Rangers and familiars

guston

Why don't rangers get a familiar like Minsk? It doesn't have to be powerful but id like to have one just for fun. Minsk is like the worse ranger ever and he gets his own miniature giant space hamster but a ranger demigod cant even get a pet dog to play fetch with? I'm not complaining so much as I am genuinely curious. I don't know much about the game setting lore so I'm wondering if there is a reason for it. Was it a developer oversite. Were there game balance issues? Does the bhaalspawn smell and no animal wants to be his friend?

Tanthalas

Beast Masters can actually cast Find Familiar.

jpierce55

Minsc is an awesome character, but he does not fit the role of a ranger. LOL, he does better with a great sword and heavy armor. I imagine at the time the game was made the developers lacked ability to do that.

guston

Tanthalas said:

Beast Masters can actually cast Find Familiar.

They can? Only thing I see in the kit description on gamebanshee is that they can cast charm animal and animal summoning lv 1-3. Nothing about find familiar spell being available to them.

Tanthalas

Why exactly can't there be rangers that use 2-handed swords and heavy armor? Not all rangers use stealth in the Realms.

Ayuruk

i Actually like minsc; in fact in using him in the most recient game i started playing again. At the moment im using Minsc as a duel-wield some of the awesome weapons in the SoA/ToB game.

guston

Tanthalas said:

Why exactly can't there be rangers that use 2-handed swords and heavy armor? Not all rangers use stealth in the Realms.

Technically he can't be a ranger because his stats don't allow it. I always figured that Minsk's class is ranger because he has a hamster and says he's a ranger. He can actually cast some spells so that adds validity to his self identified status as ranger but his stats and abilities are closest to that of a fighter/berserker. He probably got hit on the head one day and decided that he can talk to hamsters and is therefore a ranger. Since he is a big strong guy i doubt many would have tried to argue with him.

Tanthalas

Minsc isn't the only NPC with illegal stats (and weren't stat requirements for classes abandoned anyway in later editions of DnD?). His low Wisdom is very likely due to his head receiving too many blows and I doubt him losing Wisdom would make him suddenly stop being a ranger.

Tanthalas

@guston

And Beast Masters can cast Find Familiar (its a special ability) even though it was never listed as a class advantage in the kit description.

guston

Tanthalas said:

Minsc isn't the only NPC with illegal stats (and weren't stat requirements for classes abandoned anyway in later editions of DnD?). His low Wisdom is very likely due to his head receiving too many blows and I doubt him losing Wisdom would make him suddenly stop being a ranger.

I'eve never noticed other NPC's that didn't have the proper stat requirements. I guess Minsc is just the most obvious. As for the head injury you could be right though I'm not sure why it would harm his wisdom score more than his intelligence score. He has a Int of 8 but a Wis of 6. Plus he can go berserk which is far from a standard ranger ability. He is an odd duck whatever the case may be. I always like to keep him around though.

Roller12

The word Illegal is being thrown around here way too often. Illegal stats are those which break the rules at game start. The NPCs are in the wild, and since this game has stat boosting items, and the next game has stat reducing items, NPCs "in the wild" technically can have any stat, as a result of their adventuring life, even without accounting for crippling experiences.

Lord_Gay

Minsc is perfectly legal as a Ranger. The stat requirements for the classes only had to be met to START in that class. Once you entered that class, injuries, curses, disease and whatnot could permanently lower your scores and you would still be a member of that class. You need to have 9 STR for example to be a fighter, but once you're a fighter, your STR could go down to 3 and you can still advance as one. There is nothing illegal about Minsc at all.

If people want to complain about illegal stats, there's the 20 dex and 20 con two NPCs have. While it's certainly possible they found stat boosting books themselves, it's extremely unlikely they did so at 1st level. I suppose though they could have played through B5 Horror on the Hill...

As for rules, Tanthalas pointed out that BMs have Find Familiar. I imagine that the devs didn't include pets of any kind (not even familiars), since computers were slower, pathing was hard enough as it was, and they probably figured that talking allies that leveled and could be raised were a lot more fun than non-talking, non-leveling pets that chunked all the time. That's what summons are for.

Dragonspear

Also you have Anomen who is a dual class cleric despite only having 12 wisdom when you pick him up. Furthermore, even if you complete his quest in a LG manner his wisdom only goes up to 16. You of course need a minimum of 17 for the primary stat of the class you're dual classing into.

Obviously Anomen just chugged a potion of insight (sarcasm) before he dual classed.

Lord_Gay

Or Anomen is roommates with the DM.

Brude

Why exactly can't there be rangers that use 2-handed swords and heavy armor? Not all rangers use stealth in the Realms.

Then the question becomes: What makes a Ranger a Ranger and not just a Fighter? Heavy armor and a 2hander -- the way most people seem to play Minsc -- makes him feel like more pure Fighter than Ranger. (Nevermind that his special ability makes him a BG1 Fighter kit).

The word Illegal is being thrown around here way too often. Illegal stats are those which break the rules at game start. The NPCs are in the wild, and since this game has stat boosting items, and the next game has stat reducing items, NPCs "in the wild" technically can have any stat, as a result of their adventuring life, even without accounting for crippling experiences.

I think people are using "illegal" to note attributes and profiencies that are difficult or impossible for a PC to get a comparable level.

Eg: Kagain's CON, Coran's DEX and weapon mastery, Haer'Daelis specialization, Aerie's races/class combo.

guston

Dragonspear said:

Also you have Anomen who is a dual class cleric despite only having 12 wisdom when you pick him up. Furthermore, even if you complete his quest in a LG manner his wisdom only goes up to 16. You of course need a minimum of 17 for the primary stat of the class you're dual classing into.

Obviously Anomen just chugged a potion of insight (sarcasm) before he dual classed.

You know I never noticed that! I never liked the guy so I only kept him around long enough to do his quest and then just left him back at the bar. Also for some reason I always assumed that he was a fighter/cleric multiclass. I wonder why he though switching from a perfectly good fighter into a crappy cleric was a good idea. Guess that's why he has a wisdom of 12.

Dee

@guston Don't you know? Only clerics are eligible to romance the Charname.

Roller12

Haer'Dalis is a member of Doomguard, they get wep specialization as a bonus
Aerie is an Avariel subrace, unlocking cleric/mage class
Edwin is a red wizard of thay, getting extra spells from double specialization

Kagain found a Tome of Con, i guess.
Coran.. i think there was a story behind it, but i dont remember anymore.

fun fact, a good aligned thief/mage dual with 17 dex will become illegal in BG2, since we are loosing a point of dex there, making it a 16. And ofc we are losing more stats in BG2 potentially making even more PC impossible.

So.. yeah.

bbear

Back on topic...I think Boo makes a good familiar for Minsc. And Boo should get the ability to cause blindness. Go for the eyes Boo, GO FOR THE EYES!

Dragonspear

@Brude

The second most famous ranger in Forgotten Realms, (after Drizzt of course), is Dove Silverhand/Falconhand. She regularly wore full plate mail and uses a longsword

Heck if I ever get around to finding a group, one day I plan on making a 3e or 3.5e Paladin/Ranger/Fighter using Greatswords. While Archery and Dual Wielding are common among rangers, that never encompasses all rangers. They might merely be rangers who're still able to track, have general woodland knowledge etc.

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Dove_Falconhand

Brude

Dragonspear said:

@Brude

The second most famous ranger in Forgotten Realms, (after Drizzt of course), is Dove Silverhand/Falconhand. She regularly wore full plate mail and uses a longsword

Heck if I ever get around to finding a group, one day I plan on making a 3e or 3.5e Paladin/Ranger/Fighter using Greatswords. While Archery and Dual Wielding are common among rangers, that never encompasses all rangers. They might merely be rangers who're still able to track, have general woodland knowledge etc.

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Dove_Falconhand

Good insight; I didn't know about that character.

But my question remains. What makes playing that kind of ranger different from playing just a fighter? Especially in the context of this video game?

Sure, there might be external role play options, but in-game, mechanically, they'd be almost completely the same.

Dragonspear

Outside of favored enemy and nature spells yes they would.

I mean I still HAVE the option of stealthing or dual wielding, however, the difference between a base fighter and base ranger is trading the ability to attain grand mastery in a weapon (greatly nerfed in BG2 anyway) for being able to gain a favored enemy, which as I recall is +4 to hit and damage against the opponent. Depending on what favored enemy you pick (top 3 I know of are Dragon, Lich, Beholder in that order for BG2; Spiders and Ogres for BG1), you gain more than a benefit of grand mastery and you get it from level 1 against those opponents.

I won't even try to justify the rangers spells though because I find their spell list lacking, especially compared to a paladin =(

LadyRhian

In 1e, after you reached name level (generally level 9), you could build a stronghold and attract followers. For clerics and Druids, you built a temple/shrine and attracted acolytes. For Mages and Illusionists, you built a tower and found apprentices. For Thieves and assassins, you made a guild and attracted low-level thieves. For monks, a monastery. For Fighters, you attracted fighting men. For Paladins, you became attached to a house of worship of some sort and attracted fellow knights. For Rangers, however, you attracted other kinds of followers- animals, creatures of the woodlands, and sometimes other fighting men or rangers, and sometimes you could attract a Dragon or something REALLY powerful.

guston

LadyRhian said:

In 1e, after you reached name level (generally level 9), you could build a stronghold and attract followers. For clerics and Druids, you built a temple/shrine and attracted acolytes. For Mages and Illusionists, you built a tower and found apprentices. For Thieves and assassins, you made a guild and attracted low-level thieves. For monks, a monastery. For Fighters, you attracted fighting men. For Paladins, you became attached to a house of worship of some sort and attracted fellow knights. For Rangers, however, you attracted other kinds of followers- animals, creatures of the woodlands, and sometimes other fighting men or rangers, and sometimes you could attract a Dragon or something REALLY powerful.

A dragon companion at lv 9? How would you even go about continuing a game with something like that at your beck and call? Attack a rich trading hub and make yourself king of a city state?

sandmanCCL

Aosaw said:

Don't you know? Only clerics are eligible to romance the Charname.

Is it sad I just now realized all the NPCs your Bhaalspawn can hook up with are divine spellcasters?

Kind of ironic considering they'd basically be shagging a new god. There's probably something in cleric tennants forbidding hooking up with other Gods.

Dragonspear

I hadn't realized it until someone mentioned it in this thread either sandman.

LadyRhian

@Guston Rangers are good, so no. They were generally small Copper dragons of age category 1-5 (anything from a baby to an adult Dragon. The only problem was, in first edition, Dragons weren't that impressive. I mean, even Tiamat had something like 128 hit points, as stated in the back of the Dungeon Master's Guide. Dragons could only breathe 3 times a day, and it did its hit points in damage. But it only got its age category in hit points. So, say you have a Blue Dragon who is just a baby (age category 1) Blue Dragons have 8 to 10 Hit Dice. So a baby Blue Dragon could have 8 to 10 hit points. A Great Wyrm Blue Dragon had just 64 (8 times 8) to 80 (8 times 10) hit points. It got to the point where people would actually just go after dragons because they were so EASY to kill, and they had literally tons of treasure, in both coins and magic.

But Rangers could also attract a Storm Giant, 2-5 treants, 1-2 Werebears or Weretigers, 2-4 Sprites, 1 Satyr, 1-2 Brownies, 1-4 Pixies, etc. In 2e, they seriously beefed up Dragons, to the point where they were fearsome beasts. But in 1e, they were relatively easy to kill.

guston

LadyRhian said:

@Guston Rangers are good, so no. They were generally small Copper dragons of age category 1-5 (anything from a baby to an adult Dragon. The only problem was, in first edition, Dragons weren't that impressive. I mean, even Tiamat had something like 128 hit points, as stated in the back of the Dungeon Master's Guide. Dragons could only breathe 3 times a day, and it did its hit points in damage. But it only got its age category in hit points. So, say you have a Blue Dragon who is just a baby (age category 1) Blue Dragons have 8 to 10 Hit Dice. So a baby Blue Dragon could have 8 to 10 hit points. A Great Wyrm Blue Dragon had just 64 (8 times 8) to 80 (8 times 10) hit points. It got to the point where people would actually just go after dragons because they were so EASY to kill, and they had literally tons of treasure, in both coins and magic.

But Rangers could also attract a Storm Giant, 2-5 treants, 1-2 Werebears or Weretigers, 2-4 Sprites, 1 Satyr, 1-2 Brownies, 1-4 Pixies, etc. In 2e, they seriously beefed up Dragons, to the point where they were fearsome beasts. But in 1e, they were relatively easy to kill.

I see now. That is a lot less impressive than I was imagining. I though it was like getting one of those huge dragons from BG2 to fight on your team.

Brownies? I assume that's a typo.

LadyRhian

Nope. Brownies are small woodland creatures that cast spells.

guston

LadyRhian said:

Nope. Brownies are small woodland creatures that cast spells.

What an odd creature. Like a Santa's workshop elf that's been hit with an ugly stick. First time I have ever heard of something like that. Not sure I would want him following me around.

Moomintroll

@guston You've not seen Willow? (great film!)