Cleric or paladin

Danacm

Hi,

I never play with a pure clericm what do you think, can it be strong enough and fun to play ? Or is it faar weaker than the paladin kits? My plan is no dual or multiclass. Or just nor worth the effort and play the good old paladin

Queegon

Pure clerics are pretty weak unless you plan to be that one bhaalspawn cowering behind and buffing allies to do the hard work.

lunar

Never play an unkitted cleric. Kits are powerful at the cost of nothing. Lathander's boon stacks and is a good buff. Helm has free true sights and a +4 weapon. With tweaking clerics can be powerful. A pure, max lvl goodly cleric will blow any troublesome undead including liches to smitherens just by glancing.

So pros of pure cleric:

-weapons are good, flailf of ages, crom faeyr, mace of disruption, sling of seeking, etc.
-you can get the heaviest armor and shield.
-excellent buffer, you can win a battle you lost if you buff with your cleric accordingly on a reload.
-high lvl turn undead makes any undead encounter free xp.
-hlas are useful, energy blades make you decent ranged attacker, storm of vengeance is neat, implosion is scary.
-good hp and excellent save vs poison/death.

Cons:

-1 apr. Even if you dual wield it won't cut it. Lathander's boon helps, as well as improved haste.
-no stoneskin and long casting times make casting at melee a daunty process.
-no protection from enemy dispel magic. You need to depend on your high levels to resist enemy dispels or lose all of your buffs.
-sucky save vs spells, you can have protection spells instead like chaotic commands for chaos, death ward for disintegrate, etc.

Danacm

Thanks the quick reply ! So maybe cleric of helm is sounds good for rp pow. What tweaks u mentioned lunar ?

lololo555

fighter lvl 7 dualclassed to a cleric or a cleric/fighter multiclass creams all paladins. You can always take an inquisitor with a cheat-like dispel, but he will be a subpar damage dealer to be honest. Taking a cleric or cleric/fighter multi and being a dwarf gives you massive save bonuses, while a paladin gives you little bonus, fighter->cleric gives you zero.

Fighter->Cleric can be easily transformed into a warrior with a Holy Power spell, while still being a very effective priest at the same moment.

lunar

For a pure cleric, most important is rolling top ability scores, str 18, dex 18 and con 16, wis 18. Others are optional, however, an int of at least 9 is important to use cleric scrolls and wands. Int 11 is good to survive mind flayer hits. Drop cha to 3 and use the ring of influence for the true power gamer approach.

With draw upon holy might you can raise your str to giant levels easily, if you start with 18. It gives massive damage boost, too. Slings also use str damage boost, so it is very nice. You can even start with 19 str if you choose half-orc for a natural damage bonus even without spells. But not many npcs romance half-orcs, save Dorn and Viconia, IIRC. 16 con is enough for a cleric, there is no benefit to hp for clerics after con 16. Con >20 grants regeneration but it is slow and more of a niche for fighters. A cleric can heal all of his wounds himself, doesn't need reg from high con.

Spell and gear selection is important, too. A full plate with ring or cloak of +2 is very good most of the time, but some dragon-armors serve well with resistances. Shield of harmony is excellent for granting useful immunities to very common disablers. Flail of ages is the go-to cleric weapon and is very useful.

Danacm

Hm but a pure cleric can be as good as a paladin ? Or more fun to play ?

lunar

Depends on what you are looking to play. Paladin is a warrior, and thus can make use of more attacks/round, bows and swords of all kinds, plus the awesomeness that is Carsomyr+5. A paladin can also use warrior hlas like greater whirlwind and a paladin special, summon deva. Kits have varying flavours,

A cleric is primarily a caster and can cast many more spells than a paladin.

Danacm

I want to my pc will be the protagonist of the story, a badass character not a sidekick. Thats what i hesitate to a cleric of helm can be a real protagonist of story.

lunar

If you want to be the one that lands the finishing blows to bosses, cleric is not a good choice. Though you can be quite a terror with harm+holy power tactics, your THAC0 will be equal to a fighter with the spell and with one harming touch you will reduce enemies to 1 hp. Only for another warrior to finish it off.

An inquisitor pc can tank spellcasters with Carsomyr, and wreck spell casters with true sight+dispels. And reliably land the finishing blow, too.

Mush_Mush

Clerics can be pretty decent offensive casters aswell if you wanted to go that route. Obv not on the scale of an arcane caster but spells like hold person, smite, mental domination, flame strike, firestorm are all very effective. and if you go with cleric of talos you get lightning bolts and storm shield. Being a cleric of Talos you can also recruit armies of undead so instead of destroying a large group of shades you can drag em round with you and unleash them on your other enemies

xzar_monty

@Danacm: Start with a berserker and then dual-class him into a cleric at level 9 (or 12, if you're a very patient person). You're going to get one of the most badass characters possible in the game.

But as @lunar pointed out, an inquisitor is very powerful, too. In fact, I think the inquisitor's dispel magic ability is way too powerful and basically amounts to cheating, even if it is within the rules.

lunar

If you go dual class route, put your proficiencies into flails or maces, do not put pips into swords or bows, those will be unusable when you dual class into a cleric.

Skatan

IF you play a single class cleric, you might as well pick a shortie for the bonuses to saves. A halforc is a waste IMHO, since another strenght point means little when you have a plethora of strenght enhancing spells to choose from.

But with this said, it sound like you want a warrior class and not a cleric. The cleric will never be as fearsome fighter as a paladin ofc and the single reason for that is, as always, APR. With 1 APR you will never be an effecient melee fighter and since Clerics can't use the +1 APR enhancing weapons in their offhands, like Blade's and Swashbucklers etc, you're stuck at 2 APR dualweilded with one more from Lathander. You'll still be a defensive powerhouse though.

So to me it sounds like you have the choice of going for a paladin or kit or you go either fighter/cleric or fighter->Cleric. All are valid choices and all are great in their respective area. Paladins and Fighter/clerics are both beasts in melee, the former with Carsomyr ofc and the latter with dualweilding flais, CF or tanking it up with shield. I prefer the latter since they can be dwarfs and it's the bonus to saves that makes them nigh invulnerable, also they have epic beards of the likes no paladin will ever come close.

Danacm

Yeah, but i think just fighting is little bit boring, and cleric seems to have some more feature with spells. So hard to decide

Queegon

I always make PC something that can't be recruited as NPC. So no inquisitors (Keldorn) and no fighter/clerics (Anomen) unless I'm in it for some chaotic evil parade.
And good>evil anyway. Though Berserker/Cleric sure is fun.

Skatan

Danacm said:

Yeah, but i think just fighting is littke bit boring, and cleric seems to have some more feature with spells. So hard to decide

F/C it is then! A paladin has too little spells (and too late) to make the spells any good really and a cleric has to little fighting prowess, so wy choose? Clerics are great at multiclassing since you get access to their highest level spells quite early compared to a mage and with high wisdom you get alot of extra spellslots.

In my humble opinion, playing a singleclass cleric is a waste almost as bad as a singelclass thief. Yes, yes, I know there are people who think they are great, but I personally don't.

Mush_Mush

The only time I ever play a cleric as the protagonist is if I plan to dual them into a mage or as a c/m multi. You can get some really nice spell combos using triggers and contingencies later on. Not to mention holy power & righteous magic before casting tenser's transformation.

But if the choice is strictly between paladin or pure cleric I'd go paladin, Cavalier to be unique or Inquisitor to be op and steal Keldorn's thunder

I played through as a Cavalier once was pretty awesomesauce.

Yulaw9460

Deleted.

Arius

Pal's IMO get the best magic item for the stronghold quests. Pride of the Legion +2. -1 AC plate is pretty darn good reward if you ask me. Of course you have to beat the red dragon FIRST....then complete all the Pali quests but they aren't that hard.

Danacm

Maybe i need to dual the cleric, but i cant do it at so early (lvl3).But i think i try the helm cleric and see how fun it is.