NPC's in BG2 have different stats than in BG1 Should this change? (Importing Character's Technical)
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If you guys notice a lot of characters in BG2 have stat shifts from BG1, Jaheria, Minsc, Viconia and Edwin....etc.
I did a search and found a thread that sort of talked about this, but it didn't really address it in a gameplay kind of manner, if you played with these NPC's in BG1 and you beat Sarevok / imported into BG2 any tomes you gave your party were saved, but the additional stat buffs the game would give your NPC's wouldn't be enabled. Overall they would be weaker for it.
I think from the start they should have BG2 stats to correct for this so it's not so convoluted. But what do you think?
I did a search and found a thread that sort of talked about this, but it didn't really address it in a gameplay kind of manner, if you played with these NPC's in BG1 and you beat Sarevok / imported into BG2 any tomes you gave your party were saved, but the additional stat buffs the game would give your NPC's wouldn't be enabled. Overall they would be weaker for it.
I think from the start they should have BG2 stats to correct for this so it's not so convoluted. But what do you think?
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I would also want BG1 to use the BG2 stats, mainly for consistency but also because it helps some of the less viable NPCs more useful in BG1.
I honestly don't think any of them need those stat boost in BG1. Most of them are already great.
This throws balance off a little bit -- it makes things easier -- especially in the early game. So on that level, I'm opposed. The original game is, tbh, pretty danged easy and doesn't need to be made easier based on some thin plea towards 'continuity.'
Actually, most of the characters I have problems with end up being killed off or unplayable in BG2 anyway, so it wouldn't help them. I'm more concerned about consistency, and how complicated it would be to program.
In the original game, Jaheira had a 14 DEX, which offers no bonuses. With her BG2 stats, she gets +2 ranged thac0, an additional -3 armor class, and a +2 reaction adjustment. In the first few levels of BG1, that is HUGE. It's the difference between ditching her right after Nashkel (which many people did, back in the day) and making her not only a viable addition to the party but an attractive one for the entire game.
Viconia goes from 15 WIS in BG1 to 18 WIS in BG2. That's an additional divine spell at levels 2, 3, and 4 and another +5 to lore. Again, that's a big edge from midgame through the end, especially if she's your primary healer.
Minsc gains -1 armor, +1 ranged thac0, and a +1 reaction adjustment. A smaller boost, but not inconsequential.
Consider that these boosts are cumalative across the whole party. Without them: Jaheira does less physical damage, mobs take longer to die, Viconia has fewer healing spells, and Minsc's AC is slightly worse so he gets hit more often.
Use SK to revert their stats in your current playthrough. I guarantee you'll notice the difference (even with Edwin, who gains a negligible +1 STR. That's an additional carrying weight of 40 pounds).
It's not about giving the characters a boost; it's about giving all the characters a constant baseline to build upon for BG2.
Another solution might be to, at the start of BG2, simply grant all of the BG1 NPCs a permanent boost to their stats that is comparable to what they receive normally. That way, if you don't use the tomes on your companions, they'll be on par with what they were originally; if you do use the tomes, they'll be just that much more appealing.
My point is that instead of making the PC 'randomly overpowered,' you're intentionally making specific NPCs overpowered.
In your scenario, Viconia could have 21 WIS at the start of BG2. How is that not ridiculous?
The encounters in both games are balanced around the developers assuming NPCs would have stats within a certain range, and have limitations because of that. A +3 here and a +3 there, and you throw off that balance. It's not hard to do, because when you do it, it's noticeable even in starting areas.
This would also make meta gaming not only official, but almost required. Nobody would give an INT tome to Xan, or a WIS tome to Faldorn. Instead, you'd pass them around to characters you knew were in the sequel, whether you actually had them in your party or not. How does that make sense, add to immersion, or lend itself to 'consistency'?
I wouldn't have had a strong opinion on this either way, but last night I set up another Tutu install with mod options that retained the original stats for Jaheira, Viconia, Minsc, and Edwin. And it wasn't until then that I realized how badly I've been cheesing my own games.
Well that, and thinking a lot about balance because Tutu's makes many changes that are arbitrary and erratic, and the balance varies enormously from screen to screen, in a way that wasn't present in the original game.
First: The meta gaming. If you're a cleric, why is Viconia in your party? Why would you give her the tomes? If you wanted to spread out the stat boost, wouldn't it make more sense to take Faldorn and get bonus druid spells? Nobody would do that now, and what's worse, good aligned parties that never invited Viconia anywhere would seek her out just to gift her the tomes because she's in the sequel -- because if you don't do that, you're effectively gimping your SoA run.
Second: The PC is one character who can only do one thing at a time. That's the difference between boosting their stats alone and boosting NPC stats for the entire sequel. A single character with super stats still can't swing a 2hander, cast a heal, and a shoot at range all at the same time, in the same round. But a boosted PC + these 3 NPCs could. That's the difference.
The bonus spells that Viconia gets alone are enough to throw off the balance of some trickier encounters in both games. Further, if you boosted her that high you'd be almost forced to use her for your entire run.
Similarly, if I'm playing a fighter with an 18 Strength and give myself the Strength tome to boost my score to 19, that's no more unbalanced than if I give the tome to Minsc.
The only thing that changes is whether or not the tomes are "remembered" by the engine. Currently they're not; the ability score boosts to the NPCs are arbitrary, intended to fix a balance issue and make them more competitive for BG2 challenges.
So I would love them to have BG2 stats. It wouldn't change that much I think, as you all said it before me:
Viconia would gain a great boost, which is not that bad, considering the lack of supporting evil play.
The +3 DEX for Jaheria is a huge advantage in the early game yes, but 1: she can't use bows to benefit from ranged thac0, and 2: she's not a really good fighter to begin with... at least this way she gets some more survivability.
It's almost the same thing with Minsc. Although he is a decent fighter without the +1 DEX and CON, too, he is still nothing compared to a melee PC with 18/00-18-18
As for Edvin: +1 STR and WIS... Wow... Big whoop...
So as for this issue, I would say that for consistency it would be better to give them BG2 stats. (Jaheria and Edvin (for weight cap) could use it, wouldn't be too OP for Minsc, and Viconia... well, she's the greatest cleric of all time anyway, am I right?
As for the tomes... I would really dig it if the changed stats could be exported to BG2, but there's one little problem which occured to me a couple of months ago (and which @Brude already mentioned): 21 WIS which you could get for Viconia is INSANE
Maybe some people won't like me, but what if we take BG2 stats. Allow stats to be exported into BG2. And reduce the number of WIS tomes. I never understood, why are there 3 of them in BG anyway? (Although I did love them with my fighter/cleric, when I ended up with 22 WIS by the end of ToB
I agree that three is kind of excessive, but I would expect something to be put in their place if two of them were removed.
BG1 has a LOT of NPCs. They managed to balance nearly all of them pretty well (with a few exceptions), so that no NPC was "better than most" or whatnot. *Especially* the fighters. No fighter was good at everything. The closest you have to that is Khalid, but his strength is rather underwhelming, so truly ... let's look at this:
Ajantis - 17/13/16 - Great Strength, good Con, bad Dex.
Coran - 14/20/12 - Epic Dex, okay Strength, bad Con.
Jaheira - 15/14/17 - Great Con, meh Dex, meh Strength
Kagain - 16/12/20 - Epic Con, okay Strength, bad Dex.
Khalid - 15/16/17 - Great Con, good Dex, okay Strength.
Kivan - 18-12/17/14 - Awesome Strength, great Dex, meh Con.
Minsc - 18-93/15/15 - Epic Strength, good Dex, good Con.
Montaron - 16/17/15 - Good Strength, great Dex, good Con.
Shar-Teel - 18-58/17/9 - Awesome Strength, great Dex, bad Con.
Yeslick - 15/12/17 - Great Con, okay Strength, bad Dex.
From this, we can determine that no Fighter NPC is awesome at every stat. Now, we have Khalid pretty rounded; he gets no strength bonus but he can lift plenty of weight to run around in full plate and what-have-you. Also, Minsc is doing good, with awesome strength and light bonuses to Dex and Con. Montaron does okay too, with a light strength bonus, great dexterity, and a light Constitution bonus. But all of those don't particularly stand out from any of the others, don't you think? If we buff Minsc, he will be by *far* the most rounded, and that will just be a shame to the balance BioWare tried so hard to keep. He's already borderline awesome from having the highest strength and mild buffs otherwise, if you bump up Dex and Con it will make him a very obvious choice of "who is the best fighter, overall."
Now Jaheira on the other hand? MAYBE needs a buff. Maybe. But I don't think so. What makes you inclined to have her is that she is a Fighter/Druid, which is a great multi-class. She doesn't need to be buffed when she is unique in that respect. She is already a viable choice, and it would make her far too obvious of a good choice in comparison to other fighters to give her a 17 Dex.
Now onto Viconia. Loses a Constitution point (doesn't matter), and gets an awesome Wisdom buff of +3. Currently in BG1, it is debatable that she is the best Cleric. She shares that argument with Branwen, as Branwen is pretty decent too. People already consider her great. Now, what if we gave her the best Wisdom in the game? Too obviously the best choice of Cleric, enough said. The highest Wisdoms in the game are 16, held by Branwen, Faldorn, Xzar, and Yeslick. People already say Viconia is the best Cleric. If you give her that boost too, it would be too obvious.
These 5 NPCs *needed* the buff to stay viable in Baldur's Gate II, where every NPC has great stats except for Cernd. But in Baldur's Gate 1, they blend in quite nicely with the rest of the NPCs. As such, they blend in with the rest of the NPCs in BG1 with lower stats, and blend in with BGII's NPCs with higher stats. It should stay this way.
Actually, when I started playing BG2 and discovered that all the NPCs were buffed up so much, I didn't like it so much. I would have understood and be fine with, let's say, a point each for old characters (maybe +1 CON to Minsc, +1 DEX to Jaheira, +1 WIS to Viconia, Edwin was fine already but ok with +1 STR and +1 WIS, Imoen was fine already too -- those would have been perfect), and I think they would have been in line with BG2 NPCs.
Plus, I actually find Imoen, in BG1, extremely overpowered, both as a pure thief (DEX 18 and CON 16? Seems like a CHARNAME!) and a thief/mage (those, plus INT 17!)... I would have liked a little less powerful Imoen (like CON 15), so that other thieves (like Alora or Skie - Safana's still too weak, even with STR 13 and CHA 17. But Montaron is fine) or even mages (no way Xan, Dynaheir, Xar or even Edwin are better!) could have been usable too without making the party losing so much edge.
As for exporting tome points... I wouldn't care that much. With stats so greatly buffed up, I wouldn't care for a point more.
That, and I usually use all the tomes on myself, so...
Edwin is a very easy choice for pure Mage too.
This is why I don't want the same to happen to other classes, notably fighters and clerics. By my icon, I clearly love Dorn, but I really do hope he's balanced with the other fighters...
So her abilities being somewhat higher makes retroactive sense.
However, I doubt that they knew what they were going to do with her when they put her into BG1. Everything I've read has said that Imoen was a last-minute addition because they needed a thief that wasn't bananas insane.
In any case, I'd be fine leaving the BG1 NPCs as they are, as long as the tomes can carry over into BG2. There's a thread about it over in Feature Requests: http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/5273/request-clarify-how-stat-changes-and-tomes-will-work-with-bg-ee-game-transfered-to-bg2-ee
I posted my thoughts in greater detail there (along with a solution that I think might make a lot of people happy in general).