Riddles.

Orangemoose

Was anyone else really disappointed in the riddles in SoD?
In BG1/2 I think I usually succeeded in every riddle check anyway but I actually had to use my brain.
But for some reason in SoD the riddles seemed to have 1 answer and the rest of the answers were joke answers or really obviously incorrect.
What gives? Did my character's stats effect the answers I was able to give or is BG going down the typical new age video game route and just making everything easier?

Metal_Hurlant

I finished the game but can only recall two riddles but there appears to be three? What's the third one?

Here are the two I recall.

The Menhirs
Thrix

Mortianna

I was pretty underwhelmed by the riddles in SoD. They're a stark contrast to some of the riddles in BG/BG2, especially the genie's riddle in Kalah's tent/palace. They should have made the riddles increase in difficulty according to the difficulty setting.

Orangemoose

Metal_Hurlant said:

I finished the game but can only recall two riddles but there appears to be three? What's the third one?

Here are the two I recall.

The Menhirs
Thrix

I don't believe there is a third one, unless Glint's quests had one. I didn't do that line of quests.

Metal_Hurlant

The achievement says there are three. I don't know where the guy is for the third one.

Menhirs
Thrix
Vidhyadar (Don't recall ever seeing this person)

Orangemoose

Metal_Hurlant said:

The achievement says there are three. I don't know where the guy is for the third one.

Menhirs
Thrix
Vidhyadar (Don't recall ever seeing this person)

Oh I know the third one, I didn't realise the Menhirs were counted as one.

There's a spectacle summon where the Sahuagin are hiding out in the underground river.

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minsc4prez

The riddles were a bit lacking.

xzar_monty

There are two separate things here, both of which are relevant.

1) Creating good riddles is definitely not easy. You need a good writer who probably also needs to be good at math. If you don't have one, what you can then do is study the riddles that are already there and create a variation on one (you're almost certainly going to do it anyway, whether you know it or not, but doing it knowingly is perfectly acceptable). But in any case, it's not easy.

2) Giving the answer by choosing from a number of options is likely to be a giveaway - it is extremely difficult to create a riddle that you couldn't reverse-engineer if you already know the possible answers. If you were given a blank space in which to type your answer, things would be totally different.

The best riddle in the BG series that I have seen was the genie in the circus tent one. I was very impressed by that and really had to get down and work it out.

namenlos

BG1 with the Nashkell Guard Captain Quest... I dunno, super easy but then I'd over think it, you know " [The Answer] is way to obvious they're messin with me. heh

Zanso

I agree: SOD riddles were way too easy. BG2 riddles were imaginative and hard. However, not everyone likes hard riddles The idea of riddles becoming harder with difficulty would be cool, and I think that actually could be implemented in a infinity engine game.

Samuel

@Orangemoose

"

Oh I know the third one, I didn't realise the Menhirs were counted as one.
"

perhaps it was bugged but the first time I didn't get a riddle, during my second playthrough the stone's reacted differently, both not hurting charname as well as posing one riddle and summoning a golem.

Arsene_Lupin

xzar_monty said:

Creating good riddles is definitely not easy. You need a good writer who probably also needs to be good at math.

Disagree strongly. A riddle is a language problem... not a math problem. It always irritates the hell out of me when I see a riddle in a game, because I get excited (riddles are fun!) and then it turns out to be a math problem instead.

xzar_monty

I don't think a riddle, by definition, excludes math. I get your point, though.

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Avenger_teambg

I disliked the math riddle in bg2. I would like a riddle where you actually have to type in your answer.

Sceptenar

The math riddle in BG2 is kind of ridiculous, I'm an engineer and quite good at math naturally, but I have trouble solving that one. The reality is that it can't be solved, you can only get a ratio and have to pick the correct answer based on that ratio. I don't know why they put it in there though, the math required is far too difficult for most people. Most people just end up save scumming or looking up the answer.

Tenrecc

"What is the beginning of eternity, the end of time and space, the beginning of every end, and the end of every place?"

Only infinite engine riddle I really liked. Not sure why people are fond if the baldur's gate ones. I mean, I can understand one or two or so, but there are quite many in the game all together, and the game system really isn't well suited for asking and answering riddles. And no, the math one isn't really a riddle, just a challenge.

elminster

"A princess is as old as the prince will be when the princess is twice as old as the prince was when the princess' age was half the sum of their current ages."

The only way I'd support including another math riddle like this (not that I have any say over these things since I don't) is if it was done in a way that a character with high intelligence could provide an answer where it was clear that they had thought it out and were sure.

So it would be like

"A princess is as old as the prince will be when the princess is twice as old as the prince was when the princess' age was half the sum of their current ages."

1) (Intelligence 16+) "Well lets see, the princess must be 3/4 of the age of the prince. So I'm going to say the Prince is 30 and the princess is 40"

2) (Intelligence 9+) "Hmm....well the prince has to be older than the princess. I'm going to guess that the prince is 30 and the princess is 40."

3) (Intelligence 9+) "Hmm....well the princess has to be older than the prince. I'm going to guess that the prince is 40 and the princess is 30."

4) The prince is 20 and the princess is 30

5) The prince is 30 and the princess is 40

6) The prince is 40 and the princess is 30

7) The prince is 30 and the princess is 20.

8) They are both the same age.

9) I don't know.

10) (Intelligence less than 7) Me head hurts.

cloudkillbeatsall

@elminster
But that leaves no challenge for the players. Kalah's riddle wasn't that bad, by the way. If you answered wrongly, you got an easier riddle.

elminster

I hardly see how it leaves no challenge for players. In this case unless you have 16+ intelligence (and only player characters who are a bard or mage are ever going to bother having intelligence that high) you still have to work for the answer (and the two 9 answers could be 12+ as well, I just used 9 since its the threshold for literacy). But characters who have really high intelligence should be given a leg up here (and again I'm only talking about math riddles like this).

cloudkillbeatsall

Well, having the requisite attribute means you don't have to think at all. And if you have a character with a low intelligence score, shouldn't you be forced to choose the wrong answer? That's not consistent, to my mind.

Also, if you did make it so intelligence mattered, it doesn't make sense to me that only the attributes of the person who triggered the dialogue would be taken into account. I think the other characters would interrupt and say, the correct answer is such and such.

elminster

It results in a better balance between your characters ability and your own personal ability. Having all the answers still be available regardless of intelligence just means that players who want to sit down and figure it out still can.

Standard for BG is that dialog stat checks are based on the player character. Its odd I'll admit, but that is just how it is.

namenlos

That system has been implemented in other games and I've really enjoyed the addition. With the lack of skill checks and NWPs in BG it would be nice(in my opinion) if there were more uses for abilities.
Even with a high strength score I had trouble busting open locks and had to bring a thief(or maybe I just had a thief and did not try to force it) or use knock(almost forgot that) making a high strength score just a combat thing with few other applications(for me). Oh! it would be cool to have Dexterity options as well; "16 Dex: You snatch [Item} from his hands." . Constitution is used regularly though I never notice it since it is so passive. Guess I'm kinda expanding a little on your attribute comment and am now off topic >.<

Mathsorcerer

Riddles are always the hardest part of game design (or dungeon design, if you are the DM). Make them too easy and there is no challenge; make them too difficult and the result is frustration. I remember in Bard's Tale I having to map the third level of Mangar's Tower where you couldn't see anything--no, seriously, in that game there were "darkness" squares where you couldn't see where you were going or what direction you were pointing--while having to look for seven different words to put into the correct sequence to be able to go up to the fourth level. In Bard's Tale II if you didn't map this one level correctly you wouldn't see that the walls formed letters in the corners and you wouldn't be able to advance in the game.

Old standards such as "you see two doors with guardians in front of them. one guardian always tells the truth and the other one always lies. one door leads to victory and the other door leads to instant death. you may ask only one question of the guardians." are too easy because everyone knows the answer. Riddles such as this:

you meet two gnomes. one of them tells you "my brother and I are more than two centuries old but not three centuries old yet. right now I am six times as old as he was when I was five times as old as he was when I was four times as old as he was when I was three times as old as he was. how old are we?"

are far too difficult. You also have to make certain that you aren't using "real world" knowledge in your riddles--if the characters in the game couldn't possibly know a piece of information then it can't be in the question or the answer.

Avenger_teambg

Tenrecc said:

"What is the beginning of eternity, the end of time and space, the beginning of every end, and the end of every place?"

Only infinite engine riddle I really liked. Not sure why people are fond if the baldur's gate ones. I mean, I can understand one or two or so, but there are quite many in the game all together, and the game system really isn't well suited for asking and answering riddles. And no, the math one isn't really a riddle, just a challenge.

Alright, but how do you make a localization of that into 5+ languages.

Wise_Grimwald

Orangemoose said:

Metal_Hurlant said:

The achievement says there are three. I don't know where the guy is for the third one.
Oh I know the third one, I didn't realise the Menhirs were counted as one.

I don't think that the Menhirs could possibly be counted as a riddle unless it's for a five year old.

Wise_Grimwald

@Arsene_Lupin I actually prefer the maths problems as the riddles are usually far too simple. Also a maths problem is equally difficult whatever the gamer's language. Not so with language problems. A lot of riddles don't translate into other languages as they are based on word-play.

@Mathsorcerer The thing to do is make the riddles help you considerably, but not make them vital.

That way you can make them quite difficult. The riddle in the circus in BG2 is like that. If you can't do it, you can still play the game. They could even have made that one a bit harder IMO.

Avenger_teambg said:I disliked the math riddle in bg2. I would like a riddle where you actually have to type in your answer.

That could and should have been done. They had only needed to ask for one of the ages.

MonoCanalla

What can change the nature of a man?

PS: I hope that it is because I have't sleep well or at all and I was in a 5:30am call at work in a freezing day by the water, but I kind of felt stupid with the riddle of the price and the princess. Is it normal?

Skatan

I don't mind easy riddles and I don't mind hard riddles, what I do mind is if that riddle is the only way to solve whatever I am trying to solve. Let's say I am a violent bruiser character and I encounter a frail being asking me a riddle to let me pass, what would I do? Would I stand there nervously trying to reply using my CHARNAME's five brain cells or would I bash that being into oblivion with my huge mallet and then brush the corpse to the side and pass anyways?

Riddles are only well implemented if they are well implemented, no matter the actual difficulty of the riddle. I don't think there's a "best" way to implement riddles in games since they all, at least all I can remember seeing in games, rely on you, the player's, intelligence/smarts and not your characters. Thus, the riddle is in itself a failure game mechanics wise unless you play a smart character who can be argued to be roughly exactly similar as your human form behind the keyboard.

So, since it's almost impossible (?) to do this is a good way (or at least have been in the game I've played) I just go with the flow and accept any and all riddles just the way they are. I CBA to bother too much, and some of them can be fairly funny for me in flesh space, no matter the charname I am playing.