Ranged Weapons

MikeMasters

How popular are ranged weapons among players? I personally never really got into using them, I would maybe have my mage or a their use them but that was more for keeping them out of harms way. I never really used a true archer before and wondered if im alone? If so what am I missing out on?

Jolanthus

All my characters have ranged and melee weapons. It makes for more rounded combat from my party.

MikeMasters

I can imagine it would be useful against a mage for example, but what other reasons would you have for preferring ranged over melee?

Jolanthus

I play so it pauses whenever an enemy is sighted. I can target them with with six missile weapons and if they all hit, not much is going to be left standing after one, perhaps two volleys. To quote the Justicar "If your opponent is hitting back, you're doing something wrong."

Grieg

fast kill easy opponents, especially when they are fleeing, another reason is to have an archer or ranger who very like bows (Kivan for example) and "the keeping them out of harms" is also a pretty good reason, there are those fancy crossbows too like mentioned in manual: heavy crossbow of accuracy or light crossbow of speed, you can also add any effect to weapon you like (for instance the bolt of lightning or arrow of fire, or wonderful arrow of instant kill ogre-mage), also ranged weapons are generally useful for attacking enemies when they are in area effect of spells (cloudkill, [and the other cloud, but can't remind it in English]). Ranged are also useful when you find a trap and cant have thief in front of party to disarm it because enemies are charging, so useful when enemies are getting closer (few shots always are helpful)
There are also those stupid tactics that I sometimes use: 1 char for luring monsters - specialist runner, and others are firing arrows, bolts and rocks into opponent.

Permidion_Stark

I would never make my PC rely on ranged weapons. They seem far too unheroic. I want to fight toe-to-toe with a sword in my hand. However, missile weapons are very effective in BG so I equip most of the NPCs with them. The clerics end up using slings but from a role-playing point of view I really dislike this. I just can't see a cleric in plate armour using a peasant weapon like a sling. BG really needs some throwing hammers.

MikeMasters

ive played BG2 alot more then BG1 and usually I rely on magic for ranged attacks. From my experience, magic is not so overpowered in BG1 so I can imagine ranged weapons being very useful when fighting smarter AI from SCS for example.

Zwiebelchen

Archers are actually a really awesome kit. I once played an archer in BG2 and it literally kicked... pierced butts.
Not only do archers get the highest THAC0 that is possible in the game, but they are also decent melee characters (being a ranger and such) for those enemies that are immune to missile weapons.

I always equipped almost all of my characters with ranged weapons, simply because it actually makes stationary and AoE spells worth using in close combat. Send your meatshield in, possibly buffed with fire resistance or magic resistance and free action, then throw in some webs and clouds and nuke the shit out of everything from distance. Also almost all of the mages and clerics in BG2 got a high dexterity, so that ranged was almost always the better option for them.
There are so many useful ranged weapons in the game: think about the throwing knifes and darts that return into the hand of the user again (especially the underdark has some pretty awesome ones in stock).

All in all, it totally makes sense to go ranged.

I think in my BG:EE playthrough, I will pick an archer and use Rasaad (magic resistance piled up monk anyone?) as my main meatshield and let all other characters use ranged weapons for cheese.

MikeMasters

Thanks @Zwiebelchen you have inspired me to give an archer a try. I would love to change the tactics I use in combat to get something new from the game

Jaxsbudgie

Permidion_Stark said:

I would never make my PC rely on ranged weapons. They seem far too unheroic. I want to fight toe-to-toe with a sword in my hand. However, missile weapons are very effective in BG so I equip most of the NPCs with them. The clerics end up using slings but from a role-playing point of view I really dislike this. I just can't see a cleric in plate armour using a peasant weapon like a sling. BG really needs some throwing hammers.

I always have the 'weapon styles for all' mod component installed but restrict myself in terms of who can use what. I tend to give Viconia a crossbow since in Drow lore, they're quite proficient in them. Mages tend to get crossbows too and Druids sometimes might get a bow, depends on how fruity I'm feeling. I think third edition got it right with weapon restrictions.

Permidion_Stark

Jaxsbudgie said:

I always have the 'weapon styles for all' mod component installed but restrict myself in terms of who can use what. I tend to give Viconia a crossbow since in Drow lore, they're quite proficient in them. Mages tend to get crossbows too and Druids sometimes might get a bow, depends on how fruity I'm feeling. I think third edition got it right with weapon restrictions.

I don't know that mod but it definitely sounds like something I should try. I dislike slings so much that I generally give my mages throwing daggers but they get through them so fast that it creates all kinds of problems. There have been a few occasions where I haven't noticed that my mages have run out of daggers and so they have waded unarmed into melees. Not a good idea when you've only got 6HP.

scriver

Permidion_Stark said:

I would never make my PC rely on ranged weapons. They seem far too unheroic. I want to fight toe-to-toe with a sword in my hand. However, missile weapons are very effective in BG so I equip most of the NPCs with them. The clerics end up using slings but from a role-playing point of view I really dislike this. I just can't see a cleric in plate armour using a peasant weapon like a sling. BG really needs some throwing hammers.

Slings, peasant weapons? The Ancient Greeks would like to have a word with you.

Also, hammers are totally peasant weapons. Even more so in BG since they're pretty much war mallets and not actual warhammers.

AHF

Pretty much everyone uses ranged weapons some for me in BG1. Most of my fighters are not proficient in them but with the good dex scores it really doesn't matter since they hit quite often. I save the proficiency slots for things more useful in BG2/TOB. I will have to give the archer kit a try, though.

Permidion_Stark

scriver said:

Permidion_Stark said:

I would never make my PC rely on ranged weapons. They seem far too unheroic. I want to fight toe-to-toe with a sword in my hand. However, missile weapons are very effective in BG so I equip most of the NPCs with them. The clerics end up using slings but from a role-playing point of view I really dislike this. I just can't see a cleric in plate armour using a peasant weapon like a sling. BG really needs some throwing hammers.

Slings, peasant weapons? The Ancient Greeks would like to have a word with you.

Also, hammers are totally peasant weapons. Even more so in BG since they're pretty much war mallets and not actual warhammers.

When the Ancient Greeks come to have a word with me I suspect it will be because they want to tell me they agree. Their slingers were drawn from the peasant populations of rural, hilly areas like Rhodes, Achaia and Akarnania. If you were a citizen of any standing you fought as a hoplite with spear and shield.

And the hammer may have started as a peasant weapon but it was adapted and adopted by medieval knights; the same can't be said of slings.

rexreg

all of my characters in BG1 are ranged specialists; only 1 ends up being optimized for melee (point man)...if you kill the baddies afore they can get into melee w/ you...you've won...
in BG2, i've found having balanced characters is more effective; point man is again focused on melee stuff & everyone else is balanced...

PRH2

In Bg1 I like to run 2 heavy melee 2 ranged and 2 casters for a well rounded party

Quartz

Ranged weapons *rock* in Vanilla BG1. I take it you play that damnable TuTu?

bbear

For me, it's all about damage control. 5 npcs using ranged weapons/spellcasting and 1 tank kites around the opponents. Mages cast area effect spells that can at most harm the tank. Archers get 1 additional attack per round. Also, there are enough potions for the solo tank and my cleric doesnt bother w/ memorizing healing spells.

Fighting_Ferret

You can't make a better purchase in vanilla BG1 than to buy a composite bow right out of the gate... I've killed the ogre with the belt fetish at level 1 with 5 shots and the first assassin (Tarnesh) with 3, the first canceling out his mirror image.

CaptRory

Ranged Weapons are always pretty darn good just because you can hurt nasty things while not getting too close. It's just that in BG2 there are a lot of things that can really hurt ya at range with special abilities or strong counter-fire. But that's where a well balanced party comes in. "Uh oh. Umberbulks. Cast Cloudkill, shut the door, then focus fire on that troll at range before sending the guy with the fire sword in to execute it."

ARKdeEREH

I favor dual-wielding an axe and a bastard sword in BG2, but if I get into a situation where it's dangerous to confront enemies up close I'll use a longbow instead. My PC is pretty tough and I prefer the axe/sword combo, so I don't use the bow very often, but it's been really useful on occasion.

Brude

In BG1, everybody has a ranged weapon except my designated "piñata," a heavily armored fighter role usually filled by Kagain, Minsc, or Ajantis.

In BG2, the fighter types used melee weapons for the most part, while caster used ranged when spells weren't required for the kill.

Dragonspear

I've played through BG1 the following ways (Cavalier, Paladin and at least 1 other to the Werewolf Island, beat Sarevok with a ranger and a paladin).

Cavalier and my current fighter/mage who is meant to emulate an elven bladesinger did not use any ranged weapons. There is a significant disadvantage when playing like this as early level control spells such as web and entangle lose a lot of effectiveness and you end up having to stop your characters short of them.

The counter to this in BG1 is I think one run every person in my party had a ranged weapon. Not only does this allow you to kill a few nastys before they're in range, if you enjoy spells like web and stinking cloud (both of which are phenomenal cc spells btw), you drastically increase the amount of tactics you have available to you. Put another way, it's one thing to kill 2 out of 8 ogres before they get to your party. Its quite another to kill all 8 ogres that get to your party because once they make the save you focus fire them down. Honestly playing with a ranged weapon on every character is extremely beneficial, especially to earlier players of BG1.

Finally, if you have a high dex score (Elf/Halfling are best here but even 18 dex is good) and use either bows (elves) or slings (halflings) you get amazing thaco and better APR than with a melee weapon. So not only are you putting more attacks into the fray, you're more likely to land them. In a game like BG1 where even a fighter/paladin/ranger/barbarian/blackguard have at best 12 normal thac0 (assuming I did my math right normal Thac0 is 20 and those classes get -1 thaco per level). Now lets break things down further

Melee:
Thac0 level 1: 19
Thac0 Level 8: 12

Strength of 18/51 or higher:
Thac0 level 1: 17
Thac0 level 8: 10

Weapon Enchantment
Thac0 level 1: 16 (dagger +1 and quarterstaff +1 are both easy enough to get while still being level 1)
Thaco level 8 (assume +2 weapon): 8

Racial Bonus:
Thac0 level 1 as an elf using a Large Sword (Category): 16 (you'll probably be level 2 before you find or can afford a +1 longsword, +1 bastard sword or kill the hobgoblin that has the Two-Handed Sword +1)
Thac0 level 8 as an elf using a Large Sword (Category) and one of the +2 weapons: 6

Gauntlets of Weapon Expertise/Skill:
+1 Thaco

Thac0 Level 8 as an elf using a Large Sword Category weapon with a +2 enchantment and Gauntlet of Weapon Expertise or Skill: 5

*cue jeopardy music as he boots up a fresh game of BG1 with an elven fighter to test goodies*

Ranged:
Thac0 Level 1: 19
Thac0 Level 8: 12

With 19 Dex:
Thac0 Level 1: 16
Thac0 Level 8:9

Weapon Enchantment:
Thac0 Level 1: 15 (Composite Longbow +1 comes with a bonus +1 to hit. Granted with EE it will require minimum 18 strength to use)
Thac0 Level 8: 6 or 7 (Former if you use Longbow of Marksmenship, latter if you use Composite Longbow +1)

Racial Bonus (elf Bows, halfling slings):
Thac0 Level 1: 14 (fairly certain this is 15 for halflings until they buy a sling +1)
Thac0 Level 8: 5 or 6

Bracers of Archery (+2 ranged thac0):
Thac0 Level 8: 3 or 4

Arrows +2
Thac0 Level 8: 1 or 2

Once you add in something such as Mastery or High Mastery you can easily get into negative numbers. If you're an archer on top of that, you're deeply into negative numbers, meaning that you won't just hit targets that are unarmored and with a dex of 14 or less on every roll that's not a critical miss, you'll soon start hitting armored targets as well.


Now to give us more perspective, lets add damage and attacks per round into the mix.

Longsword +2 Varsconia: 1d8+2 damage, +1 cold damage.

Minimum Damage:
4-12 damage.

Extra damage from strength (assuming your a fighter and you use the +1 strength tome on yourself). I believe this is +7 from 19 strength.

11-19 damage. Now you get 2 full attacks per round at level 7 so you're looking at roughly 22-38 damage per round.

That said (beware, guessing here) you're probably only going to connect with every other attack but we'll give you the benefit of the doubt, you're a bhaalspawn so you ALWAYS hit your mark.

Total: 22-38 damage in one round

Composite Longbow +1:
(Adds +3 damage)

Arrow +2:
1d6+2

6-11 damage per round. Lucky for our melee fighter, our dex doesn't give us any additional damage per round so we're stuck at 6-11. BUT! we get an extra attack per round.

Possible Damage per round (3 attacks):
18-33

Furthermore, we don't have to worry about the mythical "OMG IM A BHAALSPAWN ILL ALWAYS HIT" illusion and know with a significant degree of certainty that our attacks will hit about 25% more often than those of our melee brethren.

So in conclusion (now that I've rambled and theory crafted even more than I intended to), ranged weapons are EXTREMELY useful in the Baldur's Gate 1 campaign and even through most of BG2 until you're finally saturated with enough fighter levels that the Thac0 difference between the two is so negligible because your thaco is so high that it doesn't matter. (And that melee weapons and strength bonuses are more prevalent so the damage gap becomes wider, add in the special bonuses of many melee weapons and they finally pass are missile throwing friends).

That said, having to keep 1 character inventory full of arrows REALLY sucks. And sorry for the rambling.

MikeMasters

@Dragonspear Awesome analysis! I think its clear that I need to have a ranged weapons NPC in BG1, now the only question is which NPC is best?

Jolanthus

Permidion_Stark said:

I would never make my PC rely on ranged weapons. They seem far too unheroic. I want to fight toe-to-toe with a sword in my hand. However, missile weapons are very effective in BG so I equip most of the NPCs with them. The clerics end up using slings but from a role-playing point of view I really dislike this. I just can't see a cleric in plate armour using a peasant weapon like a sling. BG really needs some throwing hammers.

Maybe ask Goliath how he feels about slings. Very under rated weapon, easily concealed, quick to load and fire. Still causes massive bruising under armour when using lead bullets. Plus a range only rivaled by composite bows and English Longbows.

Permidion_Stark

Jolanthus said:

Permidion_Stark said:

I would never make my PC rely on ranged weapons. They seem far too unheroic. I want to fight toe-to-toe with a sword in my hand. However, missile weapons are very effective in BG so I equip most of the NPCs with them. The clerics end up using slings but from a role-playing point of view I really dislike this. I just can't see a cleric in plate armour using a peasant weapon like a sling. BG really needs some throwing hammers.

Maybe ask Goliath how he feels about slings. Very under rated weapon, easily concealed, quick to load and fire. Still causes massive bruising under armour when using lead bullets. Plus a range only rivaled by composite bows and English Longbows.

I didn't say they weren't effective. I said I disliked them from a role-playing point of view. I don't like having guys in plate armour using slings (don't much like them using bows for that matter).

The whole point of the David and Goliath story is that Goliath was an armoured fighting man who was defeated by an unarmoured youth. David turned down the offer of Saul's armour and went into battle taking only the sling that he used to defend his flock while working as a shepherd. It was a peasant's weapon in Biblical times as well as in the Middle Ages.

Isair

Would of been much more shock & awe if he'd rode in on a dinosaur.

@Dragonspear detailed! Though it's only fair to mention that there's a vast range of arrows that add much more devastating damage than +2 in BG, such as acid arrows & arrows of det. The potential damage per-round can reach even higher.

@MikeMasters I highly recommend using ranged weapons on your next play-through, alot of melee only foes can be dropped before they manage to reach your party & if they do unleash the long sword - they're already pockmarked with arrows & it won't take much to drop them.

moody_mage

Using a bow usually grants you extra APR compared against melee weapons. I just soloed through BG1 with a F/M/T and mages must of hated me - everytime they tried to cast I would disrupt them over and over.

Dragonspear

@Isair

You're correct I didn't and I'm sorry for that. In my current playthrough I have not unlocked Baldur's Gate proper yet for some of those arrows, not to mention I had already seen that I am rambled on a lot. But yes BG1 with things like arrows of detonation or dispelling makes them just that much more powerful.

Quartz

MikeMasters said:

@Dragonspear Awesome analysis! I think its clear that I need to have a ranged weapons NPC in BG1, now the only question is which NPC is best?

@MikeMasters Kivan and Coran are both excellent.
Kivan - Class Ranger - Excellent bowman, can also hold his own in melee since he has 18/12 strength.
Coran - Class Fighter/Thief - Even better bowman, but he's not that great in melee.

Also Kivan can be picked up really early whereas Coran is in Cloakwood.

ryuken87

@Dragonspear
Few things - Base thac0 for level 1 characters is 20 http://playithardcore.com/pihwiki/index.php?title=Baldur's_Gate:_Progression_Charts and Arrows +2 don't give a damage bonus, only thac0. Don't think you factored in proficiency bonuses to the final numbers either. Probably best to just give the average numbers rather than a range too.