Dragons without arcane caster

Artona

Hi, fellow users. Is it possible to beat dragons without mage or sorcerer or bard? I'm currently playing with an evil party: my Bhaalspawn, assassin dual-classed to warrior, fallen blackguard Dorn, Hexxat and Viconia. I took Bodhi's offer too soon, before completing Bloodscalp quest. Therefore, I don't have access to Edwin.
Right now I'm doing fine, but I wonder if that party would work against dragons.

So, my question: should I get Jan or Haer'Dalis, or is possible to deal without them?

Lord_Tansheron

If you're playing the unmodded game, you can absolutely just bash down dragons without casting any spell whatsoever. Of course, it might be harder and take longer, but it's entirely possible. Also you do have divine casters, which can help a lot.

So no, arcane casters aren't mandatory; for anything in the unmodded game, really.

RobertMcDuck

Having an Arcane caster is always good, byt as Lord_Tansheron said, they are not vital.

SirBatince

If unmodded, all you gotta do is punch the stoneskin away. If you're lazy and cheesy you can just trigger the fight, run and rest, engage again. No more spells.

rapsam2003

I mean, yeah...it's fully possible. But I also feel like it's not as fun. Letting your fighters tie up the dragons and then using Magic Missile several times is so...effective.

Mush_Mush

Druid with iron skins 2x conjure animals + Inquisitor + cleric with aerial servant + maybe some badass archers or kensai types buff them all with divine spells, potions and prot scrolls, probably go down pretty easy.

Don't think its too hard to kill dragons without arcane might. Killing them without any kind of magic however would be an impressive feat.

Edit: Actually, I suppose it depends on the dragon in question and what level your party is at. It would be impressive, for example, if you killed off Firkragg before Spellhold without magic but not so much say the dragon in Watchers Keep with a ToB party.

marzbarz

Slayer form!

Nuin

Once you become more experienced with the game you can even try fighting dragons without a mage/priest class, modded or otherwise. It will be challenging, but other people have managed to pull it off.

Just take the time to study what everybody can do so you know what your options are. And remember, you don't have to fight any of the game's dragons at low-mid levels. You can always come back when everyone has better gear/more levels.

lunar

Viconia's harm spell can bring down a dragon quite easily. You should buff her thac0, with spells and strength items, and then hope that dragon's mr won't resist it.

Sids1188

If you want to be cheesy, you can also have yourself and Hexxat cover the area with traps. Spike traps if you have HLAs. Those alone should leave the dragon in shambles.

MacHurto

Spike trap spam is no fun. I only used it on my no reload run as I was just scared of dying all the time.

In any case with access to HLAs all SoA dragons should fall easily

Mush_Mush

MacHurto said:

Spike trap spam is no fun. I only used it on my no reload run as I was just scared of dying all the time.

In any case with access to HLAs all SoA dragons should fall easily

"I was just scared of dying all the time." - Lord of Murder 2016

xD

MacHurto

Haha I would make a terrible Lord of Murder, I know :-D

Anyway, I was scared of dying at the final ToB fight and having to redo my only ever no reload from the beginning. Using the spikes was on character in any case, as my gnome had just become a dad with Aerie right before the fight and dying (and losing his essence) meant he could not become a God and escape his terrible mortal fate.

Artona

Okay, you convinced me. But if I fail horribly, it's on your heads - and fear my wrath, because it is great indeed...
I'll update my thread after Firkraag or Shadow Dragon.

And one more question - is Demogorgon killable without mage? Or that nasty party before him?

Edit: Actually, I suppose it depends on the dragon in question and what level your party is at. It would be impressive, for example, if you killed off Firkragg before Spellhold without magic but not so much say the dragon in Watchers Keep with a ToB party.

I usually do all Alkhatla quests before Spellhold, so I'll probably attempt to slay him.

If unmodded, all you gotta do is punch the stoneskin away. If you're lazy and cheesy you can just trigger the fight, run and rest, engage again. No more spells.

I am lazy and cheesy, but not that lazy and cheesy. But thanks for the advice.

If you want to be cheesy, you can also have yourself and Hexxat cover the area with traps.

I'll use it as last resort.

Thanks for tips, everybody.

Sids1188

At least if you need to, by the time you reach ToB you'll have access to a final evil NPC that can dual to mage. If you're struggling at that point (or with Watchers Keep), you will be able to fill the hole. Might not be as satisfying that way, however.

jtth

To confirm for the SCS crew: this is practically impossible with SCS, right?

Lord_Tansheron

jtth said:

To confirm for the SCS crew: this is practically impossible with SCS, right?

SCS doesn't require casters either, but it gets SIGNIFICANTLY easier if you have a caster of any kind (arcane or divine). I seem to recall reading somewhere that you can beat anything in SCS except Ascension without any caster whatsoever, but I'm not sure as I've never tried it myself.

Nuin

I've heard of people soloing Tactics and Tactics + Ascension without casters. SCS + other difficulty mods should be doable if you go with mostly AI changes, and someone out there has probably beaten it without a caster. SCS is a relatively new mod though, so there can't be that many who have done it.

jackjack

A cursory glance at google shows threads about SCS dating back to 2006, and that was just a post saying it had been updated to work with BGT/TuTu. I wouldn't call it a new mod at this point.

Nuin

Ascension is probably the closest thing to an official mod BG2 has and was released not long after ToB came out, so we won't discuss that.
The SCS you know today didn't exactly spring from the modders' minds fully formed. When Tactics was released (about 2-3 years after ToB came out) it was crude and unfair, but most of the insane difficulty content was already there. Extra revisions mostly just removed the bugs/painfully simple exploits.

IIRC, SCS was first released as a BG1 mod in 2006. Then they made a version for BG2 a while later, and have been steadily working on it (major release every few years) since then. The version people now play took years of meticulous work by modders, because the idea was that they did not want it to be as unfair as Tactics.

Lord_Tansheron

SCS is inspired by Tactics, but has the explicitly stated goal of achieving "fair" difficulty - i.e. that if at all possible, the AI should not do things the player cannot. Note however that in order to properly simulate that, the WAY in which it is done is often "unfair" - one example would be pre-buffing, which due to engine constraints is handled by having enemy casters cast a gazillion buffs at once at the beginning of combat via an (uninterruptable) script. Not fair in a technical sense, but fair in its effect as you as a player also go into a fight fully buffed.

Of course, SCS is a tactical mod intended for people who want a combat challenge. RP concerns are usually secondary (e.g. "why does the mage have pre-buffs they are at home and not expecting a fight").

lunar

Well if I were a high lvl mage staying at home in a dangerous place like Fearun, I would cast stoneskin and various armor/long lasting protection spells each morning even before brushing my teeth. And conjure up a few invisible servants to do the house chores. Oh yes that would have been perfect!
...if I was a wild mage I would probably skip the invisible servants, though. No need to risk a nabassu or exploding cow at me home.

Nuin

Reasons why you probably wouldn't do that if you actually lived on Faerun:

1) Spellcasting requires components. In some cases, EXPENSIVE components. That's why most spellcasters save their spells for actual combat.
2) Most of these spells were designed for combat. Out of combat, you are basically at the mercy of DMs.
Something like: "you stubbed your toe, -1 stoneskin" or "a mosquito tried to bite you, -1 stoneskin" or "you absently flick your hand and accidentally set the living room curtains on fire with an MMM" would be perfectly acceptable side effects for using spells like these out of combat.
3) You're a high level mage. Act like one. Install traps/alarms/magical failsafes/use contingencies and sequencers instead of walking around with full buffs like a disaster waiting to happen.

Artona

I wouldn't play with that kind of DM. "You stubbed your toe, -1 stoneskin" sounds for me like "I just wanna ruin your fun".

rapsam2003

Nuin said:

1) Spellcasting requires components. In some cases, EXPENSIVE components. That's why most spellcasters save their spells for actual combat.

And this is why any arcane caster worth their salt would have an arcane focus.

Nuin said:

2) Most of these spells were designed for combat. Out of combat, you are basically at the mercy of DMs.
Something like: "you stubbed your toe, -1 stoneskin" or "a mosquito tried to bite you, -1 stoneskin" or "you absently flick your hand and accidentally set the living room curtains on fire with an MMM" would be perfectly acceptable side effects for using spells like these out of combat.

Bahahaha, your DM must hate you.

That's why actual high level mages install traps/alarms/magical failsafes/use contingencies and sequencers instead of walking around fully buffed.
I much prefer the Ammon Jerro method. Bind a bunch of demons to my dungeon, then let jackass adventures get tricked into dying. Only fails to work if my granddaughter happens to ruin it.

Nuin

It's perfectly acceptable. Note that you are trying RP someone who is basically just waiting for some random "adventurers" to arrive and try to kill you. So you're constantly re-casting protective spells and then waiting for days, weeks, months...

I'd be surprised if your (very) bored DM wasn't already trying to roll consecutive 20s just to try and justify triggering some sort of disaster.

FinnTheHuman

I think its pretty save to RP that they heard you coming. Probably heard you chanting and casting protections right outside their door. Bunch of metal clad barbarians clanging up the stairs. Did you think you were being sneaky?

Otherguy

Why oh why would anyone play without an arcane caster? Improved haste alone is like having twice as many fighters in your party.

Granted I only play with SCS, but even so. No class is "needed" but I would definately give an arcane caster top priority. Impr haste, ruby ray, breach, secret word, true sight, various crowd control and maybe even a summon or two makes the game a lot easier and imho more fun.

Jan is a very strong NPC, I would strongly advice you to replace Hexxat with him.

The tiefling is also strong but imho he should be left in prison.

Artona

Why oh why would anyone play without an arcane caster?

Because I play evil party, and there is only one evil wizard, and I have no access to him due to dealing with Bodhi.

Nuin

The thing about arguments like these (they should hear you coming, they have scouts/scrying spells/etc) is that you could also argue that experienced adventurers have ways to get around that.

You ARE travelling with (powerful) priests, druids, mages, rogues...
I never understood why these mods make it sound like every PC party is the crass/blunt type when game gives you a lot of NPCs with thieving/diplomatic/information-gathering abilities and when spells like Invisibility 10' Radius cost a mere level 3 spell slot. Hell, if your PC is a rogue you have an entire thieves' guild branch to do all your information-gathering for you.
"When does he normally take a bath? That must be when he dismisses his Stoneskin/MMM spell..."

While I do like how SCS raises difficulty and use it anyway, the logic behind these changes is truly baffling. Granted, it would be hard to truly justify these kind of changes unless most of the enemy adventurers you fight were actually in league with someone like Bodhi all along (or were receiving intel from her).

Aewyrven

Artona said:

Hi, fellow users. Is it possible to beat dragons without mage or sorcerer or bard? I'm currently playing with an evil party: my Bhaalspawn, assassin dual-classed to warrior, fallen blackguard Dorn, Hexxat and Viconia. I took Bodhi's offer too soon, before completing Bloodscalp quest. Therefore, I don't have access to Edwin.
Right now I'm doing fine, but I wonder if that party would work against dragons.

So, my question: should I get Jan or Haer'Dalis, or is possible to deal without them?

Without reading others posts, and without having access to dorm or hexxat atm. ..

Yeah you can drop the shadow dragon and firkraag. By the time you get to the silver dragon in terms underdark you can probably drop her too using just you and viconia.

For Thalys (shadow drago) just have viconia memorize a couple of sanctuaries, protection evil, and remove fears. Then use your sin to backstab with potions of invisible.

Firkraag gonna be tougher but go hit up the inn in waukeens for the cloak of non detect and repeat through. Depending what weapons your sin is using will depend on the potions u need. (You can get fire potions easily and viconia can acid/frost resist you)

Drop some traps prior to fight (it's not too cheesy since those 2 dragons you won't have the trap of cheese)

Make sure you poison weapon as it will do the bulk of your damage through all their protections. Have viconia also buff you with strength of one if you don't have str items and bless. She can also summon a few skeletons and Ariel servants (servants if levels high enough) prior to the fight to eat the dragon death spells. (And since ur spread around the dragon it'll only hit 1 or 2 of the summons, not all of them, or you)

Key to it though is park your guys around the dragon at like a 12 3 5 9 rotation before starting. Don't just charge in.