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Bards

DreamingViksDreamingViks Member Posts: 87
I am thinking to start a new game with my PC as a bard, I have not played BG for years and I was never very good at it. I am wondering, are bards really that bad? I did try to use Garrick but I found him rather worthless.

Will this hold true even if I make my PC a bard?
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Comments

  • ShinShin Member Posts: 2,344
    No, Garrick is often regarded as an unusually incapable character. Properly planned and kitted a bard can be very effective.
  • neleotheszeneleothesze Member Posts: 231
    edited October 2012
    A PC bard can be pretty fun. You get to cast spells @ higher caster level than mages (because bards level as fast as thieves), you can invest into dexterity and use more damaging ranged weapons than slings, having a pickpocket spares you the trouble of putting points on your thief if you want to grab those few goodies scattered around people's pockets and even though a simple bard is not as OP as a blade for example, he's still very a versatile character.

    Garrick has 13 int and 16 dex... with a PC just pick your stats better and wham, a pretty fun char. :)

    The greatest advantage comes in BG2... you get mage spells and thief HLA(UAI and Spike Traps ftw) with none of the xp division of being a multiclass thief/mage.
    Post edited by neleothesze on
  • ryuken87ryuken87 Member Posts: 563
    edited October 2012
    Generally bards have been underpowered in the BG series the NPC bards in BG1 both have quite horrid stats so they aren't very good. However, the Jester kit (using the Tutu or Trilogy mods) is quite powerful in BG1 as enemies have poor saves and are susceptable to his song. In BG2 the Blade is also good in a tank role.

    A vanilla bard in BG1 is perfectly viable, but he's going to be like a F/M only worse. He will have pickpocketing and his song (neither very useful) but also a lower thac0, lower HP, slightly fewer spells per level and fewer attacks.
  • neleotheszeneleothesze Member Posts: 231
    edited October 2012
    @ryuken87 A F/M can reach lvl 7/7 in BG1 with ToSC iirc. A bard can reach level 10. That's makes for a more powerful Fireball for example.
    Compare it to a single class mage: faster leveling means more powerful spells early on; fewer spell slots but better thac0 and more HP and more varied weapon choices.
  • ShinShin Member Posts: 2,344
    Well, it gets sort of tricky to compare a pure class to a combined one. A fighter mage dual class will pretty much always be more effective than a single class mage as well.
  • AdulAdul Member Posts: 2,002
    I have a bit of a habit of starting bards in Baldur's Gate, and I find them generally a bit harder than most classes, especially early on. They are fun to play, though. Needless to say bards are more useful in full groups than in small ones or solo. Just grab an auto-bardsong script from somewhere and you're good to go.
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,853
    A PC Bard is an excellent choice in Baldur's Gate. There's good mages, one of which will be better than you no matter what you do; loads of good fighters, loads of great thieves, and pretty decent clerics ... but there aren't any good bards. Don't get me wrong, you can *make* Eldoth and Garrick good if you work your ass off, but making a PC Bard is probably a good choice.
  • CaptRoryCaptRory Member Posts: 1,660
    All classes are equally squishy for the first couple levels. Then all the differences start to really come out.

    Bards being more generalist make a great fifth or sixth character and let your other characters focus even more strongly on their own strengths. Like, identifying items so mages don't need to use identify all the time. Or being the Pick Pockets guy so the thief can dump all his points into Locks and Traps without missing anything. Bards can step up and help in melee and still use bows to help bring down stuff with volleys of fire. Their magic grows rather rapidly because they level so fast, and they can use it to buff their own combat ability. Plus, if I recall, there are a number of bard only items in the game.

    Bards aren't specialized so there is some weakness there. But they're far from being Spoony Bards.
  • revaarrevaar Member Posts: 160
    On a similar topic, what will be the best Bard kit for the lower levels in BG:EE? It seems like blade is best at higher levels in TOB, but Skald's improved song doesn't really kick until later as well (I'm not that interested in jester to be honest).
  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,300
    edited October 2012
    On a tactical point of view: You're gonna have high lore, be able to use good weapons , advancing faster means your dispel magic , magic missiles and whatsoever will be more deadly/effective . You're also able to use wands and nearly every other item in the game.

    On a roleplaying point of view: You start basically as an artist who eventually learns how to fight and cast spells - cool enough!
    revaar said:

    Skald's improved song doesn't really kick until later as well

    Bard song is a nice skill, but doing nothing for the sake of playing a song doesn't sound that fun to me.

  • KosonKoson Member Posts: 284
    @revaar Pick the one you like best to have the most fun while playing. Probably the Skald is more powerful early on with his improved song buffing the party / summons, but he won't be doing anything else while singing.
  • AdulAdul Member Posts: 2,002
    It's shameless self-plug, but I have a "chanter" bard kit up on the SHS website. In essence it's a bard with several different bardsong abilities (kinda like IWD2), and with cleric spells instead of mage spells. I've been told by some people that it's overpowered, while others thought it was more or less balanced.

    It works in BGT and Tutu, but I have no idea whether it will work off the bat in BG:EE. My guess is it won't.
  • CaptRoryCaptRory Member Posts: 1,660
    edited October 2012
    Another nice thing about making a Bard PC is that, he has a number of options to stay out of a fight and enough HP and AC to take a few hits if he has to. Bardic Music isn't great but, it's another option to pitch in and do something from the back ranks. "Oh! Well, I can't hurt that ooze... and it's magic immune... I can use my bard song!"
  • sandmanCCLsandmanCCL Member Posts: 1,389
    edited October 2012
    revaar said:

    On a similar topic, what will be the best Bard kit for the lower levels in BG:EE? It seems like blade is best at higher levels in TOB, but Skald's improved song doesn't really kick until later as well (I'm not that interested in jester to be honest).

    Skald song is amazing from the get-go. By the time it improves again on itself, you're near epic levels and improved bard song is still better than the higher ranks of skald song.

    But even at level 1, +2 hit/damage and AC bonus for the ENTIRE party? Absolutely amazing. I would argue that ability is probably 3rd on the totem of "will totally unbalance the game" with Totemic Druid spirit animals and Shapeshifter werewolf form being the others.

    Skalds are amazing and probably the best to utilize as a "caster" out of the 3 kits. Jester might not always want to be signing, and a Blade is certainly more comfortable hitting things with sticks, but a Skald will want his song on whenever he's not actively casting spells. Just something to think about.
  • Space_hamsterSpace_hamster Member Posts: 950
    The Blade kit comes into its own (with special abilities) in BGII, though I'm sure at later levels in BGI it would be powerful as well. This kit is also great for dual wielders.
  • JaxsbudgieJaxsbudgie Member Posts: 600
    edited October 2012
    Also BG:EE now has some elven chain mail thrown in, perfect for a Bard! (and no I'm not talking about Drizzt's armour!)

    I played a Skald once, with a melee heavy party (purposefully) in both BG1 and BG2, got pretty boring, nothing was really that challenging!

    Tip: use the mod Level 1 NPCs to make Safana a Bard, and lo and behold she is the best Bard in the game! (the same could be said for many NPCs to be honest ... such as *rolls eyes* ... Imoen)
  • AdulAdul Member Posts: 2,002

    Also BG:EE now has some elven chain mail thrown in, perfect for a Bard!

    Huh, they really said that? That's pretty cool, I suppose. I'm not sure what to think though, it really makes bards and fighter/mages that much powerful.
  • BrudeBrude Member Posts: 560
    Tip: use the mod Level 1 NPCs to make Safana a Bard, and lo and behold she is the best Bard in the game! (the same could be said for many NPCs to be honest ... such as *rolls eyes* ... Imoen)
    I used that mod to change the stats of the existing Bard NPCs.

    I gave Garrick roughly the same stats as Imoen (but -1 on each attribute save STR) and I gave Eldoth the same stats as Haer'Daelis from BG2. It worked out well, but I think I might nerf them both a little bit. (Garrick especially is a little bit too useful now, especially if the PC is a thief.)
  • Roller12Roller12 Member Posts: 437
    HLA/Skald bard song is quite hax. The bard itself is not, since he cant do anything else while singing. A shame really, since he has quite a bit of interesting abilities. In Iwd2 he can both sing and fight.
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,853
    Adul said:

    Also BG:EE now has some elven chain mail thrown in, perfect for a Bard!

    Huh, they really said that? That's pretty cool, I suppose. I'm not sure what to think though, it really makes bards and fighter/mages that much powerful.
    Yes they added some Elven Chain, it was in the Reddit AMAA.

    Tip: use the mod Level 1 NPCs to make Safana a Bard, and lo and behold she is the best Bard in the game! (the same could be said for many NPCs to be honest ... such as *rolls eyes* ... Imoen)

    I'mma have fun with kitting the NPCs when BG:EE mods come out. Safana will definitely be a Swashbuckler.
  • sandmanCCLsandmanCCL Member Posts: 1,389
    Adul said:

    Also BG:EE now has some elven chain mail thrown in, perfect for a Bard!

    Huh, they really said that? That's pretty cool, I suppose. I'm not sure what to think though, it really makes bards and fighter/mages that much powerful.
    It helps bards. It doesn't help Fighter/Mages much. If it's a non-magical Elven Chain, it's only got AC5 as is. Robes of the Arch-Magi also do that.
  • JaxsbudgieJaxsbudgie Member Posts: 600
    edited October 2012
    Quartz said:

    I'mma have fun with kitting the NPCs when BG:EE mods come out. Safana will definitely be a Swashbuckler.

    I definitely remember modding Safana into a Swashbuckler once, as nice as the idea is, she wasn't a very effective one! Her strength offers no bonuses to melee and her constitution is paltry so she isn't great at taking blows (but can probably give some though, amiright guys?!). Suppose the best way is to put the two ** Swashbucklers get into daggers (as they can't specialise is ranged weapons) and make her use throwing daggers with a buckler - even fits her portrait well. Then perhaps give her the strength enhancing gauntlets you come across later on and drop that buckler for a second dagger with an added *** in two-weapon fighting. With the shadow armour and stealth boots, she could be a decent scout, and with the dagger of venom (of which I hope they've changed into a dagger not small sword as Tutu accidentally overlooked) she could be a nice stealth backstabbing mage take down-er. The dexterity tome should probably go to her as well, plus any dexterity boosting items I don't know of (I know mods like Item Revisions and Rogue Rebalancing addedin a lot of useful thief / dex items).


    I'm definitely doing this now!
  • KaxonKaxon Member Posts: 156
    Those of you who say Blades come into their own in BG2... isn't their THAC0 a big liability for a melee fighter? Blade THAC0 tops out at 10 while Fighter/Ranger/Paladin/Barbarian/Monk get 0 at level 21. Offensive Spin only gives you +2, and the other classes have weapon specialization, so the blade is still at a 9 point deficit. Playing a blade sounds fun but I'm not seeing how they can really be that great in the late game.
  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,300
    Kaxon said:

    Those of you who say Blades come into their own in BG2... isn't their THAC0 a big liability for a melee fighter? Blade THAC0 tops out at 10 while Fighter/Ranger/Paladin/Barbarian/Monk get 0 at level 21. Offensive Spin only gives you +2, and the other classes have weapon specialization, so the blade is still at a 9 point deficit. Playing a blade sounds fun but I'm not seeing how they can really be that great in the late game.

    Rogue Thac0 topping at10 is just a tragic mistake , I always unerf it!
  • EvinfuiltEvinfuilt Member Posts: 505
    Kaxon said:

    Those of you who say Blades come into their own in BG2... isn't their THAC0 a big liability for a melee fighter? Blade THAC0 tops out at 10 while Fighter/Ranger/Paladin/Barbarian/Monk get 0 at level 21. Offensive Spin only gives you +2, and the other classes have weapon specialization, so the blade is still at a 9 point deficit. Playing a blade sounds fun but I'm not seeing how they can really be that great in the late game.

    Tenser's Transformation, it's THE buff that makes a Blade the best.
  • randyroorandyroo Member Posts: 54
    i really like the skald early party but their extra ability seems so pointless at the end when every other bard class gains improved bard song. i may as well just choose the blade.
  • DragonspearDragonspear Member Posts: 1,838
    @RandyRoo

    That's true that they suffer late game, but you also have to get to late game. I don't feel Blade's start coming into their own until Late Ch. 2 in SoA (level 13ish), while a Skald is useful from level 1. Moreover a Blade can't get Enhanced Bard Song until at LEAST level 22, which is late SOA unless you're soloing.
  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,300

    @RandyRoo

    That's true that they suffer late game, but you also have to get to late game. I don't feel Blade's start coming into their own until Late Ch. 2 in SoA (level 13ish), while a Skald is useful from level 1. Moreover a Blade can't get Enhanced Bard Song until at LEAST level 22, which is late SOA unless you're soloing.

    Is it really fun for the protagonist to do nothing while he plays a song?
  • ajwzajwz Member Posts: 4,122
    Evinfuilt said:

    Kaxon said:

    Those of you who say Blades come into their own in BG2... isn't their THAC0 a big liability for a melee fighter? Blade THAC0 tops out at 10 while Fighter/Ranger/Paladin/Barbarian/Monk get 0 at level 21. Offensive Spin only gives you +2, and the other classes have weapon specialization, so the blade is still at a 9 point deficit. Playing a blade sounds fun but I'm not seeing how they can really be that great in the late game.

    Tenser's Transformation, it's THE buff that makes a Blade the best.
    Well, I'd say that title goes to stoneskin :3
  • DragonspearDragonspear Member Posts: 1,838
    edited October 2012
    @DJKajuru

    For a pacifist protagonist maybe.

    Oh god, someone's going to do a Pacifist PC run now. I can feel it "My PC will never cast a harmful spell or use a weapon throughout the entire saga."
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