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Use improvements from “Spell Revisions”

AntonAnton Member, Moderator, Mobile Tester Posts: 513
(Reddit request by kutovy)

A lot of spells in BG1-2 have bugs, and low-level spells become completely ineffective once characters reach higher levels. I think there is a lot to be learned from “Spell Revisions” mod for BGEE’s benefit.
http://www.gibberlings3.net/readmes/readme-spell_rev.html
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Comments

  • AntonAnton Member, Moderator, Mobile Tester Posts: 513
    Comments from Reddit:

    [–]MrManlyMan1 1 point 1 day ago
    'Spell Revisions' is quite the mod. Would we want this added as 'core' changes?

    [–]kutovy[S] 1 point 1 day ago
    Why these improvements should be integrated into BGEE?
    - It (Spell Revision mod) fixes a lot of bugs. Some spells work not as they are supposed to work according to their description.
    - It improves weaker spells (like healing spells and summons) and nerf overpowered ones (like Horrid Wilting).
    - Adds scaling features to many spells that became useless when we reach high levels.
    - Improves the descriptions of many spells to be more accurate and more consistent.
    - Adds a small number of spells to the game.

    [–]kutovy[S] 1 point 23 hours ago
    Perhaps some part (bugfixes and improved description) should be integrated by default and other part (spell "improvements" and "balancing") - should be optional feature in Advanced Settings.

    [–]Gilthas 2 points 18 hours ago
    I agree.
    Bugfixes and improved descriptions should be added by default to the game.
    The spell improvements and balancing should be an optional feature.
  • ArdanisArdanis Member Posts: 1,736
    Original BG game, let alone BG2 and ToB, is not a great example of closely following DnD rules either. Therefore it is mainly vanilla BG house rules vs SR's house rules, not being astray from DnD. In fact, SR v4 is going to bring it closer to PnP.

    That said, the Spell Revisions mod is not in it's final state yet, and so it would have been including an intermediate version - which imo is not a wise choice.
  • BhryaenBhryaen Member Posts: 2,874
    edited May 2012
    SR is a very ambitious mod. I agree that it's not in a state to just dump into BGEE, but I also agree with Tanthalas that the spell bugfixes and description corrections would be very good to address anyway- and addressed as such (bugfixes) rather than as an added feature. SR goes a long way toward that as I recall. It might even be a good idea to post a thread ONLY for the SR bugfixes in the Bugfixes forum Category. Better to list them specifically too if you can to make it easier for the devs to delineate for themselves.

    Because the rest is indeed more a matter of setting new "house rules" rather than making BGEE closer to DnD (which WotC who is part of the approval process will probably prefer), and isn't even fully worked out yet, it might just be safer to leave it out for modding purposes alone. SR's scope is fairly wide, addressing all spells of the game plus some related stuff. That said, I've usually just modded in the whole works hehe... plus the latest hotfix since it tends to need one...
  • AndreaColomboAndreaColombo Member Posts: 5,530
    I believe Galactygon's Spellpack mod does bring spells closer to their P&P counterparts.

    I do agree that spells require a revision, and I personally would like it to be as compliant with P&P rules as possible - then again, I am notoriously a rules-lawyer.
  • technophobetechnophobe Member Posts: 68
    Just fix what BW intended. SR is permanently under construction; none of its iterations are even 90% bug-free. They keep moving up in versions without getting a playable version out. Unfinished mods shouldn't even be considered for inclusion.
  • lansounetlansounet Member Posts: 1,182
    BG games were complete and bug-free on release! Breaking news
  • AntonAnton Member, Moderator, Mobile Tester Posts: 513
    ...tons of things we did should be, as the original BG spells were full of bugs, incorrect behaviours, inconsistencies, missing features, etc..
    Definitely agreed.


  • technophobetechnophobe Member Posts: 68
    I track all criticism of my 'mod'.
    What version is playable? You stop fixing a version by moving on to the next one. You break the current version by reworking major parts of old versions. You use that it's still in progress as an excuse for both new and old bugs. There are many bug-free mods; errors aren't implicitly unavoidable, so don't insult other modders just because SR is fickle and directionless.
  • CameronToferCameronTofer Administrator, Developer Posts: 279

    Anyway, as Ardanis says, SR is not a perfect candidate for becoming part of BGEE for various reasons, but tons of things we did should be, as the original BG spells were full of bugs, incorrect behaviours, inconsistencies, missing features, etc..

    Last but not least even if SR is hugely more closer to PnP than vanilla BG (yes it is) Galactygon's Spellpack is even more true to it, as AndreaColombo correctly points out. Thus if the only goal is to be 100% true to AD&D, SP is a better choice over SR.

    Would it be possible to list the bugs and the potential solutions SR and SP address and submit this in the Bug category. The more we organize this stuff into things we can completely agree on the more I can get into the build.
  • lansounetlansounet Member Posts: 1,182
    @Technophobe
    I have to agree with Demi here, SR v3.1 is closest you can get to a final version of a mod and I can only find 1 reported bug that seems legit about haste and improved haste.
  • AndreaColomboAndreaColombo Member Posts: 5,530
    I'm bumping this thread 'cause I'm very interested in Demivrgvs and Galactygon potentially working with Cameron toward the fixing of bugs and inconsistencies, as well as addressing missing features in spells for BG:EE.
  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    Hopefully @Demivrgvs or Galactygon (is he posting here?) noticed Cameron's request.
  • AndreaColomboAndreaColombo Member Posts: 5,530
    Yes, @Galactygon does have an account on these boards and will probably be notified that I mentioned him in this thread ;-)
  • AliteriAliteri Member Posts: 308
    @Tanthalas

    Perhaps someone could get a hold of Galactygon at Spellhold or someplace else?
  • BhryaenBhryaen Member Posts: 2,874
    I sure hope this happens. Modders weigh into my dreams of a future BG as much as BGEE devs...
  • AndreaColomboAndreaColombo Member Posts: 5,530
    ^ Same here. I'm really hoping for spell fixes to be implemented, either from SR or SP, or (ideally) both.
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,704
    My onlys spell problem is the imprisonment incompatibility with the infinite enginy that make the game recognize the spell as death status, and wrost, make it while remove the person from the party (a recipe to f*** any romance).

    Solve that and i will be happy.

    I understand that exist other bugs as the spell inefective result of trying to cast a summon spell inside a globe of invulnerability (except if the level of the summon spell is higher than the globe). but the imprisonment bug is a critical problem, the rest can be solved with time in patchs or dlcs.
  • DemivrgvsDemivrgvs Member Posts: 315
    My onlys spell problem is the imprisonment incompatibility with the infinite enginy that make the game recognize the spell as death status, and wrost, make it while remove the person from the party (a recipe to f*** any romance).

    Solve that and i will be happy.
    Just so you know SR do offer a workaround to this, replacing Imprisonment with a semi-permanent Maze. No end game if charname is affected, no romance break, no party break. :) That being said, fixing the original opcode for BGEE would indeed be better.
    I understand that exist other bugs as the spell inefective result of trying to cast a summon spell inside a globe of invulnerability (except if the level of the summon spell is higher than the globe).
    This instead is completely fixed within SR (I actually think even Fixpack did this). It's one of those subtle fixes which involved changing the "power lvl" of a spell's effects (in this case setting them to 0).
  • ArdanisArdanis Member Posts: 1,736
    My onlys spell problem is the imprisonment incompatibility with the infinite enginy that make the game recognize the spell as death status, and wrost, make it while remove the person from the party (a recipe to f*** any romance).

    Solve that and i will be happy.
    I should warn, however, that Imprisonment and Petrification remove the target from party on purpose - otherwise it would be impossible for survivors to leave the area ("You must gather your party before venturing forth"), if they possess no means to reverse the effect of those spells.

    While joinable NPCs can still be kicked out manually, it is not - and can not be - possible to do with the protagonist, who must remain alive and talkable to avoid breaking plot-related scripts and dialogs.

    Therefore, if a solution were to be found, it also has to attend the possibility of carrying the affected party member into other area, as well as a way for the game to progress if PC is incapacitated in a permanent fashion.

    Various mods offer solutions for this, with the "be on your guard" written between the lines, but I won't make claims it is acceptable for the official version of game.

    Unless BGEE will deal with it in way later party-based RPGs do, by dropping the "dead" character unconscious until the end of encounter, I am not optimistic is can be done. Great caution is advised, anyway.
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,704
    @Ardanis if the BG:EE change the death response to inprisonment and freeze the NPC script while imprisoned or petrified, that would at least save the game from broken romaces or quest relative scripts, i don't think it's a so hard thing to be done, even because they're changing the original infinite engine, but i'm no programmer so i'll not sustain a solid position in this, after all i'm speculating here.
  • BhryaenBhryaen Member Posts: 2,874
    If the reason for the romance/ party status break on Petrification/ Imprisonment is some party-dependent variable, can it not just be decoupled somehow, allowing the scripts to persist while the affected party member's portrait is removed (or just hidden or stored somewhere)? Petrification/ Imprisonment would have to be converted into a condition rather than an end. Gah, how awful. When Imoen got released from Petrification in my last game after rediscovering her in a travel encounter area, there was much rejoicing, but if it had been a romanced NPC it would've been a lot more traumatic apparently...
    Would it be possible to list the bugs and the potential solutions SR and SP address and submit this in the Bug category...
    Mmm...I don't know if I can easily track down everything that has been done in all these years... I never kept a full change-log for descriptions (shame on me) thus tracking "fixes" for descriptions is almost surely going to be harder.

    Anyway, I'll look into it and let you know.
    If a peasant like me can help in any way with basic searches through material or taking basic "what SR fixed/ what SR did to fix it" info and converting it to BGEE Forum grist for the Cammachetemachinemill, just let me know. The Spell Revisions fixes are so plentiful, maybe I can reduce the tedium tasks or the like. Anyway, just an offer! :-)

  • AndreaColomboAndreaColombo Member Posts: 5,530
    If a peasant like me can help in any way with basic searches through material or taking basic "what SR fixed/ what SR did to fix it" info and converting it to BGEE Forum grist for the Cammachetemachinemill, just let me know. The Spell Revisions fixes are so plentiful, maybe I can reduce the tedium tasks or the like. Anyway, just an offer! :-)
    I would gladly volunteer for this as well, should the help of two peasants be required :-)
  • DemivrgvsDemivrgvs Member Posts: 315
    @Bhryaen and @AndreaColombo you're welcome, feel free to directly post at BGEE developers or at me, in the latter case I'll add your list to mine so that we can hopefully write down a list of fixes as complete as possible. :)
  • AndreaColomboAndreaColombo Member Posts: 5,530
    @Demivrgvs I'll be PMming you over The Gibberlings Three about this. My nickname on that forum is Andrea C.
  • TauronTauron Member Posts: 22
    What about spells like magic missile, melfs acid arrow and firearrow or was it firebolt...as you progress in lvls you gain more of those. Sometimes it is usefull to cast 1 or 2 of those at seperate targets. So having default option to cast all at one target and other to pick 2 or more targets, depending on how many you have left.
  • JonelethIrenicusJonelethIrenicus Member Posts: 157
    Correct me if I am wrong but if I remember then NWN had feats like example "Maximize spell" and "Quicken spell" and how about using something like that to improve the most unused spells.
  • AntonAnton Member, Moderator, Mobile Tester Posts: 513
    edited August 2012
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