@CyricSpawn, I agree completely with the first paragraph of what you said, though not with the rest of it.
@Fighter_Mage_Thief, thank you for the insightful answer, and for the comedy clip.
@NightfallRob, your attitude toward gaming likely matches that of Neera's writers. "Who cares what happens, when you can just reload over and over. It's only a game." I wouldn't believe any of your heroic stories about beating the odds through wild magic, though, not unless you got from Candlekeep to Sarevok with no reloading. I would just smile and peg you as a teller of tall, and completely untrue, tales.
D&D gaming to me, for better or for worse, is a form of artistic self-expression that I will always take *very* seriously, (I even often dream about being there when I'm sound-asleep and in an REM state), and I will never be better than tense acquaintances with my opposite personality types.
Still, "it takes all kinds...", "variety is the spice of life...", "the world would be a boring place if everyone were the same...", etc., etc.
There's a difference between table top and video games for me. Wild mages in paper and pencil are a pain in the ass and don't get much better over time. Video games, why bother with taking them seriously, or telling tales about them at all? I offer reviews to my friends who are curious, informally and in-person, and otherwise don't talk about video games at all except when offering opinions in forums. They don't bore me to tears like TV does, and there are only so many books I want to read, so they become a form of entertainment when I'm not spending time with friends, family, other hobbies, or searching for the future -Mrs.NightfallRob lol.
Ok I took a long hard look at the table and roughly speaking broke the effects in to groupings
Game over, these effects will almost certainly force a reload.
Bad, these effects cause a clear harm to your group (how much varies on situation for example turning into a squirrel while in a tavern identifying an object is still bad but not as bad as doing it in the final boss fight)
Nothing of importance, the spell fizzles goes pop and in the end there is no mechanical change. (Included here are sex change effects as well as colour change effects, after all Minsc won't hit any less hard because he is purple)
Finally good effects, this is simply stuff that helps you, I've included spell works at half duration because its still a benefit even if its not as much as you wanted also give target gem/treasure has been put here because its going to a party member or an enemy, if its the latter it's more loot very soon, which is good.
Now if your casting a spell on an Ally it breaks down like this
Game over 8 Bad 30 Nothing of importance 30 Good 29
If your casting on a foe the breakdown changes somewhat
Game over 6 Bad 14 Nothing of importance 30 Good 50
Now I'm hoping someone good at maths can turn these into stats we can use? Also it's worth noting that on the a foe all the game over effects are below 25!
Hope this helps
One final point is that many of these situations are highly situational so I've used my best judgment but there is room for leeway. For example one effect is a monster is summoned near the target, for cast on ally I've listed this as bad however if you were we'll rested in near the guards this may just turn into a quick very easy combat. So as I say it's all very situational
Alright, I'll remove my explanation. I have a feeling no one cares anyway.
Why? I think that's a shame the debate had been quite diverse about pros and cons you you were bringing some solid (well as solid as the chaotic things can be) numbers to table.
@Jalily, I 'm sorry I missed whatever you had contributed that you changed your mind about. I'm interested.
@CyricSpawn, thanks for doing some more numbers crunching. Even though I don't like the wild mage class for reasons I've stated, I still find the wild surge table to be a fascinating object of study.
@CyricSpawn good thinking, here's a table I made with what you said in mind.
1 neutral 2 neutral 3 neutral 4 neutral 5 neutral 6 bad 7 neutral 8 neutral 9 neutral 10 bad 11 bad 12 good 13 neutral 14 bad 15 good 16 bad 17 bad 18 neutral 19 bad 20 neutral 21 bad 22 bad 23 good 24 Roll twice more. Both effects apply 25 neutral 26 bad 27 bad 28 neutral 29 bad 30 neutral 31 bad if attack, normal if buff 32 good 33 good 34 neutral 35 neutral 36 good 37 neutral 38 neutral 39 good if attack, bad if buff 40 neutral 41 good 42 good 43 neutral 44 neutral 45 neutral 46 All doors in area of effect open. If there are no doors, then roll twice and use both effects 47 bad 48 Change target randomly 49 good 50 bad 51 Start snowing if outside, otherwise roll twice more 52 good 53 bad if attack, good if buff 54 good 55 good 56 good 57 neutral 58 neutral 59 neutral 60 good 61 good 62 neutral 63 Roll 4 times. All effects happen 64 good if attack, bad if buff 65 Instead of the chosen spell, a different spell of the same level goes off 66 good if attack, bad if buff 67 bad if attack, good if buff 68 bad if attack, good if buff 69 good if attack, bad if buff 70 bad 71 good if attack, bad if buff 72 good if attack, bad if buff 73 good 74 good 75 neutral 76 good if attack, bad if buff 77 good if attack, bad if buff 78 good if attack, bad if buff 79 good if attack, bad if buff 80 neutral 81 neutral 82 neutral 83 good if attack, bad if buff 84 good if attack, bad if buff 85 neutral 86 neutral 87 good if attack, bad if buff 88 good if attack, bad if buff 89 neutral 90 good 91 neutral 92 good 93 good if attack, bad if buff 94 bad if attack, good if buff 95 bad 96 good 97 good 98 neutral 99 good 100 good
1) Why are people judging a class they haven't even played? It's like the other thread where the poster went on and on and on about "game-ending" situations that he had never actually experienced, never heard of, nobody reported happening to them and in the end discovered it couldn't even happen anyways.
2) There are no game ending results. Game ending means the game actually ends, not that a result happens that you don't like. Changing one's sex is not game over. Changing one's color is not game over. Losing your gold is not game over. The whole point of the class is one of chance. If any kind of negative result means you need to reload because the game is no longer fun, then the class is not for you. If you need dependability, reliabilty, and nothing negative, then the class is not for you. If you are a careful strategist who needs everybody to do EXACTLY their attacks at EXACTLY the right time in careful orchestration, then the class is not for you. If however you've played the game every which way but loose and are looking for something to spice up your game and give you something NEW in a playthrough, then the class is worth checking out.
3) I've played tutu many times and Xzar is always a wild mage. While my parties have died countless times from monsters and traps and assassins, I have never once died from Xzar's miscast. I have never reloaded any miscast, and I've lost gold and had sex changes on several occasions. All the fear about the wild surge table is overreaction IMHO. Why not actually try out the class in an actual game to see how it works instead of focusing on how it looks on paper? Grab a copy of the Level One NPCs mod and switch Xzar (or anybody else) over and give it a whirl. This will let you try it on somebody other than charname so you don't have to stress about the imminent destruction of the universe some seem to expect.
@Lord_Gay this is now about crunching the numbers to see what the chances of any said effect are ie good bad indifferent. It's all well and good to try something like this but you should be aware of the chances of it blowing up in your face. In this case quite literally
Played a Wild Mage only once. From what I remember, the randomness was never a big problem. They can be really, really fun but they are also insanely overpowered at higher levels. Don't play one if you want a challenge.
Edit: Playing with Neera in BG1 would probably be fun though since you probably wouldn't be able to get Improved Chaos Shield + other high level spells. Those are really what break the class :]
@Lord_Gay: Petrify self on the PC ends the game immediately. Polymorph PC ends the game immediately. At low levels, fireball on party ends the game immediately. Sunfire on self kills your whole party, and sunfire on a party member kills you and ends the game. Gate pit fiend ends the game within a few rounds, or if you manage to survive, your reputation goes to 1 from the thing killing the population, and you lose your whole good or neutral party permanently (including Neera, btw, unless she has "evil" in her alignment; won't that be fun, when Neera tells you you're evil and leaves because of her own spell misfire). Fireball and other AoE damage spells in populated areas brings your reputation to 1, and all good and neutral npc's leave your party. Game over, unless you want to recruit and use only evil characters from then on.
I have followed a no-reload thread from a PC wild mage attempter. He lost two games to petrifying himself. He lost another game to summoning a pit fiend. He erased all his gold four times. He turned three bosses to statues or disintegrated them, and lost all their loot, including Carsomyr.
You haven't said anything that convinces me to change my opinion about this evil character class. It's for people who don't care who they kill or when they kill them, and don't care about reloads. Basically, I see all wild mages as psycho mass-murderers, with a strong suicidal bent. "I'm going to kill everybody I can possibly kill before I see I'm about to be stopped, and then I'm going to turn the wild magic on myself."
Whenever I come here to read about wild mages i always think back to "The Gamers: Dorkness Rising". Makes me laugh, I would definately try a wild mage in my group could be interesting.
My memory of going Wild Mage with BG2 is that almost every other spell I cast went wrong, and 90% out of the time it would screw me over. Not a class I had much patience for.
@belgarathmth You didn't miss much. I just gave a quick probability lesson for anyone who wanted to know how to calculate a given situation for themselves. Only, I used @CyricSpawn's numbers and those are apparently missing something? Didn't want to give out weird results, so yeah.
Anyway, no one wants to do it by hand, so I wrote a calculator that reads @fighter_mage_thief's table and spits out the odds for each roll bonus. Here you go. [spoiler=Surge Effects If Casting On A Foe]
@Lord_Gay: Petrify self on the PC ends the game immediately. Polymorph PC ends the game immediately. At low levels, fireball on party ends the game immediately. Sunfire on self kills your whole party, and sunfire on a party member kills you and ends the game. Gate pit fiend ends the game within a few rounds, or if you manage to survive, your reputation goes to 1 from the thing killing the population, and you lose your whole good or neutral party permanently,
And have you played the class? Even once? With all due respect Belgarath, why don't you try it... just once?
Will you try the Wild Mage? Will you end this fearful rage? Will you try him in a box? Will you try him with a fox (familiar)? Will you cast a fireball? Will it make you very small? Will you cast your magic missile? Will it make you lose your "whistle"? I call on you dear Belgarath, to try it out, ignore the math! This class is really not so bad, your missing out just makes me sad. The Wild Mage is loads of fun! I think *I'll* have another run. But if you choose that in the end, this class is really not for you, your ear I will no longer bend, and simply bid a fond adieu.
Xzar summoned a demon twice... we ran away. No deaths, no rep loss. I've stoned NPCs and lost their gear. I kept going. I don't reload either Belgar, in case you missed that. And as I suggested for those so concerned, try it out on an NPC instead of charname.
If you want a convincing point, consider that most of the praise in this thread comes from people who have actually played with a wild mage while most of the criticism comes from people who have never played it. Doesn't experience count for something? I thought it did, in this game.
And have you played the class? Even once? With all due respect Belgarath, why don't you try it... just once?
Will you try the Wild Mage? Will you end this fearful rage? Will you try him in a box? Will you try him with a fox (familiar)? Will you cast a fireball? Will it make you very small? Will you cast your magic missile? Will it make you lose your "whistle"? I call on you dear Belgarath, to try it out, ignore the math! This class is really not so bad, your missing out just makes me sad. The Wild Mage is loads of fun! I think *I'll* have another run. But if you choose that in the end, this class is really not for you, your ear I will no longer bend, and simply bid a fond adieu.
It depends on the personality of the players. I didn't like them very much, tried once and started a new game after a few hours. But it could be fun if the players encounter some wild magic in adventures.
@belgarathmth You didn't miss much. I just gave a quick probability lesson for anyone who wanted to know how to calculate a given situation for themselves. Only, I used @CyricSpawn's numbers and those are apparently missing something? Didn't want to give out weird results, so yeah.
Anyway, no one wants to do it by hand, so I wrote a calculator that reads @fighter_mage_thief's table and spits out the odds for each roll bonus. Here you go. [spoiler=Surge Effects If Casting On A Foe]
I'm tempted to try this out in practice, now. I did give a Wild Mage a shot once, but it was ToB, so it's not really a reliable indication (I remember I had to actually go out of my way and try over and over again to get the more negative surge results... I kept either having my spells cast normally or at double effectiveness).
It strikes me as potentially being a pretty powerful class in BG1, taking the already incredible benefits of the Ring of Wizardry and upping them to insane levels of power (Thanks to NRD, those double level 1 slots are now all Cloudkills!).
The best part of NRD, if I remember properly, is that it doesn't draw from all memorized spells, but all scribed spells. This means all those spells you learned because you thought they'd be useful, but never memorized because they're too situational? You can now call them up when the situation demands it, no problem. Also useful for those pesky moments when you're ambushed by trolls when you weren't expecting it and have no fire spells memorized (I always forget that there's a couple of them in Firkraag's dungeon, for instance).
I cleared the slaver compound today. Everyone was out of spells... Didn't want to go back out to rest. Chaos shield, nahals reckless dwoemer - summon efretti. Wild surge, spell cast normally, you feel rested. All my spells back, cleared the compound. That's why you should wild mage.
@Jalily, thanks for the tables! It shows exactly how the bonuses you can get alter the probabilities in your favor, though the wild mage will never be foolproof. Have you considered a career as an actuary?
@Lord_Gay, LOL, I love the poem! I absolutely love it! Goodness, you're creative. So, now I'm the stubborn guy from Green Eggs and Ham, am I? I grew up reading that. Looks like I didn't learn the moral of the story.
I love it when someone can turn it to good humor when I start to get too stubborn, pedantic, and/or argumentative about something. Bravo, my good friend.
Comments
My post 4 up from here I think highlights why I'm stoked now
Game over, these effects will almost certainly force a reload.
Bad, these effects cause a clear harm to your group (how much varies on situation for example turning into a squirrel while in a tavern identifying an object is still bad but not as bad as doing it in the final boss fight)
Nothing of importance, the spell fizzles goes pop and in the end there is no mechanical change. (Included here are sex change effects as well as colour change effects, after all Minsc won't hit any less hard because he is purple)
Finally good effects, this is simply stuff that helps you, I've included spell works at half duration because its still a benefit even if its not as much as you wanted also give target gem/treasure has been put here because its going to a party member or an enemy, if its the latter it's more loot very soon, which is good.
Now if your casting a spell on an Ally it breaks down like this
Game over 8
Bad 30
Nothing of importance 30
Good 29
If your casting on a foe the breakdown changes somewhat
Game over 6
Bad 14
Nothing of importance 30
Good 50
Now I'm hoping someone good at maths can turn these into stats we can use?
Also it's worth noting that on the a foe all the game over effects are below 25!
Hope this helps
One final point is that many of these situations are highly situational so I've used my best judgment but there is room for leeway. For example one effect is a monster is summoned near the target, for cast on ally I've listed this as bad however if you were we'll rested in near the guards this may just turn into a quick very easy combat. So as I say it's all very situational
Ps sorry for any errors it's very late here
Does anyone know if the the reroll ones are excluded from the actual reroll? That would simplify things a lot.
@CyricSpawn, thanks for doing some more numbers crunching. Even though I don't like the wild mage class for reasons I've stated, I still find the wild surge table to be a fascinating object of study.
1 neutral
2 neutral
3 neutral
4 neutral
5 neutral
6 bad
7 neutral
8 neutral
9 neutral
10 bad
11 bad
12 good
13 neutral
14 bad
15 good
16 bad
17 bad
18 neutral
19 bad
20 neutral
21 bad
22 bad
23 good
24 Roll twice more. Both effects apply
25 neutral
26 bad
27 bad
28 neutral
29 bad
30 neutral
31 bad if attack, normal if buff
32 good
33 good
34 neutral
35 neutral
36 good
37 neutral
38 neutral
39 good if attack, bad if buff
40 neutral
41 good
42 good
43 neutral
44 neutral
45 neutral
46 All doors in area of effect open. If there are no doors, then roll twice and use both effects
47 bad
48 Change target randomly
49 good
50 bad
51 Start snowing if outside, otherwise roll twice more
52 good
53 bad if attack, good if buff
54 good
55 good
56 good
57 neutral
58 neutral
59 neutral
60 good
61 good
62 neutral
63 Roll 4 times. All effects happen
64 good if attack, bad if buff
65 Instead of the chosen spell, a different spell of the same level goes off
66 good if attack, bad if buff
67 bad if attack, good if buff
68 bad if attack, good if buff
69 good if attack, bad if buff
70 bad
71 good if attack, bad if buff
72 good if attack, bad if buff
73 good
74 good
75 neutral
76 good if attack, bad if buff
77 good if attack, bad if buff
78 good if attack, bad if buff
79 good if attack, bad if buff
80 neutral
81 neutral
82 neutral
83 good if attack, bad if buff
84 good if attack, bad if buff
85 neutral
86 neutral
87 good if attack, bad if buff
88 good if attack, bad if buff
89 neutral
90 good
91 neutral
92 good
93 good if attack, bad if buff
94 bad if attack, good if buff
95 bad
96 good
97 good
98 neutral
99 good
100 good
Conclusion:
At wild mage 31 with improved chaos shield:
If attack: 13 neutral, 5 bad, 24 good, 2 ?????, 56@100
Total: 5 bad, 2 ?????, 13 neutral, 80 good.
If buff: 13 neutral, 16 bad, 13 good, 2 ?????, 56@100
Total: 16 bad, 2 ?????, 13 neutral, 69 good.
1) Why are people judging a class they haven't even played? It's like the other thread where the poster went on and on and on about "game-ending" situations that he had never actually experienced, never heard of, nobody reported happening to them and in the end discovered it couldn't even happen anyways.
2) There are no game ending results. Game ending means the game actually ends, not that a result happens that you don't like. Changing one's sex is not game over. Changing one's color is not game over. Losing your gold is not game over. The whole point of the class is one of chance. If any kind of negative result means you need to reload because the game is no longer fun, then the class is not for you. If you need dependability, reliabilty, and nothing negative, then the class is not for you. If you are a careful strategist who needs everybody to do EXACTLY their attacks at EXACTLY the right time in careful orchestration, then the class is not for you. If however you've played the game every which way but loose and are looking for something to spice up your game and give you something NEW in a playthrough, then the class is worth checking out.
3) I've played tutu many times and Xzar is always a wild mage. While my parties have died countless times from monsters and traps and assassins, I have never once died from Xzar's miscast. I have never reloaded any miscast, and I've lost gold and had sex changes on several occasions. All the fear about the wild surge table is overreaction IMHO. Why not actually try out the class in an actual game to see how it works instead of focusing on how it looks on paper? Grab a copy of the Level One NPCs mod and switch Xzar (or anybody else) over and give it a whirl. This will let you try it on somebody other than charname so you don't have to stress about the imminent destruction of the universe some seem to expect.
Edit: Playing with Neera in BG1 would probably be fun though since you probably wouldn't be able to get Improved Chaos Shield + other high level spells. Those are really what break the class :]
I have followed a no-reload thread from a PC wild mage attempter. He lost two games to petrifying himself. He lost another game to summoning a pit fiend. He erased all his gold four times. He turned three bosses to statues or disintegrated them, and lost all their loot, including Carsomyr.
You haven't said anything that convinces me to change my opinion about this evil character class. It's for people who don't care who they kill or when they kill them, and don't care about reloads. Basically, I see all wild mages as psycho mass-murderers, with a strong suicidal bent. "I'm going to kill everybody I can possibly kill before I see I'm about to be stopped, and then I'm going to turn the wild magic on myself."
Anyway, no one wants to do it by hand, so I wrote a calculator that reads @fighter_mage_thief's table and spits out the odds for each roll bonus. Here you go.
[spoiler=Surge Effects If Casting On A Foe][/spoiler]
[spoiler=Surge Effects If Casting On An Ally][/spoiler]
Will you try the Wild Mage?
Will you end this fearful rage?
Will you try him in a box? Will you try him with a fox (familiar)?
Will you cast a fireball? Will it make you very small?
Will you cast your magic missile? Will it make you lose your "whistle"?
I call on you dear Belgarath,
to try it out, ignore the math!
This class is really not so bad,
your missing out just makes me sad.
The Wild Mage is loads of fun!
I think *I'll* have another run.
But if you choose that in the end, this class is really not for you,
your ear I will no longer bend, and simply bid a fond adieu.
Xzar summoned a demon twice... we ran away. No deaths, no rep loss. I've stoned NPCs and lost their gear. I kept going. I don't reload either Belgar, in case you missed that. And as I suggested for those so concerned, try it out on an NPC instead of charname.
If you want a convincing point, consider that most of the praise in this thread comes from people who have actually played with a wild mage while most of the criticism comes from people who have never played it. Doesn't experience count for something? I thought it did, in this game.
Awesome poem
the Wild Mage he will not play.
Yet Sammy's cousin is a fan,
Who's that you ask, why San-d-man!
It strikes me as potentially being a pretty powerful class in BG1, taking the already incredible benefits of the Ring of Wizardry and upping them to insane levels of power (Thanks to NRD, those double level 1 slots are now all Cloudkills!).
The best part of NRD, if I remember properly, is that it doesn't draw from all memorized spells, but all scribed spells. This means all those spells you learned because you thought they'd be useful, but never memorized because they're too situational? You can now call them up when the situation demands it, no problem. Also useful for those pesky moments when you're ambushed by trolls when you weren't expecting it and have no fire spells memorized (I always forget that there's a couple of them in Firkraag's dungeon, for instance).
@Lord_Gay, LOL, I love the poem! I absolutely love it! Goodness, you're creative. So, now I'm the stubborn guy from Green Eggs and Ham, am I? I grew up reading that. Looks like I didn't learn the moral of the story.
I love it when someone can turn it to good humor when I start to get too stubborn, pedantic, and/or argumentative about something. Bravo, my good friend.