about Dorn (complain mermer)

PsycheTang

Notice : Not so good in English. pardon me.






(space for spoiler)






For good guy team, Dorn is a annoying character!
Not saying that He is a bad character nor unreasonable drama, just unfit for good legion!
(yup! I knew, It's Vexatious )

I was so expecting for EE cause there's half-orc male NPC,even romance with it!
Imagionation of a strong Half-human guy with cool attitude, and shelter PC in front of party making me exciting.
So I bought BGEE&BG2EE on steam, for passing my Breaking-up with some guy.

Well... in BGEE,Dorn has a good story, indeed.
Betray by companions(lover) even near death making he no choice but contract with fiend.It make sense.
Revenge is acceptable for me.
Though I'm nearly a Chaotic Good guy,(whether in game or reality) in Dorn's situation, I want revenge too!
So even he's a evil character, I can accept him with my contingent.
(Though in bgee, Dorn do less evil things)

When I start to think he is a lovely one, I goes in BG2EE.
NO~~~ why I just met you in bg2ee, I have to kill somebody innocent!
It's none acceptable for me! in that moment I just want kick him out,things goes worst!
not kill someone,kill them All ! ON Wedding ! Oh my godness!
Even I know that is his fiend lord force him do this, I just feel sad, obtain more power make him more mad in murder.
but so far I came here to get romance with him... drama make me no choice either.
I just pass out as soon as possible, and take Dorn alway.
Well... romance with Dorn is not bad actually.
Within I knew a little farther drama, I knew Dorn has a chance slating his fiend,
I think thing maybe goes right, even party will lose a powerfull fighter, i do not care,
BUT ! resently I read a sentence that even I make Dorn became a fallen blackguard,
there is no goodend for him with PC.
hmm.... reasonable but lost.

I start to think about making a mod for turning the drama,
But It is too difficult in making it reasonable and Smoothly.
Especially on saving the knight away from first murder in bg2ee, hardly be true.
With Dorn's development of personality in that time, there's no thing but power & joy for slator.
He feel just a little wonder, not guilty, but doubt too many murder making him tired.
It's hard to save him, just wait him rush to cliff and knows to turn back,but too late.

Well... I can say Dorn is a successful evil character for real.
But I just has more expect for him.

p.s.: there's mod for Dorn I found, can there be a better end with Dorn I wonder?
https://github.com/trinit2/Bg2Dorn

lunar

My sentiments, exactly. In bg1 he was sympathetic, with a revenge motive. In bg2 he is downright monstrous and if you rp a good pc there is no way you can accept his initial mission when he matter-of-factly says he puts women and children to sword for lols.

JuliusBorisov

The mod you mention is by @trinit , check https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/47294/mod-dorn-romance-expansion-for-bgii-ee#latest for its discussion.

PsycheTang

bengoshi said:

The mod you mention is by @trinit , check https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/47294/mod-dorn-romance-expansion-for-bgii-ee#latest for its discussion.

yup. I looked. thx.
In reply, seems there no end-changing in mod.
In other words if I want to make it diffrient , have to do it by my own(faint).
Almost impossible to me.
maybe I should try the sarovok romance mod.

rapsam2003

lunar said:

My sentiments, exactly. In bg1 he was sympathetic, with a revenge motive. In bg2 he is downright monstrous and if you rp a good pc there is no way you can accept his initial mission when he matter-of-factly says he puts women and children to sword for lols.

He is a Blackguard. The description of Blackguards varies by edition, but in 3.5 edition (iirc, the first edition that officially had them) it was:

A blackguard epitomizes evil. He is nothing short of a mortal fiend, a black knight with the foulest sort of reputation. A blackguard is an evil villain of the first order, equivalent in power to the righteous paladin, but devoted to the powers of darkness. [...]

Above quote from the Neverwinter Nights 2 manual.


In short, if you thought Dorn was going to be a "nice" guy...then you didn't understand what Blackguards are. They're never the nice guy. They serve darkness, plain and simple. We're talking Darth Vader kind of guy. We're talking Emperor Paplatine. Blackguards are meant to be bad freakin' news! They leave destruction and pain and despair in their wake, which kind of...doesn't bode well for those who romance them. It all makes sense to me. He's thoroughly evil and fairly comfortable with it, really.

jackjack

Vader isn't the best example for obvious reasons, but everything else @rapsam2003 said is spot on.

rapsam2003

jackjack said:

Vader isn't the best example for obvious reasons, but everything else @rapsam2003 said is spot on.

Vader did wantonly slaughter innocents in Episode 3 (killed the younglings at the Jedi Temple), when he chose to fully embrace the Sith. Yes, he was redeemed at the end of Return of the Jedi; but I think that example still fits.

jackjack

I don't consider episodes I-III canon, but that's my issue, not anyone else's. No argument that Vader was evil.

Arunsun

I find it great that we finally have a truly evil NPC. Dorn in BG2 is evil for the sake of being evil and that's unique. But while you can fit Viccy in about any party, this is a lot harder to do with Dorn indeed.
That's what one calls roleplay I guess

MrGuse

jackjack said:

I don't consider episodes I-III canon, but that's my issue, not anyone else's. No argument that Vader was evil.

What are you talking about? There were only 3 Star Wars movies.

PsycheTang

rapsam2003 said:

lunar said:

In short, if you thought Dorn was going to be a "nice" guy...then you didn't understand what Blackguards are. They're never the nice guy. They serve darkness, plain and simple. We're talking Darth Vader kind of guy. We're talking Emperor Paplatine. Blackguards are meant to be bad freakin' news! They leave destruction and pain and despair in their wake, which kind of...doesn't bode well for those who romance them. It all makes sense to me. He's thoroughly evil and fairly comfortable with it, really.

oh yes I understand really.
As I say Dorn is a success evil character.
in path times,he is not a kind person in primary.
and if he had a kind heart,he gonna die in prison because no power
And there's hard to find a way let him good,exactly he doesn't matter it at all even if he knew the badend i guess.
To be good maybe a very bad idea for him.
And there are too many nice guy in BG2 need not pluse another.
These all make it successful.

I just feel not so well because of my personality.
And maybe too many expecting for a half-orc

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

MacHurto

i would argue in D&D you can be evil for the sake of being evil. Demons/devils, etc. Ramsay Bolton too.

In any case, you are right. Dorn is not evil to be evil. Dorn is evil to get more power and because he has absolutely no morals regarding how to get it. That makes him evil. With Charname's help he can realise that power is not as important as freedom and stop being a blackguard. One could think that it is the first step on his way to redemption but, of course, those pesky good guys have to meddle and off you go to invade a plane of Goodness for more butchery.

Oh, he is also a murdering psychopath but unfortunately that applies to Charname too regardless of his alignment, so not a good argument here

rapsam2003

MacHurto said:

Oh, he is also a murdering psychopath but unfortunately that applies to Charname too regardless of his alignment, so not a good argument here

Psychopath implies he is neither 1) coerced OR 2) provoked. He is both in various parts of his storyline in BG2.

UnderstandMouseMagic

I think what the OP is saying is that in BG he comes across as a somewhat sympathetic character, betrayal ect., but in BG2 jumps the shark when it comes to being evil.

So, OK, Charname was "fooled" by him in BG. That doesn't make it satisfying to take him through BG2. I usually play "neutral" but found Dorn in BG2 more dumb and tiresome than anything else. Disappointing.

The sheer amount of murder if you take Dorn makes no sense when Charname has far more pressing matters to deal with, so for me, it feels like Dorn takes over the story to a ridiculous degree.
Though that's the problem with all the new NPC's, far too much in the way of solving their quests which doesn't really fit the main narrative.

I never use any of them for that reason.

rapsam2003

UnderstandMouseMagic said:

The sheer amount of murder if you take Dorn makes no sense when Charname has far more pressing matters to deal with, so for me, it feels like Dorn takes over the story to a ridiculous degree.
Though that's the problem with all the new NPC's, far too much in the way of solving their quests which doesn't really fit the main narrative.

Let's compare Jaheira's Harper questline to the EE NPCs. (Note that said questline can be done without romancing her, but does tie in with her romace.) You spend all this time dealing with the Harpers and helping Jaheira through the tragedy of her husband's death. Tell me, how does that directly serve the story? It doesn't. It's a set of side quests. It ties into the story, but it doesn't advance the main quest in any way.

By contrast, how is having the EE character's questlines do the same a problem?!

UnderstandMouseMagic

rapsam2003 said:

UnderstandMouseMagic said:

The sheer amount of murder if you take Dorn makes no sense when Charname has far more pressing matters to deal with, so for me, it feels like Dorn takes over the story to a ridiculous degree.
Though that's the problem with all the new NPC's, far too much in the way of solving their quests which doesn't really fit the main narrative.

Let's compare Jaheira's Harper questline to the EE NPCs. (Note that said questline can be done without romancing her, but does tie in with her romace.) You spend all this time dealing with the Harpers and helping Jaheira through the tragedy of her husband's death. Tell me, how does that directly serve the story? It doesn't. It's a set of side quests. It ties into the story, but it doesn't advance the main quest in any way.

By contrast, how is having the EE character's questlines do the same a problem?!

I never deal with "the Harpers and helping Jaheira through the tragedy of her husband's death" because I never take the cow with me.

I think writing "so for me" makes it entirely clear that I am speaking for myself.

rapsam2003

UnderstandMouseMagic said:

I never deal with "the Harpers and helping Jaheira through the tragedy of her husband's death" because I never take the cow with me.

I think writing "so for me" makes it entirely clear that I am speaking for myself.

That's great, but it doesn't detract from my main point. And you didn't answer the question...although you kind of did, just in a very indirect way.

megamike15

all the party member quests have nothing to do with the main plot. heck by your logic all of chapter 2 is filler as your just doing side quest to gather money to get to the main plot.

rapsam2003

megamike15 said:

all the party member quests have nothing to do with the main plot.

Yes, you got the point, young padawan.

megamike15 said:

heck by your logic all of chapter 2 is filler as you're just doing side quest to gather money to get to the main plot.

It kind of is. All of the quests that aid you in gathering money are optional side quests that directly feed into the main quest. The only main quest in that whole deal is "Gather 30,000 gold to buy the license".
Does that make them any less fun for some folks? No. I, personally, enjoy the hell out of every one of those quests. Does it give other players the option to only do as few side quests as is required to get the gold? Yes, it does. Using the Ch2 example, one can pick any combination of the side quests. Once you have the gold, the rest is just gravy.