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XCOM: Enemy Unknown

Arabus13Arabus13 Member Posts: 102
edited October 2012 in Off-Topic
This re-imagining of the classic XCOM title comes out on the 9th. Is there anyone else that has been looking at this game?

Moomintroll
«1

Comments

  • etaglocetagloc Member Posts: 349
    xcom was some of my fav games. really hope they do a good job. but EU here have to wait untill the 11. the one game i can really see myself passing some time on, before BGEE

  • ajwzajwz Member Posts: 4,122
    Undecided tbh. Underwhelming demo from what I saw of it. Probably wait for it to go on sale on steam before I get it.

  • ArkynomiconArkynomicon Member Posts: 52
    I orderd it for my PS3 because I have been missing the turnbased genera in the spotlight and the game looks like tons of fun. Can't wait to play it and base all my troops of 80's action movie-stars.

    etaglocArabus13Moomintroll
  • Arabus13Arabus13 Member Posts: 102
    I've always been fond of the turn based aspect as well. Probably a hold over from all the gold box SSI games I played in my earlier years.

  • Arabus13Arabus13 Member Posts: 102
    I've only played for about 3 hours. So far, I like it. Have to learn NOT to take cover behind burning cars as they can explode! I was worried about being restriced to only 4-6 squadmates, but so far this has not been an issue. Also, no offloading your troops from the skyranger...you land, and they deploy...much nicer.

  • ajwzajwz Member Posts: 4,122
    Gah, I caved and bought it. Now I just need to wait 3 more days for the electronic data packets to be shipped all the way across the atlantic. I hope they don't run into any pirates.

  • Arabus13Arabus13 Member Posts: 102
    ajwz said:

    Gah, I caved and bought it. Now I just need to wait 3 more days for the electronic data packets to be shipped all the way across the atlantic. I hope they don't run into any pirates.

    Slow download? Thankfully, I was able to pre-order and pre-download. Just a small patch at the onset and off I went.

  • ajwzajwz Member Posts: 4,122
    Arabus13 said:

    ajwz said:

    Gah, I caved and bought it. Now I just need to wait 3 more days for the electronic data packets to be shipped all the way across the atlantic. I hope they don't run into any pirates.

    Slow download? Thankfully, I was able to pre-order and pre-download. Just a small patch at the onset and off I went.

    Haha, I wish. More like a 6 day release date diffence between NA and the rest of the world. Already come this close to just pirating it.

  • HeimdulHeimdul Member Posts: 1
    I played the original when I was 8, in 1993 I believe(X-com UFO defense) and loved it.

    Too much emphasis on the graphics in the new game, doesn't look appealing, won't buy it.

  • HeroicSpurHeroicSpur Member Posts: 905
    X-com was such an incredibly good game, it had awesome tactical and strategic depth. Fun, hair-raising combat, squad development and progress (research, construction etc). And those are objective factors, not even taking into account the age of the damn game. It's actually quite disturbing that there hasn't been much (if any) progress improving it over 18 years. 18 years!

    Let's hope the Firaxis' version is a worthy one (although initial reviews haven't blown me away).

  • sandmanCCLsandmanCCL Member Posts: 1,389
    I decided to go with Dishonored instead.

    and HOLYCRAPTHISGAMEISSOAWESOMEOMGWORDSCANTEVENDESCRIBE

  • MoomintrollMoomintroll Member Posts: 1,481
    @sandmanCCL have you played it yet? first thoughts?

  • sandmanCCLsandmanCCL Member Posts: 1,389
    @Moomintroll Yeah, I spent about 2 or 3 hours with it yesterday.

    It's Thief meets Bioshock meets Assassin's Creed meets HL2. I list them in the order I am drawing influences from.

    I always try and do games like this non-lethal because it's more of a challenge than murdering hordes of guardsmen. It's seriously cool. It's proof that in a genre as saturated as first-person, art design is everything. It's not necessarily anything different than those other titles but the world is so engaging because of how striking it is.

    I'm absolutely digging it.

    Moomintroll
  • SilySily Member Posts: 90
    edited October 2012
    I've been playing this for the last... six hours, I believe. With good breaks between of coures (cooking and all that.) And I must say that I am -very- disappointed!

    I understand that they wanted an larger audience, but this is not the way! Don't rape all my favourite game series. You already took Rainbow Six and Ghost Recon from me, now XCOM. What's next? Right, forgot that they already defiled D&D and what not, with games like Daggerdale and... lets not go into that.

    My largest problems with the game:
    1. Give unit an order to move, it moves there (while a "fancy" third person gears of war camera pops in [yes, I disabled it from settings, it does not disable the camera for CRITS and COOL MOVINGZ.])
    Well lets move on, my character spots aliens, game gives me video of ALIEN ENCOUNTER, and then my character runs Right where I gave him the command to, he dosn't STOP and let me CHANGE MY PLANS.

    Also, while your unit is moving, you cant look elsewhere with the camera, or select other units and give them simultaneous actions, which should be possible with today's technology?

    2. The classes. Are you kidding me? "Derp, I got a level, I just became an Sniper. No, no, no, I won't touch that Assault rifle again. Nuh-uh. Give it to the next guy." Really, classes just.. don't work like this. Not in XCOM. We should have all the good old stats, and then build the soldiers around those ourselves. Sure, seeing my guy level up to 6 / 7 or something like that gave me some choises, but too much of a console RPG and not XCOM strategy.

    3. Base Building & Money. Very flawed compared to old one. Also, the money. We're talking now about dozens of dollars, not thousands. The economy of old XCOM games felt much nicer, when you built things and threw 60+k USD around for every new missile silo. Now you build a laboratory and it costs 50 USD.

    4. Turn order & surprise attacks. Only way to take an Alien out without it FIRST HAVING A TURN is to throw the sniper scout device, and then shoot the alien. You see, whenever you run into an Alien Encounter (fancy video and all, of the aliens spotting you), they get the first turn. No matter where you come from. Thus, ruining any and all chances of an organized sneak- or a surprise attack.

    5. Squad Size in missions. Yeah, with upgrades from the barracks, you get to bring SIX XCOM operatives into a mission. This just... feels seriously lacking. I mean, why? Why don't we get the same old 8 - 16 men (and armored vehicles.) It was much more complex and much more fun.

    6. Inventory. Really. Primary weapon, secondary weapon, accessory. So, what is this? My trooper can't carry more than one frag grenade without Feats? Le Sigh.


    Summary: While this new XCOM is "pleasant" and "light-hearted fun" to play, it does not stand up to it's ancestors. Anyone who is truely interested in an "planetary defense simulator" should look up Xenonauts and support that indie team instead. I know which I will pay for, thank the Gods that I got my new XCOM for free.

    Positive: The game has beautiful cutscenes and very good voice acting for them. They brought in depth and even some character development, but they wouldn't've been necessary. I would've rather taken an old XCOM with new graphics, features and what not.

    PS. I will finish this game, but then it flies off my harddrive faster than... well, it would be inappropriate to say.

    PPS. I must say that the game got one thing right. Difficulty. It punishes you, even though you play with Perfect tactics. Aliens just run out of nowhere, take one shot and boom, your best guy blows up into pieces. I of course picked the "Classic" difficulty. For XCOM veterans.

    Post edited by Sily on
  • Arabus13Arabus13 Member Posts: 102
    Sily said:

    I've been playing this for the last... six hours, I believe. With good breaks between of coures (cooking and all that.) And I must say that I am -very- disappointed!

    I understand that they wanted an larger audience, but this is not the way! Don't rape all my favourite game series. You already took Rainbow Six and Ghost Recon from me, now XCOM. What's next? Right, forgot that they already defiled D&D and what not, with games like Daggerdale and... lets not go into that.

    My largest problems with the game:
    1. Give unit an order to move, it moves there (while a "fancy" third person gears of war camera pops in [yes, I disabled it from settings, it does not disable the camera for CRITS and COOL MOVINGZ.])
    Well lets move on, my character spots aliens, game gives me video of ALIEN ENCOUNTER, and then my character runs Right where I gave him the command to, he dosn't STOP and let me CHANGE MY PLANS.

    Also, while your unit is moving, you cant look elsewhere with the camera, or select other units and give them simultaneous actions, which should be possible with today's technology?

    2. The classes. Are you kidding me? "Derp, I got a level, I just became an Sniper. No, no, no, I won't touch that Assault rifle again. Nuh-uh. Give it to the next guy." Really, classes just.. don't work like this. Not in XCOM. We should have all the good old stats, and then build the soldiers around those ourselves. Sure, seeing my guy level up to 6 / 7 or something like that gave me some choises, but too much of a console RPG and not XCOM strategy.

    3. Base Building & Money. Very flawed compared to old one. Also, the money. We're talking now about dozens of dollars, not thousands. The economy of old XCOM games felt much nicer, when you built things and threw 60+k USD around for every new missile silo. Now you build a laboratory and it costs 50 USD.

    4. Turn order & surprise attacks. Only way to take an Alien out without it FIRST HAVING A TURN is to throw the sniper scout device, and then shoot the alien. You see, whenever you run into an Alien Encounter (fancy video and all, of the aliens spotting you), they get the first turn. No matter where you come from. Thus, ruining any and all chances of an organized sneak- or a surprise attack.

    5. Squad Size in missions. Yeah, with upgrades from the barracks, you get to bring SIX XCOM operatives into a mission. This just... feels seriously lacking. I mean, why? Why don't we get the same old 8 - 16 men (and armored vehicles.) It was much more complex and much more fun.

    6. Inventory. Really. Primary weapon, secondary weapon, accessory. So, what is this? My trooper can't carry more than one frag grenade without Feats? Le Sigh.


    Summary: While this new XCOM is "pleasant" and "light-hearted fun" to play, it does not stand up to it's ancestors. Anyone who is truely interested in an "planetary defense simulator" should look up Xenonauts and support that indie team instead. I know which I will pay for, thank the Gods that I got my new XCOM for free.

    Positive: The game has beautiful cutscenes and very good voice acting for them. They brought in depth and even some character development, but they wouldn't've been necessary. I would've rather taken an old XCOM with new graphics, features and what not.

    PS. I will finish this game, but then it flies off my harddrive faster than... well, it would be inappropriate to say.

    PPS. I must say that the game got one thing right. Difficulty. It punishes you, even though you play with Perfect tactics. Aliens just run out of nowhere, take one shot and boom, your best guy blows up into pieces. I of course picked the "Classic" difficulty. For XCOM veterans.

    Strange...all the things you dislike about this game is actually a big plus for me.

    1. It's been a long, long time since I played the original XCOM, but I don't remember them stopping when they saw an alien. I could be wrong, but most of the times if they saw an alien while moving they got shot .

    2. Classes don't bother me. They have their individual strengths and weaknesses. You just can't throw 16 squad members at the problem. You have to take a balanced team.

    3. I like the new base. Never really cared for the tedium and micromanaging of having to build, staff, & defend multiple bases.

    4. Overwatch for the win. I've lured any number of aliens to their sudden and violent deaths!

    5. Again, moving 16 squad members from the skyranger and deploying them was an exercise in tedium. Sure you've got more bodies to throw at the problem. So what if you lose 5 or 6 of them along the way. With a small squad, you have to plan your moves and ensure your a** is covered.

    6. Inventory I agree with, it seems a little silly that I can only carry one (or two) grenades. It does, however, make you extremely choosy about how to equip your soldiers.

    Finally, in the old XCOM game losing a bunch of soldiers wasn't really that big a deal. I mean you had oodles of them all over the place. In this game, losing 1 or 2 (or 3!) is painful...very painful!

    That being said, the developers made it very clear that this was not going to be a graphics retool of the old XCOM game. For me (and me alone) I like this game...a lot!

  • SilySily Member Posts: 90
    edited October 2012
    Arabus13 said:

    Sily said:

    text

    1st. X-COM 1 indeed did STOP the game instantly, giving you time to think if your soldier was moving and spotted an alien. As should EVERY turn based game. There were interrupts etc. you saved action points for them, but they did not work like this new one; "Derp, you saw me, it's my turn now." -Alien

    2nd. I still vote for larger squads and Freedom of equipping your soldiers, with the old system. The new class based stuff is just crap (especially since 50% of my soldiers become "team fortress heavies")

    3rd. The new base is too simple and restricted compared to old building mechanics.

    4th. Veterans were -VERY- important in the old X-COM. You didn't want to take any hard mission without them. And you sure didn't want to kill them off carelessly.


    PS. Lets bring something new to this discussion! Retarded COVER SYSTEM and Console map design.

    No more being behind a wall mean total cover. I could understand if the enmy stripped away my cover, but now, lets imagine this. My trooper is standing on a corner, behind a wall, away from any possible fire (derp, full cover icon.) and still an alien just shoots from the street, and hits the guy THROUGH WALLS. That's not cover, that's just ridiculous dumbed down console play.

    I'll take the X-COM 1 or 3 cover system any day. Why the hell can't we even tell our troopers to Crouch? (X-Com 3 had PRONE too.) Oh derp, now we have a skill "hunker down." Magic circle of +50% defense.

    Then, map design. No more do we have large, complex maps to navigate through (I've had one -BIG- map, and that was just: Move ahead from cover to cover and deal with "encounters" as they come. Felt like a bad MMORPG dungeon rather than X-COM.)

    Every map also follows this scale: Just go FORWARD. Don't worry about those corners by your dropship, the aliens never lay such ambushes for you.

    Arabus13 said:


    That being said, the developers made it very clear that this was not going to be a graphics retool of the old XCOM game. For me (and me alone) I like this game...a lot!

    Had they done something good, I might be able to support them. But this... well, I don't know what to say. This sure is their "re-imagenation", not mine.


    PPS. While we're at it, lets bring up the old interrupt system compared to magical "overwatch"! No more time units, means no more saving points for diferent actions on interrupt turns. I usually would use my rookie to fire a few snap shots with his rifle, and THEN, WHEN THE ALIEN MOVES (and if he gets an interrupt), throw a stun grenade or put one aimed shot at the alien. What if you have multiple aliens moving? WE can't pick targets anymore even, now all four of my guys fire at the same alien without any thought of strategy, training or discipline. "AAAAGGH, It's MOVING! Kill it!"

    These new animations are also unnecessarily slow. At least my girl sniper takes a good five to nine seconds before firing (or, rather, finishing it) every time, and I have to just let go of the mouse, take a drink and wait until I can take another action.

    Post edited by Sily on
  • creator1629creator1629 Member Posts: 66
    i really loved the original x-com and have been looking forward to this, but according to several people it does seem to have a few issues. to those who have already tried it, is it worth getting even with its problems?

  • SilySily Member Posts: 90
    @creator1629

    It's worth getting. Considering the modern state of gaming.
    It's not bad, quite the opposite, but many things have been removed.
    If you enjoy strategy, you'll surely enjoy this new XCOM.

    creator1629Arkynomicon
  • awin123awin123 Member Posts: 55
    I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the abnormally high number of bugs in the game. They range anywhere from graphical glitches to flat out game breaking bugs like squads of aliens spawning in the middle of your squad randomly. You WILL get a glitch in almost every single mission you play without fail, the most common one is the Sniper Rifle bolt cycle animation being completely out of synch and you often times get the comic effect of the bolt closing by itself, funny but annoying.

    Class system is terrible - I love how I have to use a regular LMG/Sniper because for some reason heavy/sniper classes forget how to use basic assault rifles after they upgrade, yet arbitrarily the assault class can still equip them. It's ok I didn't REALLY want them to use my surplus plasma rifles anyway, oh wait... Speaking of arbitrary, rookies just get assigned a class randomly without any rhyme or reason, if you're like me and don't use any heavies and only one sniper, you're gonna have a bad time since you have absolutely zero control over who gets what class. Not that it matters because you can only have one squad of six soldiers max at any given time so you're never actually forced to think too hard about personnel.

    Combat is a mixed bag, the actual fighting itself feels satisfying but the cover system ruins it almost entirely. It's hard to figure out if this is just a bug or if that's just how cover is intended to work but you WILL get shot straight through full cover, the aliens do not give a single damn about your cover, if the computer decides that you're getting hit, you're gonna get hit end of story. Overwatch must be abused if you want any chance on later difficulties which is sad because you have zero control of the character after using it. I've had two targets appear in my FOV and got 4 interrupts, one of the aliens was flanked and the other was not, needless to say every single person that interrupted that turn shot at the non flanked alien and missed.

    Aliens themselves are nearly impossible to flank thanks to an "introduction" mechanic that gives the aliens instant control over the game when you first spot them and allows them to move to cover. Again there's no reason to think or plan a stealthy/strategic approach just run from cover to cover and use overwatch or shoot every turn until you need to reload. Speaking of reloading, your ammo is infinite and pistols don't even need to be reloaded. This ties in with the terrible and non existent inventory system, want a grenade? you can only have one and nothing else. Taking that grenade will stop you from taking a weapon scope, medkits, alien stunners, or an armor booster. Ostensibly this makes the choice more "meaningful" but in reality all it does is dumb down another aspect of the original XCOM games, you don't really need to think too hard on it either way since items are just minor bonuses either way.

    My complaints and gripes with this game could go on for pages but I'll stop it here. On its own merits this game is easily worth a 7/10 due to nice graphics and fun gameplay, while losing points due to excessive bugs, a short campaign and needless streamlining. As an XCOM game it scores about a 4/10 or so, if you want an experience even remotely close to the original XCOM games you won't find it here so don't spend your cash.

    Sily
  • SilySily Member Posts: 90
  • eksterekster Member Posts: 234
    edited October 2012
    I didn't play it too long, and while I had some fun playing it, overall, I am not happy.

    I feel it's a bit too dumbed down and just awkward.

    Rookies getting assigned a random class on level up is frustrating. My team now has 5 snipers... wasting time in missions solely to use rookies and hope they will level up to something else isn't fun. I only got 1 support that got killed and, for the life of me, I just can't seem to get another one.

    The cover system is silly. I've gotten hit through walls and obstacles far too much.

    There are a bit too many bugs, but I've mostly gotten used to it with today's standards of game publishing. (Mostly the reason why I hardly buy games anymore unless it's a big sale or I really trust the company.)

    The money feels silly. A couple of armour vests or guns cost the same as a huge lab? A rifle costs as much as a satellite? And worse of all, I can't even sell anything I make... Old games had it, so it's nothing new. Why remove something so simple?

    And I agree with the aliens' randomly appearing and always having the upper hand to be silly. You can't sneak up, you can't do much other than go and shoot and get shot at. It's also annoying that even if your soldier discovers the aliens, they will continue dashing ahead. It shouldn't have been hard to code to stop the action and re-evaluate your tactics, and it shouldn't have been over looked because the originals had it.

    I really wanted a fun turn based strategy game... but I feel like a lot of strategy was taken out of X-COM in this release.

    Sily
  • creator1629creator1629 Member Posts: 66
    @Sily cool thanks for the input man, i think i will get it

  • sandmanCCLsandmanCCL Member Posts: 1,389
    Somehow I'm not surprised the new X-COM is getting a bad rap here on these forums. Everywhere else I've seen absolutely loves the game. Some of my fellow PIH contributors are loving the new X-COM and they were enormous fans of the original.

    It sounds to me like there are a lot of victims of the overhype machine. And I've noticed that sentiment seems to ring true among this message board's goers through a lot of games.

    Seems like whenever anyone brings up Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance, Dragon Age: Origins or NWN2, people flip out and rage about how it's just "not as good" as classic computer RPGs.

    I'd advice a giant collective deep breath on everyone's parts, accept what the game is, and move on. Pick up Dishonored! I highly recommend it if you want an action-sneaky change of pace. And it's not horribly difficult so don't get mad it's not the biggest challenge out there.

  • eksterekster Member Posts: 234
    Eh, I do not see anyone needing a giant collective breath for anything as no one is overreacting or angry here. As for the hype or 'classic' RPGs... I don't think so. I heard zero hype from it and only discovered it when it came out. And as much as I wanted to play the classic X-COM, I couldn't because it was too outaded for me. I actually want a modern game... just not a dumbed down game.

  • mlnevesemlnevese Member, Moderator Posts: 9,714
    Actually the comments here convinced me not to buy the game. Sorry but if I can´t even take cover in a tactical game, it's a game breaker to me. No autointerrupting actions when an alien is found is also a no go.

    I'll wait to see if these change in a future update, if not, I may buy it when it's on sale, but not at full price.

    Sily
  • awin123awin123 Member Posts: 55

    Somehow I'm not surprised the new X-COM is getting a bad rap here on these forums. Everywhere else I've seen absolutely loves the game. Some of my fellow PIH contributors are loving the new X-COM and they were enormous fans of the original.

    It sounds to me like there are a lot of victims of the overhype machine. And I've noticed that sentiment seems to ring true among this message board's goers through a lot of games.

    Seems like whenever anyone brings up Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance, Dragon Age: Origins or NWN2, people flip out and rage about how it's just "not as good" as classic computer RPGs.

    I'd advice a giant collective deep breath on everyone's parts, accept what the game is, and move on. Pick up Dishonored! I highly recommend it if you want an action-sneaky change of pace. And it's not horribly difficult so don't get mad it's not the biggest challenge out there.

    Personally I didn't pre-order or even buy the game until a week after it came out, never looked at any of the dev footage or even really got into the game in way shape or form until I bought it so I'm no victim of the overhype, I knew the game was on the horizon but didn't even know it came out when it did.

    I do agree that a lot of people over-react when it comes to newer games but they often times bring up valid concerns/complaints especially about the games you mentioned (BG:DA, DA:O and NWN2).

    I don't personally view XCOM in a negative light but I also refuse to ignore and accept the blatant issues it has, I enjoyed the game "for what it is" but why shouldn't we expect more from games? If you're happy to throw away 70 bucks for unpolished content that's your choice and I fully respect it, but if I happen to buy a game and it has issues then I'll voice my concerns and advise others to keep those issues in mind before they purchase the game.

    The arbitrary class system, complete lack of an inventory, small squad size, and abnormally high amount of bugs still in the game more than a week after release might very well be deal breakers for some people. Blind purchasing has become rampant in the last few years and it needs to stop, people have a right to make informed decisions when spending money and I'm happy to aid that even if it makes me look like a rage mongering monkey.

  • ArkynomiconArkynomicon Member Posts: 52
    I'm rather enjoying Xcom as a newbie to the series. It's a lot harder then I thougt it would be, though. Loving how attached you get to your A-team and how deathprone they are.

  • scriverscriver Member Posts: 1,825

    Somehow I'm not surprised the new X-COM is getting a bad rap here on these forums. Everywhere else I've seen absolutely loves the game. Some of my fellow PIH contributors are loving the new X-COM and they were enormous fans of the original.

    It sounds to me like there are a lot of victims of the overhype machine. And I've noticed that sentiment seems to ring true among this message board's goers through a lot of games.

    Seems like whenever anyone brings up Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance, Dragon Age: Origins or NWN2, people flip out and rage about how it's just "not as good" as classic computer RPGs.

    I'd advice a giant collective deep breath on everyone's parts, accept what the game is, and move on. Pick up Dishonored! I highly recommend it if you want an action-sneaky change of pace. And it's not horribly difficult so don't get mad it's not the biggest challenge out there.

    It's just not as good as the classic Thief games.

    Sily
  • sandmanCCLsandmanCCL Member Posts: 1,389
    scriver said:


    It's just not as good as the classic Thief games.

    Sigh.

    I really, really don't like other gamer's viewpoints sometimes. :(

    It was NEVER meant to be Thief. It's a totally different game. You can draw comparisons, but while Thief is probably better at the stealthy stuff, the combat in that was never really satisfying. The point to Dishonored is there are very, very drastically different gameplay styles, both of which are fun on their own, or combined. It's also gorgeous and immersive.

    It bothers me people are so focused on comparing things that have no business being compared.

    Maybe it stems from being a (really good) video game salesman for many years, but I'm of the mind if you don't like something because it's not your thing, say it's not your thing. Pointing out bugs and stating which you prefer is fine, but "not as good as" is a pure opinion standpoint stated as fact. (Dishonored is a vastly superior game to the old Thief titles from a technical standpoint. I happen to enjoy the story a lot more, and oh god the combat is INFINITELY more immersive and satisfying.)

    I happen to hate the old XCOM games. There, I said it. They were impenetrable and obtuse and unplayable without the game manual right next to you. The "needless" streamlining of the new one appeals to me. I wish the line of sight was better, and I wish the bugs with clipping between planes was fixed (nothing more infuriating than trying to walk behind a window looking out from a building and having the camera magically warp to the outside of the building for whatever reason.)

    It's hardly perfect, but it's still a good game. The best part: Anyone really curious about it can play the demo. It features enough of the title if you were apprehensive or not, actually getting your hands on it will tip the scale one way or the other.

    The only reason I'm making a big deal about this is I guarantee we'll hear this kind of stuff when BG:EE gets released. Reviewers wondering "What's the point?" or "It's not as good as the original" or other types of nonsense. I think I'm getting an ulcer already in anticipation.

    ArkynomiconDrugar
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