End of this expansion -spoiler-

LoveViconia

No idea if there are more different ending but,

I was expecting a little fight and a kidnapping from the hooded figure, we all know who he is, but the end didn't hook the begin of BG2 so well, in BG2 you are told they have been killed and kidnapped, but how? The game finished with CHARNAME, Jahiera, did not have her in my party, and some more, they took a nap and there is the end.

justfeelinathome

I agree that an unbeatable encounter (though somewhat cheesy and old as a narrative device) would have been more gratifying as an ending than a simple cutscene. Well, actually, one does not deny the possibility of the other! I, at least, expected one and was determined to give those ambushers the fight of their lives.

P.S.: If you want to use the spoiler tabs, you can find them under the sixth symbol next to your profile picture, above the text box. Either use them before writing up the not to be spoiled paragraph, or highlight it and then click on the symbol selecting the "Spoiler" option. Unless you are using a phone, in which case I don't know a thing about lay outing.

CLsdlt80

I'm betting that beamdog is gonna make content for BG2 EE that will make the transition to BG2 smoother than it currently is. I'm HOPING they do, had much fun on my fist playthrough of SoD.

LoveViconia

justtravelinthrough said:

P.S.: If you want to use the spoiler tabs, you can find them under the sixth symbol next to your profile picture, above the text box. Either use them before writing up the not to be spoiled paragraph, or highlight it and then click on the symbol selecting the "Spoiler" option. Unless you are using a phone, in which case I don't know a thing about lay outing.

Thanks.

jsaving

The transition seems smooth to me:

You are knocked out at the end of SoD by a spell from the hooded figure and then wake up in BG2 as a prisoner of the hooded figure.

I too would like to see new BG2 content, such as a continuation of the Skie storyline, but I don't see "how you got from SoD to BG2" as being especially interesting (see spoiler for why).

CLsdlt80

The transition seems rough to me, not much because of the events unfolding in the story, although the intro of SoA doesn't seem to fit very much with the ending of SoD since it talks as if nothing noteworthy has happened, despite the fact you've just came out of a huge quest... but because of the lack of continuity regarding experience levels and related dialogues or references to the latest events, among other things.

I enjoyed the last addition to the game very much, but as of right now, it seems as they squished it between both games, specially regading SoA; it blends better with the ending of BGEE I for obvious reasons. I expect official content to update SoA, or hope talented modders (enhanced edition trilogy anyone?) make things smoother, because the flow seems contrived.

LoveViconia

@jsaving

I'm missing the hooded figure casting his spell, but yes some spell was casted, if the hooded figure was not there it's easy to figure out who did it and why, and after the spell is casted i see the credits for the game.

Still the end does not hooks with BG2. In BG2 you are told that you were marching surrounded by a crowd greetings CHARNAME and his party, and someone from the crowd casted a spell and kidnapped CHARNAME and his party.

I don't know if there are 2 different ending, but i had 20 rep and good party, I was dissed and after that imprisoned, i was then allowed to escape, so it was again CHARNAME and party, but this time alone, the end doesn't really fits, unless they have changed the start, and a little of fight with the kidnapper would be fun and would explain what really happened, a small movie showing you kidnapped can do the same.

About Skie, I had no option to say that i saved her life, that could lead to a different ending, but if there is just one ending then no point. Still about Skie she got anyway what she deserved, she took the flaming fist and the going on war as a joke, blame it on someone else do not blame CHARNAME he saved many lives and saved hers too.

LoveViconia

CLsdlt80 said:

The transition seems rough to me, not much because of the events unfolding in the story, although the intro of SoA doesn't seem to fit very much with the ending of SoD since it talks as if nothing noteworthy has happened, despite the fact you've just came out of a huge quest... but because of the lack of continuity regarding experience levels and related dialogues or references to the latest events, among other things.

@CLsdlt80 The translation often has changed,

but I do remember something like "someone from the greeting crowd kidnapped CHARNAME and his party" and he was so strong nobody was able to stop him.

rapsam2003

LoveViconia said:

"someone from the greeting crowd kidnapped CHARNAME and his party" and he was so strong nobody was able to stop him

See...the use of "greeting" crowd implies that the crowd could have easily been organized by the kidnapper.

LoveViconia

rapsam2003 said:

LoveViconia said:

"someone from the greeting crowd kidnapped CHARNAME and his party" and he was so strong nobody was able to stop him

See...the use of "greeting" crowd implies that the crowd could have easily been organized by the kidnapper.

@rapsam2003 yes but,

in SOD the crowd now hates CHARNAME and he is kidnapped alone with his party, this is the reason the end does't match with it.

rapsam2003

LoveViconia said:

@rapsam2003 yes but,

in SOD the crowd now hates CHARNAME and he is kidnapped alone with his party, this is the reason the end does't match with it.

I think we're talking at cross purposes here. A crowd does NOT have to be the general populace of Baldur's Gate; it could be a large group of disguised folks who were actually Irenicus and his cronies. In that sense, the ending does match nonetheless.


Also, even if we do assume that the crowd was folks from Baldur's Gate, there may still have been some Baldur's Gate folks who were on your side, due to everything you've done for the city.

Either way, ending is slightly off, but not by much.

DJKajuru

LoveViconia said:

No idea if there are more different ending but,

I was expecting a little fight and a kidnapping from the hooded figure, we all know who he is, but the end didn't hook the begin of BG2 so well, in BG2 you are told they have been killed and kidnapped, but how? The game finished with CHARNAME, Jahiera, did not have her in my party, and some more, they took a nap and there is the end.

But BG2's intro video says "they came as you rested" , "there was no malice, or hatred, only quick capture
". The capture seems legit!

Calemyr

DJKajuru said:

LoveViconia said:

No idea if there are more different ending but,

I was expecting a little fight and a kidnapping from the hooded figure, we all know who he is, but the end didn't hook the begin of BG2 so well, in BG2 you are told they have been killed and kidnapped, but how? The game finished with CHARNAME, Jahiera, did not have her in my party, and some more, they took a nap and there is the end.

But BG2's intro video says "they came as you rested" , "there was no malice, or hatred, only quick capture
". The capture seems legit!

Agreed. It's unceremonious and inelegant, but it fits what we knew about the gap from BG2. You "fled from Baldur's Gate under circumstances darker than anyone could imagine", and then were captured while off your guard by attackers with no interest in fighting or killing you. It works.

Of course, one of the main problems I have with SoD is the feeling of powerlessness it instills. The Scion has no agency in anything beyond side quests. Bridgefort and the taking of Dragonspear are the only places I can think of where you actually take hold of events. Everywhere else, you're just reacting to the circumstances. The conclusion of the Dragonspear storyline is beyond frustrating in its determination to refuse you agency. Even as you prove again and again what an unstoppable badass you are, the story just doesn't seem to care.

Also, it was really stupid how you couldn't just agree to Caelar's requests, or at least call her out on what you've discovered that she doesn't know. Caelar's stated goal is definitely heroic and I have played more than one character who would happily say "I can end this pointless war and save a town's worth of unjustly damned souls at the same time? Sign me up." I've also played a few characters who would just as happily tell her "Hey, Red. You know you're being played, right? Your "saintly" advisor has been an arsehole to you more than once and the ghost of Dragonspear himself has told me you're working for him instead of the other way around. Storming hell sounds like fun, but first we kill that bastard and do it the right way, deal?"

rapsam2003

Calemyr said:

Also, it was really stupid how you couldn't just agree to Caelar's requests, or at least call her out on what you've discovered that she doesn't know. Caelar's stated goal is definitely heroic and I have played more than one character who would happily say "I can end this pointless war and save a town's worth of unjustly damned souls at the same time? Sign me up." I've also played a few characters who would just as happily tell her "Hey, Red. You know you're being played, right? Your "saintly" advisor has been an arsehole to you more than once and the ghost of Dragonspear himself has told me you're working for him instead of the other way around. Storming hell sounds like fun, but first we kill that bastard and do it the right way, deal?"

Imho, Caelar is incredibly naive and show she doesn't understand how the Nine Hells work at all. (See here: http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Nine_Hells .) I would really, really hope that someone who grew up in Candlekeep would have studied enough of the Great Wheel Cosmology ( http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Great_Wheel_cosmology ) to have a basic understanding of the fact you really cannot storm the Nine Hells. It just doesn't work that way. It is a literal impossibility for a mortal army to do more than roll over and die in the Nine Hells. So, I really don't think that CHARNAME would ever join Caelar in storming the hells, considering CHARNAME's education -- even if CHARNAME was the kind of sick bastard who would enjoy the possibility of letting devils into Toril through a literal portal to Avernus (and then reveling in all the death/destruction that would cause). It just doesn't make sense that someone who learned from the greatest scholars of the era would be ignorant of the theories describing the basic way the planes work...

Calemyr

You're right. An army cannot do jack in that situation. Adventurers tend to stop by on a quiet Wednesday, however. Raising an army was stupid, but it did at least catch your attention.

Caelar has the gate she needs to go down there. You have the blood. You both have enough firepower to mow down demons and devils like it's lawncare. She's not (according to her stated mission) looking to upset the balance of the wheel. She's only supposedly interested in the innocent damned, the presence of whom is an affront to the cosmology to begin with. It'd be like finding a genuinely devout cleric in the Wall of the Faithless. On paper, it's a pretty legit piece of proper heroism.

Of course, the fact that Caelar doesn't give a crap about the innocent damned (beyond an afterthought if it was convenient), and only wanted to free someone who willingly committed his soul to hell as part of a bargain... that is something a smart Scion might object to, but it isn't revealed until well after you're committed. As it appears at the dead man's pass, Caelar is honestly looking to do some badass heroics.

At least you can try to join her at the pass. And you can call her out on the stupidity of trying to undermine the system that keeps the multiverse from collapsing in on itself. The excuses used to keep your offer from being accepted are weak, however, and the Scion is once again left the victim of circumstance rather than the one taking a stand.

rapsam2003

Calemyr said:

Caelar has the gate she needs to go down there. You have the blood. You both have enough firepower to mow down demons and devils like it's lawncare.

No, no, I really don't think you do. (Also: minor correction. There are no demons in Hell. Demons dwell in the Abyss.) Neither of you are deities; and, despite your Bhaalspawn powers, CHARNAME is still a cosmic wimp compared to packs of devils on their home turf. Heroes like CHARNAME are not immortal or crazy powerful. In terms of power, you're still very much a small fry compared to many devils. (Unlike many of the devils, you have not spent hundreds or thousands of years involved in power struggles and deadly machinations.) You and Caelar and company may cause some trouble for a small time*, but you won't really accomplish much besides staying alive -- and even that part is iffy.


*Sidenote: There's been talk among the players on this forum of adding a "Caelar Rescue Quest" to the Spell Sphere in BG2, which would be really cool. But, once you rescue her, I suspect all she's going to tell you about her experiences is that she's lucky to be alive and probably would have died soon if you hadn't rescued her. That's what it'll boil down to. Hell is an incredibly hostile places to non-devils.

LoveViconia

I try to make this clear,

From the first version of BG2, the really first version of BG2, I can't say if the translation was wrong or it has been changed with the later versions of the game, Imoen said to CHARNAME in the cell something like this "We were marching in the city, the citizens were greeting us, suddently we were kidnapped by a strange man, that's all i remember". Imoen said that if i'm not wrong so I was expecting that end. In easy words CHARNAME and his party were walking on the street, and on the borders of the street the citizens were hooray them. But as said the end does not fits it.

DJKajuru

*Sidenote about @rapsam2003 's sidenote: As cool as it could be, I think she should stay in hell for a couple of years before being rescued.

SirBatince

maybe im doing it wrong but all imoen says to me in BG2 is "we got jumped near BG" so it fits perfectly.

rapsam2003

SirBatince said:

maybe im doing it wrong but all imoen says to me in BG2 is "we got jumped near BG" so it fits perfectly.

That's pretty much what the intro video for BG2 describes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mq9N9ddsKg8

batoor

So what is up with all the random Final Save locations in SoD? So far I've gotten Final saves in Bridgefort, some location I can't remember atm, battle for dragonspear and one in the Nine hells.

I did not get a Final save at the very end of the game though. This isn't really an issue or a big deal at all for me, more out of curiosity.

Arcanis

rapsam2003 said:

Calemyr said:

*Sidenote: There's been talk among the players on this forum of adding a "Caelar Rescue Quest" to the Spell Sphere in BG2, which would be really cool. But, once you rescue her, I suspect all she's going to tell you about her experiences is that she's lucky to be alive and probably would have died soon if you hadn't rescued her. That's what it'll boil down to. Hell is an incredibly hostile places to non-devils.

I'm not entirely sure (since I have no sourcebook at hand which covers the subject) but I have a hard time to imagine Caelar actually *die* in hell -or anyone else for that matter.
She will suffer and be tormented, but I think she will not be able to die - otherways a person who innocently got into hell would just have to commit suicide to be transfered before Cyric (he should be still the God of the Dead during BG) and then being allocated to your correct deity.
It also makes me wonder why Asmodeus just kicked Gargauth out instead of just killing him, I always thought that if he killed him he would either regenerate or be reincarnated into a lesser form (and he is most probably to cunning to stay low for long). And he isn't the only Devil exiled..

So, no, Caelar will not die there, neither will

Irenicus or the Nameless One

and I assume the Devil you fought will be weakend, but not truly destroyed.

rapsam2003

Arcanis said:

I'm not entirely sure (since I have no sourcebook at hand which covers the subject) but I have a hard time to imagine Caelar actually *die* in hell -or anyone else for that matter.

She will suffer and be tormented, but I think she will not be able to die -
No, she probably won't die, so that was bad wording on my part.

Arcanis said:

otherways a person who innocently got into hell would just have to commit suicide to be transfered before Cyric (he should be still the God of the Dead during BG) and then being allocated to your correct deity.

Yeah, makes sense.

Arcanis said:

It also makes me wonder why Asmodeus just kicked Gargauth out instead of just killing him, I always thought that if he killed him he would either regenerate or be reincarnated into a lesser form (and he is most probably to cunning to stay low for long). And he isn't the only Devil exiled..

That was always interesting, devils who are exiled, I mean. Of course, for a while, Gargauth become a deity himself, of the demipower level. I can't remember if he's still around in 5E... http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Gargauth

Arcanis said:

So, no, Caelar will not die there, neither will

Irenicus or the Nameless One

and I assume the Devil you fought will be weakend, but not truly destroyed.

True.

Calemyr

I... don't really follow. Nameless One and Irenicus are already dead by the time they get to hell (or the abyss or whatever). The Nameless One went to very great lengths in order to die and go to hell. They exist in a form that belongs there, and they regenerate accordingly.

Caelar is (potentially) not dead. Why would she have the level of "immortality" the dead have? Are you saying our party should have been effectively immortal as well?

Arcanis

Calemyr said:

I... don't really follow. Nameless One and Irenicus are already dead by the time they get to hell (or the abyss or whatever). The Nameless One went to very great lengths in order to die and go to hell. They exist in a form that belongs there, and they regenerate accordingly.

Caelar is (potentially) not dead. Why would she have the level of "immortality" the dead have? Are you saying our party should have been effectively immortal as well?

Because you can not die in the afterlife.
Also, you do not go to Hell or the Abyss if you die in the Forgotten Realms, you go to the god of the dead. If you have promised your soul to a demon or a devil (i.e. like Blackguards have) they will pick you up there. Otherwise your Patron deity is supposed to do that. The other way to go to Hell is to agree to become a Devil while on the way to the god of the dead. Demons just tear their recruits out of the Wall of the Faithless.

If you go directly to Hell or the Abyss or the Battlefield of the Blood War, then you did not really die, you just somehow got teleported there. It is all about due process

The reason I don't believe you can die in Hell or the Abyss is because of the two reasons mentioned above:
It would be a pretty easy way to escape hell (and I *think* people prefer suicide ofer eternal suffering)
and it makes no sense to exile immensly powerfull rivals if you could just kill them instead.

Calemyr

Well, unless you're bound to the realm like a Bhaalspawn, anyway. Irenicus and the Scion made the jump pretty directly upon Irenicus's death.

But that's my point. The Nameless One and Irenicus are dead. Caelar is not. Why do you think she would be immortal. Why wouldn't she go to judgment upon her death rather than reforming in the pits like a damned soul?

Even if she doesn't go to judgment (fiends aren't fond of giving up prey, after all), her status would change from living in hell to outright damned. She'd become a denizen of hell, not free to leave the first time a portal or planar sphere or blue police box roams through.

Arcanis

Actually, I'm not really sure the Nameless one is dead, that end was a tad confusing the last time I played it ^^

I'm not saying Caelar is immortal, I'm saying she can't die in hell.
Take her out of it and she can die, but as long as she is in there I doubt that she can. Also, the devils are alive in there and they get exiled NOT KILLED which makes little sense.

Also, devils keep the rules, so if the rules state "bring them to the judgement" they will do so - there is a good chance AO could intervene when the cosmic rules are broken, AO kinda dislikes that stuff ^^

Also, Irenicus is not neccesserily dead.. he went to the Abyss (I think) and stayed there, that does not make him dead.

Another thing, there was an Elimster story where he was cought in hell. Mystra went to great length to get him out, why did she not just axe him and then ressurect him? Arguing with Kelemvor is easier than invading Hell itself after all..

Well I admit it is speculation, since I'm not sure there is an actual explanation in the rulebooks..

If my arguments don't convince you (and yours don't convince me) we have to agree to disagree

Calemyr

Fair enough. I was hoping you had some setting specific evidence to support your stance.

My evidence is my attempt at logic and consideration of the circumstance.

* You can die in hell in SoD. in both the abyss (Planar Sphere) and final battle of SoA, and in the challenges presented in the pocket plane, as well as the final final battle.
* You get sent to hell after killing Irenicus. Literally, you kill him and you get dragged along for the ride because it's your soul he's toting. Jon is dead. You kill him again, and he respawns in hell and a swarm of Slayers kill him. He is dead.
* The whole point of the end of PST is to escape immortality. Your choices are to wipe yourself from the realms (easy with Coaxmetal's blade) or convince your mortality to rejoin you. Or be trapped for all eternity, that's also an option, as I recall. You don't get to go to the Blood War without your mortality. The Nameless One is dead.
* The entire point of SoD is that the devils can claim souls that aren't supposed to be in hell if they can catch them. That's Caelar's entire soapbox speech. This would also explain Elminster. (Beyond the writer's pet being too important to his goddess to allow something so demeaning.)

That's what I got. If it isn't persuasive, I can live with that.

rapsam2003

Calemyr said:

Fair enough. I was hoping you had some setting specific evidence to support your stance.

My evidence is my attempt at logic and consideration of the circumstance.

* You can die in hell in SoD. in both the abyss (Planar Sphere) and final battle of SoA, and in the challenges presented in the pocket plane, as well as the final final battle.

Yeah, but do you really die? The game has to say, "you died. reload?", because otherwise it makes no sense in context of the game. But based on how Hell/Abyss works, you would actually reincarnate as a "mane" ( in the Abyss, http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Mane ) or a "lemure" (in Hell, http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Lemure )? Or would you actually die?

Calemyr said:

* You get sent to hell after killing Irenicus. Literally, you kill him and you get dragged along for the ride because it's your soul he's toting. Jon is dead. You kill him again, and he respawns in hell and a swarm of Slayers kill him. He is dead.

Same deal as the above point.

Calemyr said:

* The entire point of SoD is that the devils can claim souls that aren't supposed to be in hell if they can catch them. That's Caelar's entire soapbox speech.

Devils can actually only bargain for souls; they cannot steal souls. If someone else steals your soul, they can sell it to the devils. If one is judged "lawful evil", then the devils automatically get your soul.
This is an option, in the Neverwinter Nights 2 expansion "Mask of the Betrayer". You can actually steal the souls of several folks, including Ammon Jerro, and sell those souls to the 2 devils in the basement of the Academy of Binders.

Calemyr

But didn't the devils break into Dragonspear and drag the souls of those not guilty to hell? Isn't that why everyone likes the Shining Crusade even as they walk over everything in their way?

Also, coming back as a mane or lemure is exactly the consequence I would have thought dying in hell would result in. Yes, you can come back if you die in hell, but you will not come back as the free individual you died as.

rapsam2003

Calemyr said:

But didn't the devils break into Dragonspear and drag the souls of those not guilty to hell? Isn't that why everyone likes the Shining Crusade even as they walk over everything in their way?

It's not explained clearly, but someone had to do something to make that possible. Some pact or such. The devils won't break the rules; Ao doesn't like that.

Calemyr said:

Also, coming back as a mane or lemure is exactly the consequence I would have thought dying in hell would result in. Yes, you can come back if you die in hell, but you will not come back as the free individual you died as.

Yup.