Skip to content

Siege of Dragonspear - Truly evil party troubles (spoilers)

Hey guys,

I usually play the good characters, but since I wanted to freshen up my replay of original Baldur's Gate I went with the really evil fighter/mage/thief (think reputation 1-3). Without much trouble I made in into SoD. Then, things started to go downhill.

After the training dungeon, I found out that the only character that would stay in my party was Viconia as every other character was good aligned and even Safana did not want to stay (even neutrals leave at 1, but no big loss with Safana). After essentially soloing the first chapter, the situation improved with Edwin and Baeloth coming on board, but there was serious lack of muscle and tanks (apart from summons). Later I got Dorn which improved things, but I never really found the sixth evil member to my group. (it doesn't help that all of the new companions happen to be good aligned).

Fast forward to the end game, I hit another serious roadblock with the final fight as the boss and Caelar were highly resistant to magic and my mages and cleric generally were pretty much being stuck at hitting the boss with slings (there are only a few +3 bullets for them, so this did not work too great either). Main char and Dorn could get lucky in melee, but could not tank consistently due to relatively high AC and incoming backstabs from Caelar. In the end, I was able to beat the fight, but it was not fun at all.

I understand that evil playthroughs are generally harder than good ones in the BG series, but this was a bit too much. At least give me a sixth semi-useful party member here. I admit I not a particularly good player, so I might have missed something obvious here, but I don't quite understand how evil parties should be played here. God forbid if I wanted to play pure caster as main char, that would pretty much force me out of truly evil and into reputation middle ground due to unplayability otherwise.

Has anyone played through with evil party? What were your impressions of SoD?
zupskyMidoriRathenauJustLeftHalfOrcBeastmaster
«13

Comments

  • AzaghalAzaghal Member Posts: 1
    I had Viconia, Edwin, Baeloth, (2 caster parties are deadly if you can micromanage it) Dorn, and Corwin at my party. Corwin had a helmet of opposite alignment to not whine about my evil deeds and she was a real killer at my party while dorn and vic were tanking to let me backstab foes to eternity. An my character was a rogue. Overall I did not have such problems. SoD was always at ok difficulty even though i played on insane. The only moments I felt the game is unfair were assaults on crusader camps.
    MidoriMortiannaAerakarJustLeft
  • MortiannaMortianna Member Posts: 1,356
    I'm on my second playthrough and decided to take an all-caster approach with my (mostly) evil party: PC LE Necromancer, Viconia, M'Khiin, Safana, Edwin, and Baeloth. Safana is my strongest party member at a whopping 13 STR ^.^

    As of chapter 10, most battles have been heavy on the artillery and light on the infantry. I usually send in Viconia (currently with 97% MR, -11 AC, and the Dread Hammer), and try to have the rest stay in the background and use ranged weapons and cast disabling, damage, or summoning spells at enemies. It's a bit tedious constantly managing spells with all of my "squishy" party members, but I'm also having a lot of fun since it's the opposite of hack-n-slash. I like the variety of having every type of spellcaster in my party.

    As for the reputation issue, Safana and M'Khiin were constantly complaining after I hit 3 early on in the game (even though it was because of M'Khiin that my reputation dropped). I'm currently at 5 after a couple of unintentional reputation rewards and, thankfully, they've been pretty quiet so far. As long as I'm somewhere between 2 and 8, I can live with it.

    I'm curious to find out how the final fight will go, since I don't have a conventional fighter type in my party. My plan is to load up on Lower Resistance spells and hope I can take everyone down before I run out and their durations expire. Otherwise, it'll be a chunkfest.
  • jtthjtth Member Posts: 171
    @Mortianna how do you have Viconia at 97% MR in SoD?
  • Sids1188Sids1188 Member Posts: 165
    edited May 2016
    That's actually a really good idea. I kinda wondered what that character was for. He popped up 3 or 4 times during the story, approached me and then gave exactly the same conversation (including the same insults) every time. Something seemed to be off with him.

    Evil also needs some kind of thief (Safana really doesn't fit 'evil'). Since neutrals will stick around no matter how high your rep, but leave if it's low, it's particularly important that evil NPC's can cover all bases. A fighter/thief can wear heavy armour if you need it more for tanking.

    I think it should be new NPC since of the old ones, Shar-Teel isn't so tanky, and has an awful personality (and if she was changed to remove the sexism she might as well be a new one anyway). And Montaron would bring Xzar, and if there's one thing evil doesn't need it's a mediocre single-classed wizard.
    Azaghal said:

    I had Viconia, Edwin, Baeloth, (2 caster parties are deadly if you can micromanage it) Dorn, and Corwin at my party. Corwin had a helmet of opposite alignment to not whine about my evil deeds and she was a real killer at my party while dorn and vic were tanking to let me backstab foes to eternity. An my character was a rogue. Overall I did not have such problems. SoD was always at ok difficulty even though i played on insane. The only moments I felt the game is unfair were assaults on crusader camps.

    A helm of opposite alignment is a good alternative. Allows an evil party to poach a good npc of their choice. Maybe they could make it available early in SoD too, so that isn't limited to imported parties (and those that cleared Durlag's tower at that).
    Rathenau
  • JurisJuris Member Posts: 113
    An early helm of opposite alignment seems like it'd be the best fix and easy to implement. Good parties could mind-control Viconia ;)
    Rathenau
  • ArcanisArcanis Member Posts: 377
    There is an even more important item missing: The girdle of Masculinity/Feminity.. I'm always forced to Keeper it x_x
    How could Beamdog forget to give you one of the most important items of the enitre game oO

    But yeah, having the helm would allow for some nice excuse to use character of evil alignment, but
    I'm not sure a lawful good character should condone mind control ^^'
  • batoorbatoor Member Posts: 676
    I kept the helm of opposite alignment around just in case there was some easter egg check in whatever dialogue or possible quest with some npc. I had it in a container most of the time though, so that might have prevented any possible check, not saying there is any.

    Still I didn't and wouldn't use it on Corwin or any other npc without the game acknowledging it in some way through dialogue or whatever. And the character would still have the same party banter and interjections through the rest of the game.. Which is downright silly in itself.

    It's a potentially fun item, but there isn't really a use for it...From my point of view.
    Rathenau
  • DhariusDharius Member Posts: 518
    edited May 2016
    There's another thread on this on the forums about this, and I waded in: not sure why anyone would necessarily want or expect six of the same alignment in the expansion but hey... it seems some people are rather passionate about this.

    A possible solution might be to make Tiax a playable NPC as he appears in the early chapters with lines anyway? He could become mutually exclusive with Glint....C/T's are generally very useful in these games as they have all the crucial skills in one character

    Just an idea, and maybe they could extend this to Garrick as an alternative to Vog...not sure about Coran as (at the moment) he and Safana really don't get on.
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636
    Dharius said:

    There's another thread on this on the forums about this, and I waded in: not sure why anyone would necessarily want or expect six of the same alignment in the expansion but hey... it seems some people are rather passionate about this.

    A possible solution might be to make Tiax a playable NPC as he appears in the early chapters with lines anyway? He could become mutually exclusive with Glint....C/T's are generally very useful in these games as they have all the crucial skills in one character

    Just an idea, and maybe they could extend this to Garrick as an alternative to Vog...not sure about Coran as (at the moment) he and Safana really don't get on.

    This sounds like something for mods to do. I don't think it makes sense for the base game to have those NPCs.
  • DhariusDharius Member Posts: 518
    @rapsam2003 True, but it seems like people are asking for more NPCs of some sort...even if I'm personally happy with what there is.
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636
    Dharius said:

    @rapsam2003 True, but it seems like people are asking for more NPCs of some sort...even if I'm personally happy with what there is.

    That's the thing though. People are asking for things are outside the story.
    Dharius
  • DhariusDharius Member Posts: 518
    edited May 2016
    @rapsam2003 Yes, we went through all this on the other thread :) I'm not sure why they can't chuck a few good or neutral characters in there and appreciate that people are what they are ;)
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636
    Dharius said:

    @rapsam2003 Yes, we went through all this on the other thread :) I'm not sure why they can't chuck a few good or neutral characters in there and appreciate that people are what they are ;)

    Because, for some reason, there are people who believe that playing a character with 1 or 2 reputation is actually...fun. I personally think being that kind of asshole is way against the P&P, but whatever.
    Dharius
  • MortiannaMortianna Member Posts: 1,356
    @jtth said:

    @Mortianna how do you have Viconia at 97% MR in SoD?

    Her natural 65% + Cloak of Balduran (+25%) + the new boots of MR (+7%).
    Virelai
  • RathenauRathenau Member Posts: 80

    Because, for some reason, there are people who believe that playing a character with 1 or 2 reputation is actually...fun. I personally think being that kind of asshole is way against the P&P, but whatever.

    Come and see the violence inherent in the system! Help, help, I'm being repressed!

    Mortianna
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    I really like SoD, but I do think there are some issues with the selection of NPCs available, especially evil ones.
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636
    shawne said:

    If SoD puts the only combat-viable Evil NPC halfway through the campaign, and doesn't let you backtrack to solve previous challenges? That is a step backwards. You can rationalize it, you can justify it, you can say it's not a problem for you, that's all well and good. That doesn't change the net outcome of this particular design decision.

    You're forgetting. ToB did the same damn thing. It's NOT a step backwards. (It's also not a step forwards.) The story needs to advance. SoD doesn't need to be a sandbox adventure; it doesn't fit the tone of the story.
    Dharius
  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239

    You're forgetting. ToB did the same damn thing.

    ToB gives you a statue that lets you summon the entire damn NPC pool whether you met them or not. What are you talking about?
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636
    shawne said:

    You're forgetting. ToB did the same damn thing.

    ToB gives you a statue that lets you summon the entire damn NPC pool whether you met them or not. What are you talking about?
    Did you even read what I said? I was talking about how you couldn't really go backwards in terms of story in ToB.
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    edited May 2016
    I don't think the placement of Dorn is an issue - Viconia can tank better than him anyway. It's the lack of evil thieves, and indeed poor thief choice overall (I just don't like Safina), that is an issue. Glint is fine - but I don't want to have him on every playthrough, even if I'm good.
    Rathenau
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    I have been thinking about this, and I have a theory as to why Beamdog repeated Bioware's mistake from BG2.

    There is an underlying assumption of symmetry: a good team can inculde a couple of neutrals, so evil should be able to the same.

    The problem stems from reputation NOT being symmetrical: neutrals will leave a very low rep team in a way that they never will for a very high rep team.

    They added Hexxaat because players had been crying out for an evil thief, but they never really took on board why it mattered so much.
    DhariuskamuizinHalfOrcBeastmaster
  • DhariusDharius Member Posts: 518
    edited May 2016
    I agree with Fardragon (on Hexxat and the rep thing), and definitely not shawne, and not because I want to dismiss negative criticism. :) I do agree with you on the placing of Edwin and Baeloth, though.

    The bias of neutral characters towards good over evil kind of makes sense though...from recent P&P versions, true neutral is no longer complete balance, rather typical humanity, which will tend to favour preserving life and positive structures over damaging/excessively exploiting them. That's what I think...maybe they could refine how neutrals behave though as it's perhaps a bit too basic (and it was changed in the EEs I think...?)

    But how do you address the fact (or perhaps opinion, if you prefer) that rep 1 or 2 shouldn't be easy (i.e. should be actively punished in the game) - what with everyone trying to get at you because you're acting like a raving psycho (i.e. it's not really a viable lifestyle option)? You might not be able to find like-minded folk to join your party because they are similarly being hunted for their behaviour....and most monsters you meet wouldn't want to join you anyway. This limitation is one way of doing it?
    Post edited by Dharius on
  • SedSed Member Posts: 790
    Overall I think SoD is missing good tanks.
    Minsc is descent as a tank, Jaheira better (but she arrives late) but Dorn is glass cannon.

    But I agree that playing Evil almost forces you to play a tanky character, or your party will be pretty lacking.
    Dharius
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636
    Sed said:

    but Dorn is glass cannon.

    What are you doing that Dorn is a glass cannon? Give him better armor. Damn...

  • ZilberZilber Member Posts: 253
    Dharius said:

    I agree with Fardragon (on Hexxat and the rep thing), and definitely not shawne, and not because I want to dismiss negative criticism. :) I do agree with you on the placing of Edwin and Baeloth, though.

    The bias of neutral characters towards good over evil kind of makes sense though...from recent P&P versions, true neutral is no longer complete balance, rather typical humanity, which will tend to favour preserving life and positive structures over damaging/excessively exploiting them. That's what I think...maybe they could refine how neutrals behave though as it's perhaps a bit too basic (and it was changed in the EEs I think...?)

    But how do you address the fact (or perhaps opinion, if you prefer) that rep 1 or 2 shouldn't be easy (i.e. should be actively punished in the game) - what with everyone trying to get at you because you're acting like a raving psycho (i.e. it's not really a viable lifestyle option)? You might not be able to find like-minded folk to join your party because they are similarly being hunted for their behaviour....and most monsters you meet wouldn't want to join you anyway. This limitation is one way of doing it?

    Well, we now have a situation where one character would be leaving for exactly what happens if you take her in.

    If you take on the two drow, the half orc and the goblin, and do no evil deed, one of them will leave.
    Dharius
  • DhariusDharius Member Posts: 518
    Yes, but surrounding yourself with people from races (rightly or wrongly) that are perceived as thoroughly evil by the masses and are usually attacked on sight, does that. M'Khinn herself might be prejudiced against drow, a lot of goblins are because of how they behave in the Underdark.

    It might not be pretty or fair, but the general human populace of Faerun are quite keen on this sort of approach.
    Lore
  • ZilberZilber Member Posts: 253
    I think we're not going to agree on it. Gameplay for evil characters seems added only as an afterthought, throughout the series. Beamdog did a good effort to remedy that, but seems to fail at it in the interlude thry wrote themselves. While good characters have no issue keeping characters like Safana (whose greed might have her challenge a good party leader) and druids (who strive to balance good and evil, and entirely differ from Jaheira that is more neutral good), evil parties have the unique double disadvantage of not being able to find a full party in their alignment, and needing to do good acts to keep the party together after merely recruiting them.

    In summary, evil charaters need to do good to keep a party, good characters not only have no rep increase for aquiring new characters, but no penalty for neutral characters once you get there.

    I can understand the view that evil playthrough should not be reccomended, but Beamdog should include that warning at character creation if that is their view as well. I myself do not agree with that view.
    RathenauHalfOrcBeastmaster
Sign In or Register to comment.