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My bard fails too much when trying to learn spells

AlonsoAlonso Member Posts: 550
edited May 2016 in Troubleshooting
My bard seems to fail too much when learning spells.

I'm playing BG2EE with a Level 9 bard protagonist. I just arrived to Athkatla with tons of spells that I gathered in Irenicus dungeon. I kept all of them because I was waiting to get my hands on a genius potion before attempting to learn them. After drinking the dope my intelligence skyrockets to 22, which means that my chances to learn a spell are 98%. However, each time I try to learn the spells I get between one and three failures of a total of 14. I have tried six or seven times and not a single time did I succeed to learn all the spells, which would be the most expectable outcome with a 98% chance. All the spells are between levels 1 and 3, so that should not be the problem.

In this thread @Ariathor described a similar problem. After a lot of discussion we discovered that the explanation is a hitherto unreported feature of the spell learning mechanics: If you try to learn a spell that belongs to a school other than the one you're specialized in, you get a 15% penalty in your chance (happily that feature is correctly documented since then).

That explained everything in that case because he was experimenting with a wizard. But I am dealing with a bard here. Why the funny results? What am I missing?

I attach the game save in case you want to give it a go.

Edit: Changed the title of the thread to suit better its contents.

Post edited by Alonso on
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Comments

  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,607
    edited May 2016
    Bards don't have a school of magic, but bards are also not intended to get all of the spells that wizards/sorcerers can get. I suspect they get a 15% penalty on chance to learn certain spells.

  • AlonsoAlonso Member Posts: 550
    OK, so any ideas about what can cause these funny results? Schools of magic was the only thing I could think of. Failing that, I'm lost.

  • GoturalGotural Member Posts: 1,229
  • AlonsoAlonso Member Posts: 550
  • AlonsoAlonso Member Posts: 550
    Does that make any difference regarding this?

  • alceryesalceryes Member Posts: 362

    Bards don't have a school of magic, but bards are also not intended to get all of the spells that wizards/sorcerers can get. I suspect they get a 15% penalty on chance to learn certain spells.

    Shouldn't they be treated as a non-specialist mage for learning spells (no bonus or penalty)?

    DhariusjackjackAlonsoFinnTheHuman
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,607
    alceryes said:

    Shouldn't they be treated as a non-specialist mage for learning spells (no bonus or penalty)?

    Probably. I'm not even sure...

  • AlonsoAlonso Member Posts: 550
    OK, I'll report this as a bug if nobody comes with a better idea.

  • JumboWheat01JumboWheat01 Member Posts: 1,028
    Report it if you feel like you must, but sometimes, RNG is just RNG. Even when it is (supposedly) greatly skewed in your favor, it smacks you down like a god on an infidel.

    QuartzBelgarathMTHjackjackrapsam2003
  • ZilberZilber Member Posts: 253
    I found Safana as a bard has about a 60% learn rate, and Neera barely tops that with 66%.

    This is concurrent with other peoples' findings, and not with what should be.

  • AlonsoAlonso Member Posts: 550
    Bug reported here. Feel free to add your own observations to help the developers fix it.
    Zilber said:

    I found Safana as a bard has about a 60% learn rate, and Neera barely tops that with 66%.

    What do you mean by "Safana as a bard"? Did you dual-class her?

    The differences you mention are relatively small. For Safana it's 60% versus 70% and for Neera it's 66% versus 75%. Did you take into account the penalties applied for trying to learn spells above their level?

  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,247
    Can't dual into or out of anything Bard-related due to a hard-coded limitation of the engine, not that it was possible until 3E anyway.
    The only way to test Safana as a Bard is to Keeper her into one, an experiment I am sure would reveal no additional information whatsoever.

  • AlonsoAlonso Member Posts: 550
    Yep, that's what I thought, hence the request for clarification.

  • doggydoggy Member Posts: 313
    Try to lower the difficulty when learning new spells. That should boost your learning rate. When learned just adjust it back to the way it was before.

    Alonso
  • JumboWheat01JumboWheat01 Member Posts: 1,028
    That's a good idea if you're not trying for a Legacy of Bhaal run. Call it cheating if you must, but sometimes RNG just needs to be taught a lesson.

    Alonso
  • AlonsoAlonso Member Posts: 550
    Yeah, that's what I'm doing now. But, you know, it feels so cheesy.

    And this is definitely not a case of me having extremely bad luck with the RNG over and over (I already have about 100 sample attempts, always the same result). In the thread I linked in the first post the OP had a similar situation and eventually we discovered the famous undocumented penalty, which has been finally documented in v2.1, probably thanks to that thread. I'm almost certain we will eventually discover something similar here.

    mf2112FinnTheHuman
  • ZilberZilber Member Posts: 253
    Alonso said:

    Bug reported here. Feel free to add your own observations to help the developers fix it.

    Zilber said:

    I found Safana as a bard has about a 60% learn rate, and Neera barely tops that with 66%.

    What do you mean by "Safana as a bard"? Did you dual-class her?

    The differences you mention are relatively small. For Safana it's 60% versus 70% and for Neera it's 66% versus 75%. Did you take into account the penalties applied for trying to learn spells above their level?
    Sorry, I was extremely incomplete.

    I eekepered Safana into a bard, then gave bot her and Neera a potion of mind focussing, I unloaded my scrollbox and started learning.

    20 scrolls for Safana resulted in 12 learned spells (with two scrolls too high level) int 19

    18 scrolls for Neera resulted in 12 learned spells as well (with 1 being too high level. Int 20

    This is consistent with other people's findings, and not with the % shown

    Alonsojackjack
  • AlonsoAlonso Member Posts: 550
    OK, now I get it. Those results definitely seem as wrong as mine, if not more. They bring to mind a couple more questions:
    Do wild mages have a school of specialization? The manual is unclear about this:
    Wild Mages are wizards who specialize in the study of wild magic.
    Does that mean that their school of specialization is wild magic (which has three spells of its own) and therefore they get the 15% chance penalty when learning any other spell?
    Also:
    A Wild Mage’s casting level also varies slightly whenever he casts a spell
    Is it possible that the level variation also happens when she tries to learn spells? I know that's not what the manual says, but it doesn't say the opposite either. Should this be the case, it would have a huge impact in learning chances.

    Regarding Safana, is there any chance that EEKeeper changes anything that might affect her learning chance?

  • AstroBryGuyAstroBryGuy Member Posts: 3,414
    edited May 2016
    Alonso said:

    My bard seems to fail too much when learning spells.

    I'm playing BG2EE with a Level 9 bard protagonist. I just arrived to Athkatla with tons of spells that I gathered in Irenicus dungeon. I kept all of them because I was waiting to get my hands on a genius potion before attempting to learn them. After drinking the dope my intelligence skyrockets to 22, which means that my chances to learn a spell are 98%. However, each time I try to learn the spells I get between one and three failures of a total of 14. I have tried six or seven times and not a single time did I succeed to learn all the spells, which would be the most expectable outcome with a 98% chance. All the spells are between levels 1 and 3, so that should not be the problem.

    In this thread @Ariathor described a similar problem. After a lot of discussion we discovered that the explanation is a hitherto unreported feature of the spell learning mechanics: If you try to learn a spell that belongs to a school other than the one you're specialized in, you get a 15% penalty in your chance (happily that feature is correctly documented since then).

    That explained everything in that case because he was experimenting with a wizard. But I am dealing with a bard here. Why the funny results? What am I missing?

    I attach the game save in case you want to give it a go.

    Edit: Changed the title of the thread to suit better its contents.

    If you are getting 1-3 failures per 14 spells, that's consistent with your original 18 INT or a 15% penalty "specialist" penalty.

    There's an 85% chance of having at least 11 successes with 18 INT for 14 scrolls, but only 36% of at least 13 successes and only 10% of 14 successes. A 98% chance for 22 INT with a 15% penalty is about the same (83% probability).

    # of successProbabilityCum Prob
    140.10280.1028
    130.25390.3567
    120.29120.6479
    110.20560.8535
    100.09980.9533
    90.03520.9885

    For a 22 INT, the odds of at least 13 successes should be 97%, while should be a 75% chance of 14 successes.

    # of successProbabilityCum Prob
    140.75360.7536
    130.21530.9690
    120.02860.9975
    110.00230.9999
    100.00011.0000
    90.00001.0000

  • AlonsoAlonso Member Posts: 550
    What's your point? That's what we have discussed already (with far less mathematical detail, certainly).

  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,607
    Alonso said:

    What's your point? That's what we have discussed already (with far less mathematical detail, certainly).

    He's giving you the math...Lol

    jackjack
  • PK2748PK2748 Member Posts: 381
    jackjack said:

    Can't dual into or out of anything Bard-related due to a hard-coded limitation of the engine, not that it was possible until 3E anyway.
    The only way to test Safana as a Bard is to Keeper her into one, an experiment I am sure would reveal no additional information whatsoever.

    Actually in 1st edition you had to dual Fighter to Thief and Thief to Druid to even become a Bard and in 2nd edition there was no limit to the combinations created by dual class. Bard had prime requisites so you could dual to and from the Bard class. With the complete Bard book you could also make a significant number of multi class Bard combos in 2nd edition.

    jackjack
  • JumboWheat01JumboWheat01 Member Posts: 1,028
    Gods... that sounds convoluted. But I guess that's because I'm such a class purist.

  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,607
    PK2748 said:

    Actually in 1st edition you had to dual Fighter to Thief and Thief to Druid to even become a Bard and in 2nd edition there was no limit to the combinations created by dual class. Bard had prime requisites so you could dual to and from the Bard class. With the complete Bard book you could also make a significant number of multi class Bard combos in 2nd edition.

    And this is why people loathed the 1st edition after 2E came out. It's also why many people (myself included) prefer the intuitive nature of the 5E ruleset.

    jackjackVallmyr
  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,247
    Yeah, I meant after AD&D 1E, sorry about that. Back then, Bard wasn't just a class, it was an achievement.

  • ChnapyChnapy Member Posts: 360
    edited May 2016
    Heh, I started playing with 3rd Ed so instead of gaming memories, all this bard talk reminded me of

    Post edited by Chnapy on
    jackjackBelgarathMTH
  • joluvjoluv Member Posts: 2,019
    This all seems pretty harsh. Have you ever tried to learn a spell? Cut your Bard a little slack.

    jackjackAstroBryGuyAlonso
  • PK2748PK2748 Member Posts: 381

    PK2748 said:

    Actually in 1st edition you had to dual Fighter to Thief and Thief to Druid to even become a Bard and in 2nd edition there was no limit to the combinations created by dual class. Bard had prime requisites so you could dual to and from the Bard class. With the complete Bard book you could also make a significant number of multi class Bard combos in 2nd edition.

    And this is why people loathed the 1st edition after 2E came out. It's also why many people (myself included) prefer the intuitive nature of the 5E ruleset.
    What's "intuitive" about somebody who spent 7 years apprenticed to a Mage killing 30 hobgoblins with magic missiles and then suddenly being a rogue?

    jackjackAmmar
  • JumboWheat01JumboWheat01 Member Posts: 1,028
    Well a rogue is an intuitive class, you kinda learn just by doing. So you saw your rogue buddy doing all there things and figure you can do that, and so you start doing it.

    At least in later editions, when you multi-class, you don't suddenly forget how you did everything you were doing up to that point and then instantly remember it down the line, like you do with Dual-classing in Baldur's Gate, which I assume is the way 2nd Edition operated like.

  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,247
    Actually, I think in 2E you could use your old skills at anytime, but doing so forfeits any experience you gain for that encounter or action. Anytime as you use only the skills available to your second class, you gain experience in that class.
    It's just goofily implemented in the BG series.

    mf2112PK2748
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