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Siege of Dragonspear - Truly evil party troubles (spoilers)

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  • Sids1188Sids1188 Member Posts: 165
    Sed said:

    Overall I think SoD is missing good tanks.
    Minsc is descent as a tank, Jaheira better (but she arrives late) but Dorn is glass cannon.

    Why the disparity in Minsc and Dorn tanking abilities? Minsc has 1 more con, Dorn has 1 more dex, plus with absorb health, Dorn can heal himself 2hp per level (making up twice as much health as Minsc's con advantage).

    Neither are great tanks. But both are basically the same character, with the same tankiness (though Dorn's class is better as a damage dealer).
  • ZilberZilber Member Posts: 253
    Sids1188 said:

    Sed said:

    Overall I think SoD is missing good tanks.
    Minsc is descent as a tank, Jaheira better (but she arrives late) but Dorn is glass cannon.

    Why the disparity in Minsc and Dorn tanking abilities? Minsc has 1 more con, Dorn has 1 more dex, plus with absorb health, Dorn can heal himself 2hp per level (making up twice as much health as Minsc's con advantage).

    Neither are great tanks. But both are basically the same character, with the same tankiness (though Dorn's class is better as a damage dealer).
    Well, thare are gloves of dex, but not of con. I don't see the problem though, and see no issues keeping Viconia an Dorn as tanks next to my fighter/thief.
  • Sids1188Sids1188 Member Posts: 165
    Zilber said:

    Sids1188 said:

    Sed said:

    Overall I think SoD is missing good tanks.
    Minsc is descent as a tank, Jaheira better (but she arrives late) but Dorn is glass cannon.

    Why the disparity in Minsc and Dorn tanking abilities? Minsc has 1 more con, Dorn has 1 more dex, plus with absorb health, Dorn can heal himself 2hp per level (making up twice as much health as Minsc's con advantage).

    Neither are great tanks. But both are basically the same character, with the same tankiness (though Dorn's class is better as a damage dealer).
    Well, thare are gloves of dex, but not of con. I don't see the problem though, and see no issues keeping Viconia an Dorn as tanks next to my fighter/thief.
    Yeah, at that point it's ok - though being stuck with a 5 person party isn't great. But if instead of a fighter/thief, you had a back liner such as a mage, you'd have Viconia alone for half the game, with just 3 spellcasters backing her up. And probably no thief either if you're reputation is right down. Not the greatest party dynamic.
    Zilber
  • doggydoggy Member Posts: 313
    Just keep your rep acceptable by doing all the quests the right way and in your spare time kill someone innocent to lower it again
    Nomphosumus
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636
    edited May 2016
    shawne said:

    Did you even read what I said? I was talking about how you couldn't really go backwards in terms of story in ToB.

    Now I know you're trolling.
    Bullshit. I'm saying something you don't like or agree with, approaching things from a direction you weren't seeing. THAT does not make me a troll. People use that word way too much.




    Clearly, there's no use even talking to you. You're so pissed off about the fact that Beamdog limited you that you can't even see the story through the trees, so to speak. If not having certain NPCs really ruins SoD for you, then I feel sorry for you. You're missing out on a great story and experiences with (other) great NPCs.
  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
    "Approaching things from a direction I wasn't seeing"? First you hilariously misread my point by making a false comparison to ToB, then you try to derail the conversation by dismissing criticism so you can talk about how great SoD is.

    Tell me more about how you're not trolling. Really, I'm all ears.
  • ZilberZilber Member Posts: 253
    I don't think it's trolling, it might be a vision blind beyond a good/neutral party, but trolling is something else entirely.

    Basically, I do think Beamdog dropped the ball on an evil playthrough, which is odd because they added NPC's just for that style of play, the acknowledgement that an evil thief was needed in BG2 while waving it in the player's faces and taking it away with Tiax in SOD.
    RathenauHalfOrcBeastmaster
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,464
    edited May 2016
    People, take a deep breath and re-read the site rules, please. http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/10852/site-rules-mind-the-gap

    Even if you don't agree with someone, do them the courtesy of addressing that disagreement in a civil manner, or don't address it at all.

    If you think you are being trolled, or if you see someone trolling someone else, please notify a moderator via Report system.

    Also, profanity is not allowed here.
    Post edited by JuliusBorisov on
  • RamiellRamiell Member Posts: 58
    edited May 2016
    I agree evil parties really need more melee characters ( Kegain?). Dorn and Viconia (if you use her as melee) are simply not enough, and Dorn appear so late in the game... If you play any range dps or caster and you want to have all evi party then your options are extremely limited. Not to mention Edwin uses same spells as Baeloth and M'Khiin got same spells as Viconia and Jaheira ( I know that techinically they are different classes but they pretty much use same spells). If you put so many casters in the game surely you could think about some fighter aswell ? All comes down to Khalid and he's wife as they are the only serious candidates for tank spot. Khalid character is good and Jaheira is neutral. Evil tanks? There are none... As someone said before, dwarf who accompany Viconia is just screaming to be made recruitable, he even could be Kegain. I really hope this get addressed soon.
    Post edited by Ramiell on
    SirdentArtonaJurisHalfOrcBeastmaster
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    Baeloth and M'khiin play VERY differently to the other casters.

    But M'khiin will leave if reputation falls to 2, which it might well do when she joins the party.

    If you use summons you really don't need any more tanks. Casters >> fighters.

    A thief? Yeah, one of those you need.
  • SirdentSirdent Member Posts: 45
    Ramiell said:

    As someone said before, dwarf who accompany Viconia is just screaming to be made recruitable, he even could be Kegain, since he appears in BG1 and BG2. I really hope this get addressed soon.

    Yep, give us the dwarf as a dwarven defender and Tiax the multiclassed thief and evil is good to go
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636
    edited May 2016
    Ramiell said:

    As someone said before, dwarf who accompany Viconia is just screaming to be made recruitable, he even could be Kegain, since he appears in BG1 and BG2. I really hope this get addressed soon.

    The dwarf is a deurgar. Kagain is not a deurgar. Korgan is not either. Deurgar are very different than other dwarves.

    http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Duergar
    Artona
  • doggydoggy Member Posts: 313
    I'd rather see an evil thief. In that way you can choose any charname you want the rest will be covered.

    Still a couple more evils wouldn't hurt. So I can play different evil plays that is.
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,703
    edited May 2016
    Well, maybe not to others, but i find evil parties enjoynable. The game has many ways to be played and be kept on good parties or fake good parties only (neutral alignment) is boring.

    In fact i truly think that evil is many times more fun than good.

    The fact some ppl just refuse to roleplay and want to make a copy of what they are (or wish to be) inside Baldur's Gate, doesn't take off the right of ppl that want a complete game in Siege of Dragonspear.


    By my opinion i wish the old NPCs to be left out of the adventure (much because tiax sux in stats terms too).

    Ramiell said:

    As someone said before, dwarf who accompany Viconia is just screaming to be made recruitable, he even could be Kegain, since he appears in BG1 and BG2. I really hope this get addressed soon.

    The dwarf is a deurgar. Kagain is not a deurgar. Korgan is not either. Deurgar are very different than other dwarves.

    http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Duergar
    I can have 2 drows, a goblin, a blackguard and a wizard of thay in my party, but a Duergar no!! It's too much!!
    Rathenau
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636
    kamuizin said:

    I can have 2 drows, a goblin, a blackguard and a wizard of thay in my party, but a Duergar no!! It's too much!!

    That was not my point at all...

    Kagain was mentioned. The dwarf that Viconia was with at the beginning of SoD was a Duergar, therefore the dwarf can NOT be Kagain. On the other hand, if someone wants to create a NPC Mod that adds a Duergar companion, more power to them.
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,703

    kamuizin said:

    I can have 2 drows, a goblin, a blackguard and a wizard of thay in my party, but a Duergar no!! It's too much!!

    That was not my point at all...

    Kagain was mentioned. The dwarf that Viconia was with at the beginning of SoD was a Duergar, therefore the dwarf can NOT be Kagain. On the other hand, if someone wants to create a NPC Mod that adds a Duergar companion, more power to them.
    I'd rather would prefer Beamdog to change the neutrality position in the game, so neutral NPCs either leave the party in 19+ or 2- rep points or don't leave at all.
  • RamiellRamiell Member Posts: 58
    Keigan or Duergar or any other dwarf, it doesn't really matter to me as long as its evil and capable of tanking and appears early in game
  • SirdentSirdent Member Posts: 45

    Kagain was mentioned. The dwarf that Viconia was with at the beginning of SoD was a Duergar, therefore the dwarf can NOT be Kagain. On the other hand, if someone wants to create a NPC Mod that adds a Duergar companion, more power to them.

    Duegar would be interesting, probably (off the top of my head as I dont have any second ed reference in front of me) +1 Con -2 Chr, Immune to poison, psyonics, paralysis i think. Penalty to hit/AC in sunlight, ability to grow in size (+1 strength..i think by innate enlarge spell which game doesnt have) and invisibility
    Artona
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636
    edited May 2016
    Sirdent said:

    Duegar would be interesting, probably (off the top of my head as I dont have any second ed reference in front of me) +1 Con -2 Chr, Immune to poison, psyonics, paralysis i think.

    In 2E, it's always a balance in regards PC races (and NPC races). So, +1 + (-2) is -1. That doesn't equal zero. If you notice, all the other race stat changes in BG1/2/SoD equal out to zero in the end. This is beause the PHB/DMG for 2E set up races in that way.

    It started in 3E where that was no longer the case. The balance in 3E and later editions is different.
    Sirdent said:

    Penalty to hit/AC in sunlight,

    Doable. There are mods which already do this for specific (mod created) NPCs.
    Sirdent said:

    ability to grow in size (+1 strength..i think by innate enlarge spell which game doesnt have) and invisibility

    This could be very overpowered. Say the player creates a 19 STR Duergar (assume they can actually make a Duergar PC, maybe it's a component of some mod). Well, 19 STR is already OP. Then, we add +1 STR for a few rounds. We're at the ridiculous STR of 20 now. That's...bad.
    Artona
  • OUT51D3ROUT51D3R Member Posts: 20
    Mambus said:

    Fast forward to the end game, I hit another serious roadblock with the final fight as the boss and Caelar were highly resistant to magic and my mages and cleric generally were pretty much being stuck at hitting the boss with slings (there are only a few +3 bullets for them, so this did not work too great either). Main char and Dorn could get lucky in melee, but could not tank consistently due to relatively high AC and incoming backstabs from Caelar. In the end, I was able to beat the fight, but it was not fun at all.

    This fight was pretty bad for me as well. I was playing a solo Berserker/Thief. As far as I know, there are -no- +3 weapons of the type I had mastered(dagger) in SOD. I wound up having to use a Longsword +3 with a non-proficiency penalty. Given how high the AC was on the boss, I could hardly hit with it.

    I wound up tricking Caelar into helping me(she has a +3 sword, so can hurt him), then stabbing her in the back afterwards when she ran to release her uncle.
  • AmmarAmmar Member Posts: 1,295

    This could be very overpowered. Say the player creates a 19 STR Duergar (assume they can actually make a Duergar PC, maybe it's a component of some mod). Well, 19 STR is already OP. Then, we add +1 STR for a few rounds. We're at the ridiculous STR of 20 now. That's...bad.

    Not really. Going from 19 to 20 Str is +1 to damage. This is a minor advantage.

    Clerics & PC has Draw Upon Holy Might anyway, which easily allows him to reach >20 Str. Why are you starting to count at 19 anyway, if the premise was the Duergar getting +1 Con (not Str)?
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636
    edited May 2016
    Ammar said:

    Not really. Going from 19 to 20 Str is +1 to damage. This is a minor advantage.

    Clerics & PC has Draw Upon Holy Might anyway, which easily allows him to reach >20 Str.

    Mmm, that's true. Provided that the spell (would have to create a new spell for Duergar only) only lasted a short time, like Draw Upon Holy Might, it's probably fine.
    Ammar said:

    Why are you starting to count at 19 anyway, if the premise was the Duergar getting +1 Con (not Str)?

    I was making a scenario that purposely used bullshit parameters to make a point. However, it's kind of irrelevant now. lol
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    An idea I had for a duergar NPC was to substitute polymorph to a ogre for Enlarge.
  • SirdentSirdent Member Posts: 45
    It might not need to be listed as a spell, the invisibility and enlarge were abilities as per the spell once per day. Beamdog could easily just right it in as an ability rather than a spell.
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636
    Fardragon said:

    An idea I had for a duergar NPC was to substitute polymorph to a ogre for Enlarge.

    That would probably work. For the sake of "looks", the model for ogre may need to be copied and then the copy edited. Then, the "Enlarge" spell would simply need to be edited such that it only gives 1+ Str.
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    I would just fix strength at 18/00. It would be fun to have a giant dwarf sprite, but rather resource heavy.

    I would only use it for an NPC anyway.
  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,307
    edited May 2016
    Mambus said:

    Hey guys,
    ...
    I understand that evil playthroughs are generally harder than good ones in the BG series, but this was a bit too much.
    ...
    Has anyone played through with evil party? What were your impressions of SoD?

    there's no "evil party" in SoD
    the game gives you a rather unsentimental role of an elite military squad leader (you're a commando basically), forces you to be pragmatic (it's better to switch companions - mechanically, in this game, there's no point in soloing or sticking to a set team of six guys) and puts both good and bad characters in the same team: one of people who aren't dumb brainwashed cultists

    my party, 1st run:

    charname - avenger>fighter
    dorn w. Helm of Opposite Alignment (doesn't get hit by holy smite and can wear Ring of Purity) so he was a good guy throughout the whole game
    corwin
    glint
    baeloth
    edwin

    smooth sailing :)

    ...in the final battle dorn basically does everything on his own with his SCUMMY recharged (cheaply!!!) Durlag's Goblet, with Ring of Purity and Ring of the Crusade, damage bonus belt, and some potions of invulnerability, clarity, and fire resistance
    lesser demons are dealt with via sequencer from the lich robe and left for last.
    dispel is a nuisance so champion's strength and greater restoration (scroll) are useful spells because of very short casting time

    basically dorn & caelar are more than enough
  • RathenauRathenau Member Posts: 80
    bob_veng said:

    ...the game gives you a rather unsentimental role of an elite military squad leader (you're a commando basically)...

    I need to stress here that you aren't part of any of the forces in play. You don't get paid, you need to pay for sleeping in an army tent and you don't even get a bedroll! It seems you are a pro bono publico mercenary or camp follower.

    The fact that you are put on public trial as a civilian seems to prove that fact. After all; a commanding officer is responsible for the actions of his subordinates.
  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,307
    what's the relevance of these points? they don't beat the fact that you're in the feet of a soldier, maybe an irregular but who cares. you recieve orders from commanders, go behind enemy lines, fight in battles, lead military squads etc.
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