So, like the Sorcerer, the Shaman doesn't have a casting stat?

PugPug

I see in the description that Wisdom does not give the class bonus spells. Is there any reason to have it above 3? Is spell failure chance implemented?

Abi_Dalzim

I think 12 is the minimum requirement for the class, but yeah, there's no real reason to have it any higher than that.

rapsam2003

Well, sorcerers don't get new spells based on their casting stat (which is CHA), but CHA gives its own (arguably big) advantages. The Shaman casting stat (WIS) also doesn't grant new spells based on how much WIS you have; but, again, there's advantages to having higher WIS. See here for all the advantages and disadvantages that your character can have based on stats: http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Character_Ability_Scores

Abi_Dalzim

rapsam2003 said:

Well, sorcerers don't get new spells based on their casting stat (which is CHA), but CHA gives its own (arguably big) advantages. The Shaman casting stat (WIS) also doesn't grant new spells based on how much WIS you have; but, again, there's advantages to having higher WIS. See here for all the advantages and disadvantages that your character can have based on stats: http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Character_Ability_Scores

Wait, wait, wait. What's that Spell Failure table refer to? You don't just have arbitrary spell failures when you dump Wisdom, do you?

PaulGreystoke

Abi_Dalzim said:

rapsam2003 said:

Well, sorcerers don't get new spells based on their casting stat (which is CHA), but CHA gives its own (arguably big) advantages. The Shaman casting stat (WIS) also doesn't grant new spells based on how much WIS you have; but, again, there's advantages to having higher WIS. See here for all the advantages and disadvantages that your character can have based on stats: http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Character_Ability_Scores

Wait, wait, wait. What's that Spell Failure table refer to? You don't just have arbitrary spell failures when you dump Wisdom, do you?

No. Spell failure for low wisdom was not implemented in vanilla BG, nor has it been added by the Enhanced Edition.

Abi_Dalzim

PaulGreystoke said:

No. Spell failure for low wisdom was not implemented in vanilla BG, nor has it been added by the Enhanced Edition.

Well, shamans don't get good lore anyways, so yeah, no reason to raise Wisdom over 12.

rapsam2003

Abi_Dalzim said:

PaulGreystoke said:

No. Spell failure for low wisdom was not implemented in vanilla BG, nor has it been added by the Enhanced Edition.

Well, shamans don't get good lore anyways, so yeah, no reason to raise Wisdom over 12.

I mean...there is, but it's more for RP reasons. /shrug

Jarrakul

There's no mechanical reason for a shaman to have a wisdom over 12. There's a roleplaying reason for any decision you could possibly make, but it's up to you if you care about roleplaying reasons, so do whatever floats your boat.

rapsam2003

Jarrakul said:

There's no mechanical reason for a shaman to have a wisdom over 12. There's a roleplaying reason for any decision you could possibly make, but it's up to you if you care about roleplaying reasons, so do whatever floats your boat.

Yes...that was kind of my point. Although, iirc, there are certain dialogue options in SoD that require higher WIS than 12. Shamans are supposed to be a "wisdom" light class, if I understand them correctly, though.

But there certainly is a mechanical reason to have higher CHA, hence the reason for my posting of the baldursgate wiki.

Jarrakul

Yeah, I didn't exactly mean to disagree with you. It's just that I'm of the opinion that if something can be used as a reason for anything, it's probably not what people are asking about when they ask if there's any reason to do something.

Fair point on the SOD stuff, though. I wasn't thinking about how the SOD content added a bunch of new stat checks to conversations.

Objulen

Do Shamans get the 6 spells/day that Sorcerers do?

And technically, I think Sorcerers are Int casters in BG from the AD&D rules, but like the Shaman, it doesn't impact the mechanics that much.

Jarrakul

That is actually a much better justification for casting with Charisma than sorcerers have ever had in any edition I've seen.

rapsam2003

Jarrakul said:

That is actually a much better justification for casting with Charisma than sorcerers have ever had in any edition I've seen.

I actually agree. I think the whole sorcerer thing was always 1) they gotta be different than wizards; 2) let's have a CHA-based class, so people stop considering it a throwaway stat; 3) sorcerers don't study magic, so they don't need INT.

TheArtisan

Ironically sorcerers need wisdom more than shamans do (Wish)

rapsam2003

Artemius_I said:

Ironically sorcerers need wisdom more than shamans do (Wish)

lol, I'm so glad that Wish was significantly in 3E and subsequent editions of D&D. (Iirc, it got removed in 5E. Never played 4E.) It felt so obligatory, and it was so broken. In 3E, they added these two costs to Wish, one of which is very "expensive" and the other can potentially be so:

Material Component
When a wish duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 10,000 gp, you must provide that component.

XP Cost
The minimum XP cost for casting wish is 5,000 XP. When a wish duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay 5,000 XP or that cost, whichever is more. When a wish creates or improves a magic item, you must pay twice the normal XP cost for crafting or improving the item, plus an additional 5,000 XP.

That highly limited the desire to cast Wish in 3E p&p unless you REALLY needed to. lol

PugPug

rapsam2003 said:

Well, sorcerers don't get new spells based on their casting stat (which is CHA), but CHA gives its own (arguably big) advantages. The Shaman casting stat (WIS) also doesn't grant new spells based on how much WIS you have; but, again, there's advantages to having higher WIS. See here for all the advantages and disadvantages that your character can have based on stats: http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Character_Ability_Scores

Yeah, you get lore for it. And in BG2 you can

sacrifice a point of it in a Bhaal dream. So like, don't do that and let it drop to 0 across multiple playthroughs. It should be fatal. Anyone know if it actually is?

rapsam2003

PugPug said:

Yeah, you get lore for it.

The crappy thing is, since lore starts off low for most classes (bard being the exception, it seems), you don't even want high WIS for lore. You just want a bard. I honestly have never found much use for lore in BG1, because the only bard I ever enjoyed in the BG series was Haer'Dalis. (This is true even with extra banter mods installed for BG1.) I've been playing this series off and on for like 7 years, and I still can't get myself to "like" the bards in BG1. Anyway, I never picked high WIS for the sake of lore. I gave high WIS to CHARNAME who were clerics because, high WIS = more cleric spells.

The way Shaman works, though, is that you don't get more Shaman spells based on your amount of WIS. In terms of how I would RP a Shaman, I think it makes sense that a Shaman would have high WIS. But RP =/= mechanics.
And in BG2 you can

PugPug said:

[/spoiler]sacrifice a point of it in a Bhaal dream. So like, don't do that and let it drop to 0 across multiple playthroughs. It should be fatal. Anyone know if it actually is?[/spoiler]

Well, iirc, you cannot reduce any stat below 3. Ever. That's hardcoded into the game and is consistent with the 2E D&D rules.



Sidenote: I really am liking the below idea more and more. I almost feel like this should be a mod. I'm not sure if it's doable or not though, because even sorcerers are int-based in BG. I'm unsure if the "casting stats" are hardcoded to be either wisdom or intelligence in BG1/2.

gangler said:

I feel like if Shamans were to have a casting stat, it would be Charisma.

The Shaman's whole thing is that they communicate with spirits. The Shaman Player Character Biography indicates the ability to see these spirits is a power you're born with, but it sounds like beyond that it's really up to you to convince the spirits to lend you any boons. The more Charisma you have, the more spells the spirits should give you.

PugPug

@rapsam2003 Yes, no one invests in stats for lore. Even with 18 int and 18 wis, you don't get enough bonus lore to be useful unless you are a bard, and if you are a bard you could have minimum int/wis and still max out lore very quickly.

BelleSorciere

My mage/cleric occasionally identifies items with lore but not nearly enough to actually rely on it. Annoying.

Jarrakul

@rapsam2003 it's worth noting that Wish in 2nd edition D&D permanently reduced your stats (I think your Con dropped by 1) and incapacitated you for a couple weeks after you cast it. So the stark contrast you're referring to is less between the 3E Wish and the 2E Wish as it is between the BG Wish and the PnP Wish.

Jarrakul

True, although Haste didn't fatigue you in PnP, so there's been at least some attempt to implement spell consequences in BG.

rapsam2003

Jarrakul said:

@rapsam2003 it's worth noting that Wish in 2nd edition D&D permanently reduced your stats (I think your Con dropped by 1) and incapacitated you for a couple weeks after you cast it. So the stark contrast you're referring to is less between the 3E Wish and the 2E Wish as it is between the BG Wish and the PnP Wish.

True. I just really hate how you can abuse the hell out of Wish in BG.

gangler said:

I hear Haste is also like that. Apparently in Pen and Paper every time you got hasted it aged you by a year, but that didn't get implemented in Baldur's Gate so we can just go around hasting before every major battle like it's no big deal.

Here's the P&P description of Haste from 2E:

Haste: ... When this spell is cast, each affected creature functions at double its normal movement and attack rates. A hasted creature gains a -2 initiative bonus. Thus, a creature moving at 6 and attacking once per round would move at 12 and attack twice per round. Spellcasting and spell effects are not sped up. The number of creatures that can be affected is equal to the caster's experience level; those creatures closest to the center of effect are affected first. All affected by haste must be in the designated area of effect. Note that this spell negates the effects of a slow spell. Additionally, this spell ages the recipient by one year, because of sped-up metabolic processes. This spell is not cumulative with itself or with other similar magic. Its material component is a shaving of licorice root. [2E CD-ROM PHB]

So, it ages your character. Unless your character is "ancient", then it's whatever.

2E P&P did have rules for "old" characters, where you got stat disadvantages for being over a certain age. But, since most folks probably avoided that like the plague, I'd imagine that rule didn't come into play very often, if ever. Theoretically, if Haste was abused a ton, then it could advance a character into "old age" range. Meh.

smeagolheart

rapsam2003 said:

2E P&P did have rules for "old" characters, where you got stat disadvantages for being over a certain age.

Don't sell short the advantages like senior discounts with merchants, bingo night at the Tavern, and tales you can tell younger adventurers about how, back in your day, you had to fight goblins uphill both ways.

Argyle

I don't see how Charisma should be a primary stat for any type of spellcasting ... makes no sense? To quote Gygax, "Charisma is the measure of the character's combined physical attractiveness, persuasiveness, and personal magnetism." I can see an argument for Charisma to augment some charm-type spells or be an additonal requirement for a prestrige class, but that's about it. Charisma certainly should affect dialog options, store prices, etc., but those have nothing to do with magic. If anything, I'd say both Shamans and Sorcerors should use Wisdom as a prime stat. Also spracht Gygax, "Wisdom is a composite term for the character's enlightenment, judgement, wile, will power, and to a certain extent, intuitiveness." Since Sorcerors rely on innate/intuitive magic, should not Wisdom be important?

rapsam2003

Argyle said:

I don't see how Charisma should be a primary stat for any type of spellcasting ... makes no sense? To quote Gygax, "Charisma is the measure of the character's combined physical attractiveness, persuasiveness, and personal magnetism."

Because of that part. It takes magnetism to convince spirits (or in the case of warlock, starting in 3E and on: devils/demons) to grant you favors or do your bidding.


I think the justification as to why sorcerers use Charisma is explained by this entry from http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Sorcerer :

Sorcerers are arcane artists, casting spells as a poet might write poetry, innately, rather than through regimented study. How they come by this power is not commonly known, though it is speculated that sorcerers' very flesh is, in some way, touched by arcane power. Many sorcerers claim to be the descendants of dragons, a claim that is neither wholly false nor wholly true.[2] It is evident that many sorcerers do indeed draw upon ancient dragon blood but others appear to draw their power from other sources, such as wild magic.[3] Regardless of the origin in question, most sorcerers view their magic through a lens of emotion rather than logic, and they are not prone to specialization in the same way many wizards are.

In other words, a sorcerer uses his/her personal magnetism as the "lens" through which magic is viewed. They feel and command; magic reacts.

[Deleted User]

I believe also that post-Gygax, the "personal magnetism" part of Charisma got expanded to "force of personality." So you combine some degree of innate ability with the confidence to strong-arm/fast-talk reality into changing to suit you and you get Sorcerer spellcasting. This is also why Bardic spellcasting is spontaneous and based on Charisma in 3.X+.

lelag200

According to the BGEE wiki app, you receive "penalties to your save vs. spells (vs the mind)" if your wisdom dips below 8. I'm not sure why it's not on the other wiki or if this is even accurate, but everything else in the app is.

A wisdom of 3 will give a -3 penalty to save vs spell ("vs mind spells")

Argyle

OK, I can see how Charisma is good for a Shaman. That makes sense given the interaction with otherworldly personalities. But for Sorcerors I still don't see any connection between the definition of Charisma and poetic-style or artistic talent.

Sorcery is art. To be a great artist in our world you do not need a particularly high IQ (INT), you might be quite unpleasant in social interaction (CHA), you might have very little self-control (WIS), and you don't need to be able to put your leg bhind your head (DEX). And your body does not have to be exceptional, either (STR & CON). So that leaves us in need of an ability score, say "Artistry". This would apply to mechanical/tinker types, sorcerors, thieves, etc. It looks like D&D kind of defaults to either INT or CHA to cover the missing ability category, but neither of those make sense to me.

rapsam2003

Argyle said:

OK, I can see how Charisma is good for a Shaman. That makes sense given the interaction with otherworldly personalities. But for Sorcerors I still don't see any connection between the definition of Charisma and poetic-style or artistic talent.

As mentioned by myself:

rapsam2003 said:

[...] a sorcerer uses his/her personal magnetism as the "lens" through which magic is viewed. They feel and command; magic reacts.

This is supported by:

Kaigen said:

I believe also that post-Gygax, the "personal magnetism" part of Charisma got expanded to "force of personality." So you combine some degree of innate ability with the confidence to strong-arm/fast-talk reality into changing to suit you and you get Sorcerer spellcasting. This is also why Bardic spellcasting is spontaneous and based on Charisma in 3.X+.

gangler said:

I've heard it described as Presence. [...]

Jarrakul

lelag200 said:

According to the BGEE wiki app, you receive "penalties to your save vs. spells (vs the mind)" if your wisdom dips below 8. I'm not sure why it's not on the other wiki or if this is even accurate, but everything else in the app is.

A wisdom of 3 will give a -3 penalty to save vs spell ("vs mind spells")

To the best of my knowledge, these penalties were never actually implemented in the game. They were in the original BG manuals, but they were never implemented.

Argyle

OK then the 3E PHB page 51 defintion must be wrong in regards to the relevance of Charisma:

"Sorcerers create magic the way a poet creates poems, with inborn talent honed by practice. They have no books, no mentors, no theories -- just raw power that they direct at will."

"Inborn talent" and "practice" clearly have nothing to do with force of personality, or inner strength (which is really WIS anyway), or magnetic/emotional lenses as mentioned multiple times above. 3E must have been either flat out wrong, or it was talking about a statistic that really does not exist in D&D.

So how does a poet create poems? How does Dave Gaider write storylines for BGEE subplots? Does Dave have a really strong personality and focused emotional lens comparable to a Paladin?