraps from winthrop at the pub. Asside from hhis guardian, gorian, he had no knowledge of his bloodline, since he was meant to be under a secret identity to protect him from the EVIL FORCES OF MURDER.

Hence, when Georgian is killed, there is no reason nor imperative to stay in candle keep, the PC is forced outside the walls of sanctuary, and must make their way through the harsh wilderness and FULLFIL THEIR DESTINY. the fact that the PC is relentlessly pursued by assassins the rest of the game also makes any candle keep return all but impossible. The PC would acrylic be better of finding a nice cave on the coast and just laying low till the bad guys cave up on him....though that would make for a boring game eh?

Frankly I dislike the notion that imoen was a blood relative of the PC. I'm one of the sickos who enjoyed the imoen romance mod for bg2

Yorleen

I spoke of Imoen as a friend, not family, since the PC and her ignore they are related in any way at the beginning of BG1. We just know they grew up together, both raised by Gorion, so that kinda create some links generally. Hence more dialogs between the PC and her would be welcome and logical.

I didn't enter the whole "sister" thing on purpose, because it's a different topic and a tricky one (but interesting). In my mind, at the beginning of the game, she's like a sister of heart to the PC, with all the sisterly arguments love/hate it comes with, haha. Though some PC might not get very well along with her as they both age, depending on the PC's character, what is up to the player.
I had started to write some dialogs for Candlekeep from various points of view: a PC going along very well with Imoen, a PC liking her but being easily irritated by her, a PC that came to dislike her and being mean in his/her answer... Saldy they are in French. I'd need to find again this little program making you able to see all the dialog trees from BG...

Yorleen

Checking this page... http://www.forgottenwars.com/bg1/ar2626.htm

I didn't remember the library had so many floors! Assuming the library would be accessible at the beginning of the game, I don't think the PC should be able to access everything at this time, maybe we should just see the ground floor, where I suppose he/she studies. As for Gorion taking the PC to his room to discuss, if we don't want to see the library all the way (it's on the 5th level), the screen might go black a second after he tells you to follow him and then you're in his room (rather than seeing them walking all the way to the room). May be the same way when the discussion is over.

As for the PC's room, does anyone remember on which floor it's located?

I also found this anoted map of Candlekeep on the same website, Dudleyville:

Yorleen

I've just edited the original post to add a part about the PC's (lack of) reaction after Gorion's death.

Lindeblom

if you could visit the library in the prologue, would it still be as majestic and full filling when you go back there in chapter 6?

Maybe not as majestic but even more fulfilling. Can you imagine being chased down and imprisoned by people you know (better).
Also the doppelgangers would be more emotionally powerful if you had a little more connection to the people they have killed.

Yorleen

The feeling would be even worst if we get to know the people better to see them turn against your PC, so as you say even more emotions. I like that!

trinit

mod "check the bodies" had something similar to what you describe. it is a bg2 mod, aimed to put some background to your character (and to give some extra powers). basically you do chores around candlekeep, study with gorion, see imoen etc. (i played it long time ago, maybe i forgot something).

it was nice for the first time. and it immediately became clear to me that i would stab myself if i had to repeat all that childhood, just to get to the adventuring part finally, every time i started a new game.

so yes, MAYBE a little extra text or few interactions wouldn't hurt to expand upon the background, but the real fun starts outside the candlkeep. personally, i would rather not wait for it too long.

on the other note i agree completely on the gorions death. it's got to be the shortest mourning period in history, it almost has comic value. npc mod rounds it nicely though, you and imoen talk a few times about it and you get to express your feelings and set the motivation.

Yorleen

on the other note i agree completely on the gorions death. it's got to be the shortest mourning period in history, it almost has comic value. npc mod rounds it nicely though, you and imoen talk a few times about it and you get to express your feelings and set the motivation.

Lol, yeah... If there's even any mourning from the PC at all! Do you remember in which mod are these discussions between Imoen and the PC?

As for the check the bodies mod, someone told me about it also in the French forum. It's not exactly what I would like to see because I'm not after new chores, I'm more after more discussion, some deeper ones with the persons you're supposed to know the best.

I've just started a new BG1 game (just with the original BG + TotSC so that I can note if there's any bug) and I'm taking notes.

Tanthalas

@Yorleen
I believe those extra interactions between Imoen and the NPC are from the BG1NPC mod.

trinit

@Yorleen- additional talk with imeon was in bg1 npc mod. it includes banters, interjections and romances bringing bg1 npc closer to bg2 npc style.

and also, the link: http://www.gibberlings3.net/bg1npc/index.php

enjoy!

edit: btw, This mod is not actually for Baldur's Gate, but the Baldur's Gate Tutu mod, EasyTutu Mod, or Baldur's Gate Trilogy Mod, which convert BG to be played in the BG2 engine.

Yorleen

Thanks guys

Yorleen

Just played the after Gorion's death so it's even fresher in my mind... The narrator says:
"The dawn is especially cruel this morning.
You awake with the realization that you have not been having some horrible dream."

Might be interesting, in case of restarting the game with an already got up PC in the middle of an open area, to show him/her as he/she lies in a somehow safer place (amidst trees or so), or rather as he/she gets up, and realize it wasn't a bad dream... Imoen might join the shaken PC there and they may have their discussions...

(Concerning mods, I first want to go again through the original BG/TotSC to refresh my mind, see what's lacking, find bugs... But I'll sure give them a try!)

Lindeblom

I don't think the "extra" interactions in Candlekeep should be mandatory, if you want to go to Gorion and say you are ready to leave, the option to do so should still be there.
I am aware that this will slow down the speed of the game and that it is not always desireble, but I am and old man and slow pace suits me

Yorleen

Yeah, I know what you mean. It's already this way, I mean the fact that you can just leave at once if you prefer without doing the mini-quests or talking, so I suppose it should still be up to the player if he/she likes.

As for me, I like to take my time when I play and see all the details

ElectricMonk

so yes, MAYBE a little extra text or few interactions wouldn't hurt to expand upon the background, but the real fun starts outside the candlkeep. personally, i would rather not wait for it too long.

I agree, I feel that being rushed out of candlekeep is an inherent part of the game, and allows the player to feel a sense of urgency. I, too, tried out that check the bodies mod a while back and (for me at least) it definitely didn't make me want to stick around candlekeep any longer. I feel that attempting to create a connection to your home in candlekeep is potentially a futile effort, and is more likely to trivialize the haste and urgency you feel as you're immediately thrust out into to wild.

I do agree that more emphasis should be placed on Gorion's death and I pretty much always install the BG1NPC mod which does the job adequately. I do hope they'll be able to add something along these lines to BG:EE (although I'm pretty sure it would fall into the category of changing original content).

Yorleen

I feel that being rushed out of candlekeep is an inherent part of the game, and allows the player to feel a sense of urgency.

I do agree with this actually. Maybe I'll have to reformat my original post because it may show otherwise, I don't want to change anything about this sense of urgency as you say, as it's something important.

As I said previously, I don't think adding new chores might be a good idea (and I wouldn't like repetitive ones at all). I do think on the other hand that a little more/deeper dialogs with some characters would be a positive thing. I don't mean super long stuff, just giving a little more flavour to people you've known from childhood, because as you said, they were "the only constant things in your life".

My housemate has installed BGT on his computer (so that I can keep my original BG1 + TotSC on my notebook - useful to check the bugs and compare original texts with the ones from mods) and he's gonna install the BG1 NPC mod. Looking forward to test it!

ElectricMonk

@Yorleen Yeah I wouldn't have any problem with a bit more dialogue (and deeper dialogue would be nice) as long as it wasn't too much/didn't take too much time.

Lindeblom

I can understand the sense of urgency, but the protagonist is supposed to have lived there for at least 18 years (depending on race I guess).
I understand the convenience of writing what you know about a or b in Candlekeep, but it can never compete with actually having the experience of meeting the other characters more.
I also understand that I have an unhealthy liking of generally useless things in the game as long as they give me a genuine feeling. I want it to hurt to kill doppelganger this or that, not just see it as another random xp and treasure occasion.
This is not important in the game, but I do love the "non combat non story driving" parts that BG has and I will always encourage more of them.

Zafiro

@Lindeblom, that "unhealthy liking of generally useless things" i find it to be healthy for imagination, and "those who lack imagination cannot imagine what is lacking"; that's the point in "brainstorming", or so it seems to me.
On topic: this reminds me of Candlekeep Chores if anybody had the chance play it.
@trinit, i belive "Check the bodies" has an option to skip the chores.

Yorleen

that "unhealthy liking of generally useless things" i find it to be healthy for imagination, and "those who lack imagination cannot imagine what is lacking"; that's the point in "brainstorming", or so it seems to me.

I agree. These tiny little things, these precious little details, one added to another, can become very important and that's what gives depth to a story.