Loathe is a wrong word, lets say: very disappointed by the official campaign. Mask of the Betrayer was surprisingly good - i don't remember what was good about it, but i remember i liked it.
I still remember most of PST, BG2 - but almost no memories of NWN 1/2 games. I also somewhat liked Storm of Zehir (another NWN2 game), though many doesn't like it.
And i have to state, i didn't like NWN. Graphically, it was a step back - ugly tiled schematic area art. It was clearly not designed to be a single player game, but as a kind of moddable mmo.
The storyline was well done, but what I liked best about NWN 2 was the diversity of playable characters. Being the leader of a "glorified crew" was a nice fit, I thought, very much like "Ocean's Eleven". Sand and Bishop were the only ones I couldn't get along with but I pretty much managed to woo everybody else.
Edit: But also, I could understand why OP loathed NWN 2. For some reason, I didn't like how the storyline was linear. You'd think there would be plenty to do in the Sword Coast. You couldn't hardly do any minor quest chains, except some really small miscellaneous stuff. To the storyline's credit, you can make alignment-based dialogue choices that would seem to alter some things in the storyline.
In my opinion, Neverwinter Nights 1 was one of the worst games I've ever played. The gameplay itself was solid, but having only 1 party member available killed it. Neverwinter Nights 2 fixed that for me, so I can actually coordinate my party memebers and execute strategies. While the original campaign was average at best, Kingmaker and the other modules were pretty fun, so I guess that's a plus.
Tried playing both Neverwinters, couldn't finish either.
What was up with the camera in NWN2? The game looks like KOTOR and that camera worked just fine, how did they mess that up?
I pretty much quit after the city guard milked me for the eighth favor of the game...just to get into a quarter of the city. Ugh that game was so boring.
That's about where I gave up, too. I might have made it to the "reward" of gaining access to the... thieves? Pirates? Criminals of some sort area of the city. But at that time, my cleric looked like the unholy love child of batman and the joker. The gear I could wear as cleric came in certain colors (and I found nothing like the "dye item" from NWN1) and the combo I had on was so ridicolous, I couldn't see myself playing a game I could not take serious at all. Purple opera style mask, bright blue cape, green armor, what the hell? I have nothing against humor or some silliness, but I want at least the option to play serious characters, too. That plus the overall rather awful look and camera, and the story being not really that compelling to begin with, made me just go back to Might and Magic.
With the comment: "Xor: Neverwinter Nights 2's original campaign isn't exactly remembered fondly by the RPG community. How would Obsidian follow that up? How about making a game with some of the best writing since Planescape: Torment. "
I have played NwN1 to death, both all the campaigns and many modules, for years. And messed around with the toolset and custom content as well as some online gaming.
I still believe NwN2 is the superior game despite it's lack of polish and faults.
No... I mean, I haven't played every mod out there, but I strongly doubt many, if any, of them stand up to MotB. In my opinion, that is one of the top cRPGs published. Probably the best high level campaign. It suffers a lot from using the NwN2 engine, granted, but so would any NwN2 mod campaign.
Then again there's other reasons for playing user made content, I guess. Like persistent servers and such.
Funny, I feel the opposite way when it comes to graphics. NWN1's graphics were horrible, and I couldn't stand the way all male characters had to look like bodybuilders (and all women like supermodels) no matter what class you chose, or how you couldn't have open-faced helmets, or how the mail looked like scale and vice versa. The clothes were horrible too (especially on females!). NWN2's graphics are much nicer - the leather jerkin and mail hauberk look good, as does the scale coat and brigandine (not too sold on the plate harnesses though!), and I've never had a problem with the camera or controls either, it's just a matter of getting used to it. As for why they changed it...that was probably done because a whole community of people railed against the radial menu on the Bioware forum.
Of course, NWN2's weapons also looked horrible, but I've come to accept this as a staple of fantasy games...ordinary realistic looking swords are "mundane" and should be replaced asap, while the better weapons look ridiculously impractical. Every RPG in the world does this, so why should NWN be any different? :pp
NwN1 Cons: -Weaker Toolset. Very limiting -No subraces -No Party control (that's a big one) -Meh Campaigns. Hordes being an exception, being above average -Character creation is very limited, choosing only a head and colors, maybe generic tattoos -Lego graphics. Each joint being obvious, less detailed items and environment
NwN2 Pros: -More powerful Toolset. Fact. You can put tons of detail. -More races, Subraces, classes, prestige classes, feats, spells. -True spellcasting classes that advance casting. -Very unique PWs. Concerning custom content, custom classes and races, mechanics and detail. -Quickcast button. Click F, select spell, cast it. No dragging it to quickslots. -Ton more quickslots. Around 100+, also four quickbars visible at the same time -More involved character creation. More heads, seperate hair, toggle for facial hair, height, weight. -Mask of the Betrayer. It destroys all other NwN1+2 official campaigns. Highlight. -Full party creation with Storm of Zehir. Icewind Dale style. -Autodownloader for PWs. Just wait and all the files you need are downloaded on their own. -Override (and data folders) support subfolders for better organization. -UI can be changed in size, not hardcoded
NwN2 Cons: -Buggy, glitchy. Not so much when fully patched but some are noticeable. -Toolset is a pain to learn and some things need to be done manually -No portraits, but can put your own. -Worse casting animations -No Epic PrCs. I want my epic Assassin and Blackguard *sigh* -No Shifter. One of the most fun classes in NwN1. -Faces are not as good-looking. Thankfully, can be fixed with mods, for NPCs too -Silly "pajama" underwear. -No horse-riding by default but possible on some modules and a PW
I probably forgot a few ones here and there but more or less this is my opinion on the matter. From a person that played both to death. Starting with NwN1.
NwN1 has far less stuff, being more minimalistic and solid. NwN2 has a lot more variety and freedom in most areas but less polish. Also suffered from early release and lack of further updates. Blame Atari.
@FinneousPJ - Actually, I've played some of the user generated content on both games. Thought it was pretty "meh". Hence, why I say that MotB is the only great thing about NWN2. It's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it.
Also, the only reason for the lack of further updates for NWN2 is because Hasbro and Atari went to court over who has the DnD rights, and by the time that was all said and done, Obsidian moved on to other projects. At least, I think that's what happened.
@SapphireIce101 I'm sure you understand playing some of the content isn't enough to judge the entire array of it. You're welcome to your opinion of course, but I'm afraid you're missing out.
The big draw with the NwN games are the toolset and PWs.
What other game let's you create your own DnD adventure, from scratch? And what other game has dedicated RP servers in the DnD setting, run by the people and still being updated?
Sure some MMOs have RP servers but it's a choice there. This is far more involved and immersive.
PWs have RP conflict, politics, factions, guilds, DM adventures, areas that can be destroyed or created based on player action. No monthly pay and no pay-to-win. You want to become powerful, work for it. Some even become mayors or sheriffs or rulers of the cities. I have not seen this anywhere else.
Plus on the Sigil server on NwN2, you can now create vampires, werewolves, talking undead, outsiders, magical beasts, demons, abominations as characters and RP with them.
I will take that over any shallow and polished turd out there.
As everyone said, try Mask of the Betrayer. Sadly, MotB is the only great thing about NWN2. Everything else just seems to be "meh" compared to MotB.
Storm of Zehir is a very nice expansion with an very unlinear adventure (the opposite of NWN/NWN2 OC games). I really love that expansion, but my opinion about SoZ isn't something whole accepted, a lot of ppl like SoZ but a lot of ppl dislike it also. My only criticize to SoZ is the lack of more adventures in that style for NWN2 and the early end of the adventure (an lvl 5 to 30 adventure in that style would be awesome).
I'm a big fan of SoZ as well. I loved that you can create your whole party from scratch, Icewind Dale style and venture forth.
Also Spot/Listen/Hide/Move Silently/Survival skills are of paramount importance. In the other campaigns and many modules they're only good for a few skill checks now and then and to use HiPS for unlimited sneak attacks.
I edited the Campaign settings from the toolset to create 6 party members, instead of 4 + 2 henchmen, and made a party of six drow. Each corresponding to a Dark Seldarine deity and each being a unique matching class. (Cleric of Lolth, Rogue of Vhaeraun, Wizard of Kiaranshalee etc).
There's a custom module that you can take your party from SoZ and continue into epics. It's called Trial and Terror.
I wanted to like NWN2, but I couldn't get past the horrible camera. I fought the camera more than the bad guys, so I quit before ever getting past the damn festival.
I wanted to like NWN2, but I couldn't get past the horrible camera. I fought the camera more than the bad guys, so I quit before ever getting past the damn festival.
The camera isn't so bad, it's a question of adaptation. When i jumped from another game with an different camera control to NWN2 in the past, that's what made my automatic reactions mess with the camera control.
NwN1 Cons: -Weaker Toolset. Very limiting -No subraces -No Party control (that's a big one) -Meh Campaigns. Hordes being an exception, being above average -Character creation is very limited, choosing only a head and colors, maybe generic tattoos -Lego graphics. Each joint being obvious, less detailed items and environment
NwN2 Pros: -More powerful Toolset. Fact. You can put tons of detail. -More races, Subraces, classes, prestige classes, feats, spells. -True spellcasting classes that advance casting. -Very unique PWs. Concerning custom content, custom classes and races, mechanics and detail. -Quickcast button. Click F, select spell, cast it. No dragging it to quickslots. -Ton more quickslots. Around 100+, also four quickbars visible at the same time -More involved character creation. More heads, seperate hair, toggle for facial hair, height, weight. -Mask of the Betrayer. It destroys all other NwN1+2 official campaigns. Highlight. -Full party creation with Storm of Zehir. Icewind Dale style. -Autodownloader for PWs. Just wait and all the files you need are downloaded on their own. -Override (and data folders) support subfolders for better organization. -UI can be changed in size, not hardcoded
NwN2 Cons: -Buggy, glitchy. Not so much when fully patched but some are noticeable. -Toolset is a pain to learn and some things need to be done manually -No portraits, but can put your own. -Worse casting animations -No Epic PrCs. I want my epic Assassin and Blackguard *sigh* -No Shifter. One of the most fun classes in NwN1. -Faces are not as good-looking. Thankfully, can be fixed with mods, for NPCs too -Silly "pajama" underwear. -No horse-riding by default but possible on some modules and a PW
I probably forgot a few ones here and there but more or less this is my opinion on the matter. From a person that played both to death. Starting with NwN1.
NwN1 has far less stuff, being more minimalistic and solid. NwN2 has a lot more variety and freedom in most areas but less polish. Also suffered from early release and lack of further updates. Blame Atari.
@Archaos, I kind of agree with the above, but considering it in terms of my priorities it becomes something like this
I really like NWN2, because it was like BG. BG was the first game I ever played of that style of video game and immediately became my favorite game and game style, and the only ones I've played remotely like it are BG2 and the IWD series and NWN2. Though I disliked the drop of Party Joinable NPCs in IWD.
When NWN1 came out because its the same world, and D&D mechanics, I thought it would be the same style of game so I was really disappointed. But I gave it a shot still and kept playing it, but it had the henchmen instead of a party and other differences, I just didn't like it. However, I never really got into mod content, so I may have had a better experience if I did. But that was largely because I played it on Mac, and the toolkits and stuff were not developed for Mac, and I don't know if mods would even work on the Mac version.
But the developers didn't really give me the opportunity to get into the mod content or even play the expansions (SoU+HotU) anyway, as very soon after the expansions came out (which I bought, but didn't get to play through). The game stopped working as I'm on a Mac, and every couple releases of the OS makes all the software incompatible and they never made a patch to make it run on the new Mac OS which came out the same year I bought the expansions iirc. NWN2 on the other hand did feel like BG and IWD series (and also still works on the newest Mac OS) making it the newest game of that style of game (not counting new editions of the older games) so of course I like it, though I like BG more still.
I don't remember ever having any bugs with NWN2 either, but I played the Mac version so maybe that makes the difference? For the most part the weird things most people say they dislike about the game I either like (Camera after I got use to it, people moving while they're standing around as opposed to statues which they made a mod for, et cetera) or don't care about whatsoever too. I would have played PS:T and PoR:RoMD and other FR and games of the same style as BG if I had known about them at the time but I only heard about those games recently and I have too many new games to get through to risk getting addicted to another old school game.
but the best module for nwn2 was the icewind dale one, someone actually went through the effort of making an entire module that was icewind dale converted to the nwn2 engine, it was AMAZINGLY well done, and i would suggest it to anyone who wants to play the nwn2 game engine with a good game
Sweet, thank you @sarevok57! I was just thinking about going back to NWN2 but to play one of the many mod campaigns I've heard about because I've never tried anything but the main campaign and I'm not super interested in replaying it again. And before that I was planning on starting a new IWD campaign but didn't when I heard about IWDEE. So its like fate. Now I just have to pray to Tempus that it works with the Mac version...
@Darek_Death well if neverwinter nights 2 works on your mac, then i dont see why the ice wind dale module wouldnt ( also it is an acutally made module not necessarily a mod) so yeah give 'er a shot, i enjoyed it, i believe it took the creater like YEARS to make it, and it is quite wonderfully made, it doesnt have any heart of winter stuff in it ( from what i can recall) but it is still well made, and if you are a fan of icewind dale and winter nights 2, you are really going to like that module
NWN 2 is pretty bad. It takes a long, long time till it becomes actually enjoyable.
But Mask of the Betrayer is an absolute master piece, in the Planescape: Torment tier when it comes to the quality of writing. A must play if you like plot driven RPGs.
i didn't mind nwn 2 that much, i thought it was allright, i actually really enjoyed their storm of zehir module, that one i have actually had a few playthroughs of, but to each their own i shappose
Comments
Mask of the Betrayer was surprisingly good - i don't remember what was good about it, but i remember i liked it.
I still remember most of PST, BG2 - but almost no memories of NWN 1/2 games. I also somewhat liked Storm of Zehir (another NWN2 game), though many doesn't like it.
Edit: But also, I could understand why OP loathed NWN 2. For some reason, I didn't like how the storyline was linear. You'd think there would be plenty to do in the Sword Coast. You couldn't hardly do any minor quest chains, except some really small miscellaneous stuff. To the storyline's credit, you can make alignment-based dialogue choices that would seem to alter some things in the storyline.
That plus the overall rather awful look and camera, and the story being not really that compelling to begin with, made me just go back to Might and Magic.
I rest my case.
Also if you're judging NwN2 by it's first campaign, you're scratching the tip of the iceberg.
Even the super elitists of RPG Codex put it at number 12. Based on vote.
http://www.rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=9453
With the comment: "Xor: Neverwinter Nights 2's original campaign isn't exactly remembered fondly by the RPG community. How would Obsidian follow that up? How about making a game with some of the best writing since Planescape: Torment. "
I have played NwN1 to death, both all the campaigns and many modules, for years.
And messed around with the toolset and custom content as well as some online gaming.
I still believe NwN2 is the superior game despite it's lack of polish and faults.
Then again there's other reasons for playing user made content, I guess. Like persistent servers and such.
Of course, NWN2's weapons also looked horrible, but I've come to accept this as a staple of fantasy games...ordinary realistic looking swords are "mundane" and should be replaced asap, while the better weapons look ridiculously impractical. Every RPG in the world does this, so why should NWN be any different? :pp
-Easier toolset
-Epic Prestige Classes
-More modules
-More PWs? (nowadays not sure)
-Beautiful portraits
-More polished
-Better casting chants
NwN1 Cons:
-Weaker Toolset. Very limiting
-No subraces
-No Party control (that's a big one)
-Meh Campaigns. Hordes being an exception, being above average
-Character creation is very limited, choosing only a head and colors, maybe generic tattoos
-Lego graphics. Each joint being obvious, less detailed items and environment
NwN2 Pros:
-More powerful Toolset. Fact. You can put tons of detail.
-More races, Subraces, classes, prestige classes, feats, spells.
-True spellcasting classes that advance casting.
-Very unique PWs. Concerning custom content, custom classes and races, mechanics and detail.
-Quickcast button. Click F, select spell, cast it. No dragging it to quickslots.
-Ton more quickslots. Around 100+, also four quickbars visible at the same time
-More involved character creation. More heads, seperate hair, toggle for facial hair, height, weight.
-Mask of the Betrayer. It destroys all other NwN1+2 official campaigns. Highlight.
-Full party creation with Storm of Zehir. Icewind Dale style.
-Autodownloader for PWs. Just wait and all the files you need are downloaded on their own.
-Override (and data folders) support subfolders for better organization.
-UI can be changed in size, not hardcoded
NwN2 Cons:
-Buggy, glitchy. Not so much when fully patched but some are noticeable.
-Toolset is a pain to learn and some things need to be done manually
-No portraits, but can put your own.
-Worse casting animations
-No Epic PrCs. I want my epic Assassin and Blackguard *sigh*
-No Shifter. One of the most fun classes in NwN1.
-Faces are not as good-looking. Thankfully, can be fixed with mods, for NPCs too
-Silly "pajama" underwear.
-No horse-riding by default but possible on some modules and a PW
I probably forgot a few ones here and there but more or less this is my opinion on the matter.
From a person that played both to death. Starting with NwN1.
NwN1 has far less stuff, being more minimalistic and solid.
NwN2 has a lot more variety and freedom in most areas but less polish.
Also suffered from early release and lack of further updates. Blame Atari.
Also, the only reason for the lack of further updates for NWN2 is because Hasbro and Atari went to court over who has the DnD rights, and by the time that was all said and done, Obsidian moved on to other projects. At least, I think that's what happened.
The big draw with the NwN games are the toolset and PWs.
What other game let's you create your own DnD adventure, from scratch?
And what other game has dedicated RP servers in the DnD setting, run by the people and still being updated?
Sure some MMOs have RP servers but it's a choice there. This is far more involved and immersive.
PWs have RP conflict, politics, factions, guilds, DM adventures, areas that can be destroyed or created based on player action.
No monthly pay and no pay-to-win. You want to become powerful, work for it. Some even become mayors or sheriffs or rulers of the cities.
I have not seen this anywhere else.
Plus on the Sigil server on NwN2, you can now create vampires, werewolves, talking undead, outsiders, magical beasts, demons, abominations as characters and RP with them.
I will take that over any shallow and polished turd out there.
I'm a big fan of SoZ as well. I loved that you can create your whole party from scratch, Icewind Dale style and venture forth.
Also Spot/Listen/Hide/Move Silently/Survival skills are of paramount importance. In the other campaigns and many modules they're only good for a few skill checks now and then and to use HiPS for unlimited sneak attacks.
I edited the Campaign settings from the toolset to create 6 party members, instead of 4 + 2 henchmen, and made a party of six drow. Each corresponding to a Dark Seldarine deity and each being a unique matching class. (Cleric of Lolth, Rogue of Vhaeraun, Wizard of Kiaranshalee etc).
There's a custom module that you can take your party from SoZ and continue into epics. It's called Trial and Terror.
When i jumped from another game with an different camera control to NWN2 in the past, that's what made my automatic reactions mess with the camera control.
NwN1 Pros:
-More and better modules
/thread
NwN2 Pros:
-Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale remakes, with a BG2 + ToB remake coming.
Absolutely impossible with the NwN1 toolset.
/thread
Also a DnD game with no full party control is a huge con.
When NWN1 came out because its the same world, and D&D mechanics, I thought it would be the same style of game so I was really disappointed. But I gave it a shot still and kept playing it, but it had the henchmen instead of a party and other differences, I just didn't like it. However, I never really got into mod content, so I may have had a better experience if I did. But that was largely because I played it on Mac, and the toolkits and stuff were not developed for Mac, and I don't know if mods would even work on the Mac version.
But the developers didn't really give me the opportunity to get into the mod content or even play the expansions (SoU+HotU) anyway, as very soon after the expansions came out (which I bought, but didn't get to play through). The game stopped working as I'm on a Mac, and every couple releases of the OS makes all the software incompatible and they never made a patch to make it run on the new Mac OS which came out the same year I bought the expansions iirc. NWN2 on the other hand did feel like BG and IWD series (and also still works on the newest Mac OS) making it the newest game of that style of game (not counting new editions of the older games) so of course I like it, though I like BG more still.
I don't remember ever having any bugs with NWN2 either, but I played the Mac version so maybe that makes the difference? For the most part the weird things most people say they dislike about the game I either like (Camera after I got use to it, people moving while they're standing around as opposed to statues which they made a mod for, et cetera) or don't care about whatsoever too. I would have played PS:T and PoR:RoMD and other FR and games of the same style as BG if I had known about them at the time but I only heard about those games recently and I have too many new games to get through to risk getting addicted to another old school game. Sweet, thank you @sarevok57! I was just thinking about going back to NWN2 but to play one of the many mod campaigns I've heard about because I've never tried anything but the main campaign and I'm not super interested in replaying it again. And before that I was planning on starting a new IWD campaign but didn't when I heard about IWDEE. So its like fate. Now I just have to pray to Tempus that it works with the Mac version...
But Mask of the Betrayer is an absolute master piece, in the Planescape: Torment tier when it comes to the quality of writing. A must play if you like plot driven RPGs.
Many people have been playing online and various modules for years and didn't bother with the OC, myself included.