can cleric fighter multis dual wield?

alaundo

Title says it all, is this possible with BG EE?

Cheesebelly

Seeing as the game uses the BG2 engine, then literally everyone can dual wield with the exception of monks. But any multiclass (or dual class) with fighter can put three points in dual wielding, so yes

kamuizin

Why not? But only Anomen can Grandmaster as a fighter/cleric, everyone else just specialize (2 stars), so your char in long term gonna probally be more versatile than expert in weapons (but that only matter if you pretend to import this character later to BG II).

Dragonspear

@Kamuizin

I'd have to double check and make a character in BG2, but I'm fairly certain someone determined in the solo no reload thread that any character that dual classes fighter to something else is capable of reaching Grand Mastery in their weapons. Apparently its a bug in the engine.

kamuizin

I make an test now, you're right @Dragonspear, in fact dual class fight/cleric can reach more than 2 proficience points but multi-class fighter/cleric can't get past 2 proficience points.

Dragonspear

Thanks for testing that so quickly @Kamuizin. I'm fairly certain it applies to all fighter duals but ya its definitely something due to the engine itself and unfortunately it means that multis can't. *Sigh* Yet another reason I often like installing the mod that allows my multi-classes to reach Grand Mastery

Cheesebelly

Any fighter dual-class can reach Grand Mastery, which, as far as I know, is something that wasn't intended.

For instance, create a fighter in BG1 and dual class him or her, into any class. In BG2, you'll be asked to pick the inactive's class kit. During the character creation, you'll also be asked the inactive class' proficiency points - if your class picked was Berserker or Kensai, you can still reach Grandmastery with ranged weapons - something that you normally shouldn't be allowed to do. (but once you get to your active class proficiency, you won't be able to reach grandmastery in ranged anymore)

So I believe the system was severely scratched on the inside and the outside (keep in mind that a Tutu or BGT install will allow you to go as far as high mastery with a Fighter on level 1, another thing that wasn't intended to happen)

Amardarial

So question is, will BG:EE fix the dual class fighter Grand Mastery bit?

sandmanCCL

THeoretically, what I'd like to see is something limiting the amount of pips you can put into anything based on fighter level. Like, you can't get 3 pips until you're level 3 fighter, can't get 4 til you're at 6, can't get 5 til you're at 9. It'd coincide with a solo fighter's ability to hit grand mastery. If you dual-classed from fighter at 9 and got grand mastery in a bunch of weapons after that, sure whatever I'm down with it. But if you only did it at 7, no more than 4 in anything. It'd help keep dual-classing from being a clear-cut better choice than multi-classing.

Cheesebelly

@sandmanCCL : agreed, although we also need to keep in mind that multiclass warriors also get Whirlwind or Critical Strike, or Hardiness for that matter, which Dual-Class don't get.

But balancing purpose or not, the rule is simple - proficiency points should be capped depending on fighter level, true. BG1 did this, Icewind Dale 1 did this, I don't see why BG2, or better, the BG2 Infinity Engine shouldn't do it.

kamuizin

Dual from fight level 2 to another class in any game is always an advantage, unless you pretend to play a kit. So in the old BG Dual was an requeriment more than a possibility.

sandmanCCL

Cheesebelly said:

@sandmanCCL : agreed, although we also need to keep in mind that multiclass warriors also get Whirlwind or Critical Strike, or Hardiness for that matter, which Dual-Class don't get.

But balancing purpose or not, the rule is simple - proficiency points should be capped depending on fighter level, true. BG1 did this, Icewind Dale 1 did this, I don't see why BG2, or better, the BG2 Infinity Engine shouldn't do it.

It didn't, though. I thought if you had any fighter levels at all, you could still go as high into a proficiency as you wanted.

I would just like to see multi-class guys get the benefits they should be able to get out of weapon proficiency.

Wanderon

Wasn't the rule about multi-classed fighters not getting more than 2 pips in a weapon directly related to the D&D rule? And if it was - wasn't the reasoning behind it to help balance the fact that the characters were already becoming more powerful as a result of progressing in two (or more) classes at once and/or to leave some reason/advantage for anyone to want to become a straight fighter?

Felix

Maybe one of you can answer a question that has been bugging me and has kept me from playing multiclass characters; How much slower does a multi-class level up compared to dual-class and/or a single class?

ginger_hammer

just look at the XP tables and add them up. Multi-class is like progressing in parallel, while single and dual-class are in serial.

moody_mage

On average they are about 1 level behind. So a Level 6 Fighter would be around a 5th level fighter / 5th level cleric if they were a F/C instead.

Roughly.

AHF

Felix said:

Maybe one of you can answer a question that has been bugging me and has kept me from playing multiclass characters; How much slower does a multi-class level up compared to dual-class and/or a single class?

That is an easy question. Multiclasses divide the experience between each class. Dual class is like single class for leveling up and so the XP depends on when you dual class:

So here are examples with 50K experience:

Single Class Fighter
50K - 6th level

Single Class Thief
50K - 7th level

Dual Class Fighter / Thief
36K / 14K = 6th level fighter (inactive) / 4th level thief
9K / 41K = 4th level fighter / 7th level thief

Multi-Class Fighter / Thief
25K / 25K = 5th level fighter / 6th level thief

Multi-Class Fighter / Mage / Thief
13K / 13K /13K = 4th level fighter / 4th level mage / 5th level thief



With 150K experience:

Single Class Fighter
150K - 8th level

Single Class Thief
150K - 9th level

Dual Class Fighter / Thief
75K / 75K = 7th level fighter / 8th level thief
36K / 114K = 6th level fighter / 9th level thief
9K / 141K = 4th level fighter / 9th level thief

Multi-Class Fighter / Thief
75K / 75K = 7th level fighter / 8th level thief

Multi-Class Fighter / Mage / Thief
50K / 50K /50K = 6th level fighter / 6th level mage / 7th level thief


With 1M XP:

Single Class Fighter
1M - 12th level

Single Class Thief
1M - 14th level

Dual Class Fighter / Thief
75K / 925K = 7th level fighter / 14th level thief
36K / 964K = 6th level fighter / 14th level thief
9K / 991K = 4th level fighter / 14th level thief

Multi-Class Fighter / Thief
500K / 500K = 10th level fighter / 12th level thief

Multi-Class Fighter / Mage / Thief
333K / 333K /333K = 9th level fighter / 10th level mage / 11th level thief

jolly_bb

all true in the stats above. basically the multiclass starts to be less fancy in some respects later in game (bg2), e.g. multi cleric will not be able to kaboom liches with turn undead, while dualled or singleclass - will.

but other than than the sole reason not to multi are kits

Silence

@Felix:

In BG1: Your multi-class characters will only be 1 level lower or less than your single-class characters. So MC characters have almost the same power but twice the ability set of SC characters. Due to the low XP cap, multi-classing is awesome in BG1, because the disadvantages of multi-classing are comparatively minimal until much later levels (9+).

In BG2: Your MC characters will usually be between 2-7 levels lower than your SC characters, depending on the point in the game and the class you choose. The further in you are into BG2, the stronger the SC character becomes. The difference is probably most important for casters as your character level will determine the spell level you can access.

(removed part about ToB)

AHF

Silence said:

@Felix:

In TOB: Your MC characters be 5-7+++ levels behind your SC characters. Eventually, if you were to accumulate a ton of experience, your MC character will be half the level of your SC character!

Yep, although that doesn't mean you won't get the better of it through the versatility of the HLA's, though. At that stage, additional levels don't mean much for the thief and fighter compared to additional HLAs. Spellcasters are a different story.

kamuizin

Even rangers and paladins does not benefir too much from a single class character. For this reason that maybe some "feats" should be introduced in the game. Nothing hardcore of course but if a fighter could do something more than just click and attack i would be very happy. Something simple, no more than 10 to 15 options to each class, nothing like the tons of feats existent in NWN serie, just something new to be done.

Ps: THe HLAs are somehow epic feats, and this wouldn't be the first 3°ed thing introduced on the game.

Silence

- wrong

kamuizin

I meant 3°ed stuff in that post, and more even in reason of the 2° ed stuff lock in BG some feats should be added.

ryuken87

At higher levels, it's also worth considering that the gains of some single classes will be negligable after a certain point.

E.g. A thief will have all the skills he will ever need before level 30, a mage gains no spell slots after level 27, a fighter's thac0 does not improve after level 21.

So once you are at a high level, there is no disadvantage to a F/T multi versus a single class fighter or thief for example.

AHF

Silence said:

However, it should be pointed out that that the SC character receives more HLAs than the MC character (by the XP cap in TOB, the SC character receives almost double the HLAs).

Not sure where you come up with this.

Here is a comparison of a multi versus single class with an 8M cap:

Single Class Paladin
Gets first HLA at 3M XP - LVL 18
Caps out at LVL 34
= 17 HLAs

Multi-Class Cleric/Thief
Gets first HLA at 3.08M - LVL 14 / 17 (thief level triggers first HLA)
Caps out at LVL 25 Cleric and LVL 28 thief
12 Thief HLA + 11 Cleric HLA = 23 HLAs

With these builds, the SC character gets fewer HLAs and only picks from 1 class whereas the multi-class gets a broad selection and more picks. This makes sense because a Paladin or Ranger gets a HLA every 300K while a Thief/Cleric goes at a rate slighlty higher than 2 HLAs every 450K.

Which character gets more HLAs will depend on the classes selected but the multi always gets more to pick from.

Silence

-wrong

AHF

Silence said:

@AHF: My assumption is that you're comparing a SC character (Fighter) to an MC character of similar composition (eg: Fighter/Mage, Fighter/Cleric, Fighter/Thief). The poster above asked how much slower an MC character progressed than a DC or SC character...in my mind, he was asking me to compare similar class combinations.

In your example - and yes you're right - the MC character gets more HLAs, but that's because the MC character is a MC part thief and part cleric. Cleric and thief are the two of the fastest leveling classes in the game, whereas Paladin is one of the slowest. I've again edited above....hopefully for the last time.

There isn't much difference with similar classes as well - these are all for 8M:

Single Class Fighter
21 HLA

Multi Fighter/Thief
23 HLA (11 fighter/12 thief)

Multi Fighter/Mage
18 HLA (11 fighter/7 mage)

Multi Fighter/Mage/Thief
21 HLA (7 fighter/6 Mage/8 thief)

When you say:

the SC character receives almost double the HLAs

that is pretty far off the mark.

Silence

Oh wow. I thought a thief only received HLAs when exceeding level 23. It turns out I made a major error, and neglected to account for the fact MC characters getting access above the XP cap rather than at the appropriate level. I'm not going to bother correcting my above post, it's pretty much unsalvageable.

AHF

Silence said:

Oh wow. I thought a thief only received HLAs when exceeding level 23. It turns out I made a major error, and neglected to account for the fact MC characters getting access above the XP cap rather than at the appropriate level. I'm not going to bother correcting my above post, it's pretty much unsalvageable.

Not a problem at all. I have learned plenty new info on this forum!

kamuizin

Instead of only High Level Abilities, aka HLA, we could gain some abilities also (besides of the few kit specific abilities that exist as kai, enrage, poison weapon...).

Example of Suggestions:

-power attack - fighter class ability/active for 5 rounds - make an attack with -5 on thac0, if the attack hit, double the strengh damage bonus.
-greater power attack - fighter class ability/active for 5 rounds - make an attack with -8 on thac0, if the attack hit multiply the strengh bonus damage x3.
-knockdown - fighter class ability/click on target to use - touch ability where the target must make a save x (choose a save), if fail he's knocked down on the ground for 1/2/3 rounds, magic protections (as stoneskin, immunity to magical/normal weapon, mantle spells) does not stop this ability, it can be used agains semi-invisible targets with a +2/4 bonus to their save.

- Nature's shadow - ranger class ability/active for 5 rounds - a ranger can use hide in shadows even in the sight of the enemy in wild areas, after one succeful hide in shadows during the activation, the ability is consumed (only in wild areas).
- Summon ally - ranger class ability/cast time - a ranger can cast a random animal summon spell of his level list to help him in battle, the animals that can be summoned are x (at level 1), y, (at level 4)...

these are just examples, abilities that aren't required to beat the game, are simple, not entangled feats mixed where to get a specific feat you have to make a pre-evaluation before start the game (as happens with most 3° ed rule games), they aren't all that powerful and can bring some balance to the game (as the knockdown example, to put fighters even with mages).

Felix

Thanks!! Based on the info everyone has given, I will be playing a MC Fighter/cleric (when BGEE comes out). I usually play as a SC Fighter but find that it gets a bit boring and im not too bothered about kits, the host of spells I will have will more than make up for any 'kit abilities' and I can still dual wield maces and Hammers:)