Wizard Slayer/Thief Multi?

shylaman

I just started a new run in BGEE with a Dwarven Fighter/Thief. I plan to have Imoen, Jaheira (Khalid for awhile), Neera, Minsc or something like that. Anyhow, I thought I might test out @subtledoctor NPC EE Mod. I made Imoen a Shadowdancer since I have never used that kit before. Then I thought ... I have never tried Wizard Slayer and remember reading about a dual WS/Thief having the UAI ability later on that counteracts the WS restrictions.

Long story short, what exactly dos the WS miss out on? There are item restrictions, but I am not sure in practical in game purposes what they are. As a WS/Thief what would I miss out on in BGEE and BGIIEE until UAI? Would it be worth it? I have Wizard Slayer Rebalancing installed.

Lord_Tansheron

You miss out on anything that isn't a weapon or armor, so no rings/amulets, no belts, boots, cloaks, potions, etc.

I find it actually to be LESS of an issue in BG1 because there aren't that many powerful magic items around. It'll be hard to equip your entire party, so whatever you can't use on your WS you can just give to someone else. In BG2 the issue is more pronounced because you have a lot of stuff.

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semiticgoddess

@subtledoctor: Yup. Any bard, single-class thief, multi-class thief, or dual-class to thief gets it. The only multi-classes that do not get the HLAs of every component class are the Fighter/Mage/Cleric and Fighter/Mage/Thief, which never get level 10 mage spells.

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shylaman

Hmm. Seems like he might miss out on a lot of useful thief items actually. The boots of stealth, for example, and potions of perception come in handy with the lower leveling of the multi. Then the Mercy Killer ring amongst other goodies in BG2. Looking at thief items on-line, seems there are a lot of good thief boosting gear I'd have to pass up. Maybe it isn't sounding so good after all. Depends on far into BG2 it take to get HLAs.

Lord_Tansheron

shylaman said:

Hmm. Seems like he might miss out on a lot of useful thief items actually. The boots of stealth, for example, and potions of perception come in handy with the lower leveling of the multi. Then the Mercy Killer ring amongst other goodies in BG2. Looking at thief items on-line, seems there are a lot of good thief boosting gear I'd have to pass up. Maybe it isn't sounding so good after all. Depends on far into BG2 it take to get HLAs.

Note that the skill-boosting items are largely superfluous in BG2 because you max out skills fairly quickly. Stealth is a notable exception, though.

shylaman

I just did a test. Looks like a WS can wear magical boots. I could still equip Boots of Stealth, but not the belt that I had on. Miss out on a couple of good rings, but not bad.

One of the major pros to the kit would the 10% miscast on hit, but as others have pointed out ... if you are already hitting the wizard they are soon to be dead anyways.

Plus, wouldn't the Dagger of Venom essentially have the same effect? If getting poisoned the wizard can't cast a spell anyways, correct?

semiticgoddess

@shylaman: Wizard Slayers actually deal 25% spell failure per hit, and it's not true that being able to hit the wizard means it's doomed. The spell failure won't bypass weapon immunities (Protection from Normal Missiles, Protection from Magical Weapons, Mantle, etc), but it will bypass Mirror Image and Stoneskin, which means the WS starts disrupting spells one or two rounds before another character. And a mage only needs a single round of free casting to turn the tide of battle.

As for poison, the most recent version of EE allows concentration checks for spell disruption and also weakens Poison Weapon by making most of the damage dependent on a failed save, just like the Dagger of Venom. A mage can resist poison with a saving throw, and even if it fails the save, it still has another chance of casting the spell despite the poison. That's two chances to avoid spell disruption from poison. WS spell failure offers neither a saving throw nor a concentration check.

shylaman

On a side note I saw that Barbarian was also an option. That could be fun. Maybe a Barbarian -> Druid on the next run.

Zilber

shylaman said:

On a side note I saw that Barbarian was also an option. That could be fun. Maybe a Barbarian -> Druid on the next run.

That would be fun, if bbn was allowed a druid multi/dual class. Alas, it is not.

abacus

Zilber said:

shylaman said:

On a side note I saw that Barbarian was also an option. That could be fun. Maybe a Barbarian -> Druid on the next run.

That would be fun, if bbn was allowed a druid multi/dual class. Alas, it is not.

It can be done with eekeeper... it's apparently coded as a fighter kit. I once ran a Barbarian/Mage/Thief just for the lols. Only difficulty is that some items specifically forbid use by Barbarian, even if they'd be usable by a normal Fighter/X multi.

shylaman

Fbgtweaks are whatever it is called in its current form, allows for expanded dual class options for Wild Mage and Barbarian.

Zilber

abacus said:

Zilber said:

shylaman said:

On a side note I saw that Barbarian was also an option. That could be fun. Maybe a Barbarian -> Druid on the next run.

That would be fun, if bbn was allowed a druid multi/dual class. Alas, it is not.

It can be done with eekeeper... it's apparently coded as a fighter kit. I once ran a Barbarian/Mage/Thief just for the lols. Only difficulty is that some items specifically forbid use by Barbarian, even if they'd be usable by a normal Fighter/X multi.

Nice! I did not know this. Hmm, this may change my ranger/cleric to a Barbarian Druid

Itstucktwice

I've completed a WS/Thief full run before, and I actually shared my experience somewhere on these forums, but here is a quick summary:

WS is a neat idea in theory, the problem lies in the way high level mages are dealt with in this game. They aren't just beaten to death, they are stripped of their protections by YOUR mages and then beaten to death, and in that regard, a WS is no better at killing a mage than any other class that can chunk mages.

UAI will eventually nullify all penalties, but it takes a LONG time, and during that time you are basically playing a lackluster Fighter/Thief. The saddest bit is, even after you get UAI, you really only increase in power to match that of a standard Fighter/Thief.

TLDR: WS/Thief is fun, and easily doable, but largely lackluster.

jesterdesu

I can't agree that wiz slayers have no average over normal fighter types. Both the huge magic immunity and the stacking spell disruption are pretty hard to deal with and npc mages rarely use lower resistance ţype spells en masse.

They really are fun in the late game as about the only thing that stops them is imprisonment.

jesterdesu

Then, berserkers are arguably that strong from the start of the game...

Grum

Wizard Slayer/Thief

Grand Mastery in two handed swords. Take Carsomyr. Now dispel on every hit, apply miscast magic, and you get to load up on all the magic resistance items. The ultimate wizard killer.