Screw it I'm taking Imoen Anyway

Reddbane

So I'm going to do a complete playthrough of the series again with Imoen as a Swashbuckler (RR Version) that duals to a Mage, then edit her BG2 stats to be what they were at the end of my BG1 playthrough (and re-edit them again once I find her spellhold with the xp boost.) But now Siege automatically removes her from the party. But this won't stop me! Gentemen, I can rebuild her, I have the portraits, I have the soundsets, I have EEkeeper! I'm going start BG1 with two characters, the Bhaalspawn and an Imoen clone, then once I leave candlekeep and real Imoen joins, I'll double check their info in EEkeeper matches (down to the biography), then kick the "real" Imoen out of the party, and play the rest of the game. This won't really effect BG1 since Imoen has no banter anyway, but once I start BG1, viola! I keep my Imoen (a version of Imoen at least); I'll just pretend all of "real" Imoen lines are coming from my Imoen, even if it does create some plot holes, it's a small price to pay to keep Imoen with me.

Mikey205

There's an option to say something emotional like "But we've been a team from the start. I mean we're adventurers." and she then opts out saying to remember she followed you from Candlekeep at the start but she can't handle more at that moment. If you watch in the pool later it shows she's worrying about your character and regrets staying behind. I thought they handled it decently, but I would have preferred her coming along.

CLsdlt80

Maybe one of the reasons for which they decided to keep her out, was to force us players to play Safana or Glint. I personally never play without at least one thief, so I played the whole game with Safana this time (1st time playthrough). Safana was an ok character, won't complaign about her, but yeah... I was wishing Imoen would be in the party.

Mikey205

Hate Safana's voice too much but Glint is pretty cool.

BelgarathMTH

Another problem is that their choice to handle Imoen takes away the player's choices in BG1 about how to encourage her. For me, I discourage the study of magic to her, saying we have other mages and we desperately need her thieving skills. That is, she always winds up as a level 8-10 thief in my BG1 games.

Other players like to dual her to mage as early as level two or three.

Of course, BG2 also erases your choices, so if we complain about it in SoD, we should complain about it in BG2, and that can't be changed.

But I do wish Beamdog had decided to write party dialogue for Imoen and give you the choice to keep her with you in SoD, especially since they had the voice actress on hand.

I like the fleshed-out Safana, which I think they did very well, but she's never been a character I like to use in BG1, and I'd rather not be forced to use her in every party I make in SoD (at least until I can get to Glint).

I wonder if they did it the way they did to avoid even further glaring contradiction at the beginning of BG2? I think their legal agreement won't let them change Imoen's starting instance in BG2, other than to add some xp, or is that right? I kind of wish they could let your choices for Imoen's class development stand throughout the trilogy. There's that problem with the Magic Missile cast to get her into trouble with the Cowled Wizards though, for people who want to keep her a thief.

I'm afraid the blame for losing Imoen through so much of the game content may rest with the original developers, instead of Beamdog. I'm not sure. I wish they'd share with us their reasoning why they felt Imoen shouldn't be playable in SoD.

SirBatince

I thought OP would use CTRL+Q. Why not do that instead?

rapsam2003

BelgarathMTH said:

Another problem is that their choice to handle Imoen takes away the player's choices in BG1 about how to encourage her. For me, I discourage the study of magic to her, saying we have other mages and we desperately need her thieving skills. That is, she always winds up as a level 8-10 thief in my BG1 games.

She starts out as a mage/thief in BG2. They had to explain that.

Reddbane

They perhaps could have written two different dialogue paths paths for Imoen at the beginning, one for if the player already Dualed her, and one for if she still a thief by the end of the vanilla campaign. If she was still a thief, Imoen could have had a conversation with the player discussing her desire to explore magic, at which point the Game would force-dual her at whatever thief level she was at. After that point the writing for her would be the same, as in both scenarios she would still be learning magic, just in one she a level 1 mage and the other a level x mage, and there would be no need to for her to leave the party.

rapsam2003

gangler said:

We could have easily just assumed she picked up magery over the course of the main BG1 campaign. That's pretty much always been implicit anyway. She's a thief -> mage in BG2 because it was a really popular option to dual her over in BG1.

Quit assuming everyone plays the same way. Just because the majority does make her a mage/thief does not mean that the devs CAN expect such. You do NOT understand how dev decisions are made if you think they can make assumptions without justification.

rapsam2003

gangler said:

It has always been implicit.

"Implicit" does NOT explain a damn thing. Implications are one thing, but explanations are another.

gangler said:

Heck, I could throw that back at you. If the Devs can't make any assumptions then they also can't assume the player kept Imoen as a pure thief through the whole BG1 campaign.

Based on what is known about Imoen, they actually can justify that decision. This idea is further strengthened by the fact that several of original designers of BG1/2 are part of Beamdog. I'd say they, if no one else, can arbitrarily decide what to do with characters.

gangler said:

What exactly is your expertise on "how dev decisions are made" anyway?

Probably has something to do with the fact that my profession is that of a software engineer and understand you can't just make changes to code (or even story) without justification. /shrug

Reddbane

Please, Please, we don't need fight to over this. I think gangler and I are more mourning over the "road not taken" in dealing with Imoen between BG1 and BG2. Canonically Imoen becomes a Mage sometime before the events of BG2, so Beamdog, in attempting to bridge the gap between games has to address at some. I personally though would have preferred some re-activity based on my build of the character in BG1, (and there is only two builds, either she duals or she does not) and regardless, I would have liked her to canonically stay in the party.

rapsam2003

gangler said:

Heck, Skie got to come along for the siege. She's learning weapons drills for the first time but she's still here and a part of all this, fighting the good fight and all that. The adventure doesn't just stop for her while she stays home and eats scones between training sessions.

She also dies, so it would make sense that they would try to further develop her character before we say goodbye forever.

Yulaw9460

Deleted.

Sids1188

Reddbane said:

.... but once I start BG1, viola!

You're turning Imoen into a giant violin? What did she do to deserve that?

Sorry, but I had to be that guy.

Permidion_Stark

I think the devs messed up badly here.

Baldur's Gate without Imoen as your companion isn't Baldur's Gate at all.

Orangemoose

I might do this too.
I can't be bothered ever using Safana again in SoD after dealing with her non-stop OOC BS.
Haven't tried Glint but is it even worth it?

rapsam2003

Permidion_Stark said:

I think the devs messed up badly here.

Baldur's Gate without Imoen as your companion isn't Baldur's Gate at all.

Opinions. They're...like assholes.

Lore

I guite like Safana and think they did a great job on her, Glint is also great and very very funny. If you do not care for Safana then i would say give Glint a try hes very worth it + hes also a cleric and more healing is always good.

Permidion_Stark

rapsam2003 said:

Opinions. They're...like assholes.

That's very witty. I wish I could think of witty stuff like that.

Orangemoose

Lore said:

I guite like Safana and think they did a great job on her, Glint is also great and very very funny. If you do not care for Safana then i would say give Glint a try hes very worth it + hes also a cleric and more healing is always good.

I don't think 17 Charisma is really reflected well in her interactions with a single person throughout the entire campaign.
I guess I can try Glint as non-humans are generally more interesting characters.

LoveViconia

Imoen learns magic from Irenicus, not from Jannath who gave her just some inputs about it. So i think Imoen could have joined the party.

Orangemoose

LoveViconia said:

Imoen learns magic from Irenicus, not from Jannath who gave her just some inputs about it. So i think Imoen could have joined the party.

Not sure why you're stating headcanon as if it were fact.

nysi

I guess a modder (even me may be when more confortable with weidu) could add her as a possible NPC
May be not for the entire Sod Campaign, but she could join later (before dragonspear)

Yulaw9460

Deleted.

Juris

Imoen is completely unnecessary because of Glint. It is pretty funny when you dual your own character at the start of SoD to hear Imoen complain about how she won't be useful because of her new class: "Don't worry sis, we'll keep this tramp Safana around until you get back on your feet. Most of the time we just gain XP by talking to people and doing fetch quests, so it doesn't matter if you can't fight"

rapsam2003

LoveViconia said:

Imoen learns magic from Irenicus, not from Jannath who gave her just some inputs about it. So i think Imoen could have joined the party.

Where's your support for this?...

Yulaw9460 said:

rapsam2003 said:

Permidion_Stark said:

I think the devs messed up badly here.

Baldur's Gate without Imoen as your companion isn't Baldur's Gate at all.

Opinions. They're...like assholes.

No. Assholes are like assholes.

Meh. The point is, opinions don't mean a thing. People get SO ANGRY and spout off so much about how "I dislike thing"*. They forgot that it's irrelevant. If they'd stop and smell the roses, they would realize the beauty that is there. If they'd just sit down and enjoy SoD as-is, they'd realize how it has a good story and is a fun game.

*"I dislike thing":

Rathenau

I do hope you can see the irony is that statement, since you posted your dislike of the way other people are expressing their option on something they dislike.

rapsam2003

Rathenau said:

I do hope you can see the irony is that statement, since you posted your dislike of the way other people are expressing their option on something they dislike.

I do hope you recognize my statement for what it is and stop trying to dissect it...

Permidion_Stark

Your statements are pretty clear and there is no need to dissect them to understand them. You think your opinion is the truth, other people's opinions are irrelevant and if anyone says anything that doesn't chime with your views you will call them an "asshole" in an oh-so-clever way that means you can deny that is what you really meant.

rapsam2003

gangler said:

If we're not gonna talk about what we like and dislike about the game, then what's left?

Enjoying the game.

rapsam2003

gangler said:

Well now you're just using synonyms.

Would their opinions be more palatable to you if they phrased it "I think the devs messed up here. Having Imoen as a companion is one of the most enjoyable parts of the game, so I don't enjoy her exclusion from the companion roster in this expansion."?

LMAO, I'm saying that if you folks would stop being so sour over Imoen, you might actually have fun.