A few powergamer Questions (Character creation)

Thorgaaz

First of all the Kensay->Mage. He is hyped so much everywhere but I really wonder why? Sure he can be a beast with Tenseis Transformation at highlevels but yust compare him to Fighter->Mage Dualclass.

Kensei
Get +2 AC Bonus
Get Bonus THCO and Dmg
Kai ability

Fighter
Can wield Armor and Shield and shiel alone is at least equil.
Can choose to wield Ranged Weapons and Gauntlets

So, if I understand Correctely: At Lowlevel the Fighter is simply Stronger because his Armor beats the low bonus of the Kensei. The small extradmg isnt worth the trouble. At Highlevel even as an caster you may choose to stay back to not endanger the Wizard if you´re a fighter instead of Kensai. And even under Tenseis Transformation they´re quiet equil. The Kensei deals a lot more Dmg, but The Shieldwearing Fighter has an even higher Armor class. By the way is it possible to cast Transformation bevore Battle, and than yump in with Fieldplate?

The second Question is about Swashbuckler. Am I wrong or does he really reach an higher AC than the Fighter at Highlevel? Even more if he lerns the wear every Item ability at that point?

And lastely Im thinking about an swashbuckler Druid. What do you think about that combo?

Greetings: Thorgaaz

joluv

I think the standard powergamey way of playing a high-level Fighter->Mage is to wear the Robe of Vecna, dual wield with Improved Haste, and cast protective spells instead of relying on armor or a shield. So you don't really lose anything there by being a Kensai. The helmet prohibition matters more now that Ioun Stones no longer protect against critical hits. Anyway, Berserker->Mage is better.

Yes, Swashbucklers can get very low AC.

Swashbuckler->Druid isn't a legal class, but it sounds powerful.

Thorgaaz

Thanks for the quick answer. I´ve played BG1 multiply times but never BG2 and ToB, so i didnt know about these Items.

Pretty sad sashb. Druid isnt possible. I read somewhere that Dualclass into Druids is ok. Even read about the Charisma limit you need if you want to. I will never fully understand the syntax behind that Dualclassing options. Seems pretty random for me.

Is it possible to switch into Armor after tenseis Transformation?

Chad

You should be able to dual class in to a druid from a thief kit so long as you have at least 17 WIS, 17 CHA and 15 DEX.

Kensai -> mage or berzerker - > mage are both very powerful. Personally I prefer a multi-class Fighter/Mage. You lose the ability to grandmaster a weapon, but that's only a 1/2 attack and you can still reach 10 attacks under improved haste 2 (dual wield) + 1 (lvl 13 fighter) + 1/2 (specialization) + 1/2 (guantlets) +1 (speed weapon in off hand) = 5 attacks/round... the dual class route just wouldn't need the guantlets due to the extra 1/2 attack from grandmastery. However, no fighter HLA's. Improved Haste with Critical Strike is pretty devastating... Regardless, it's really comparing really powerful vs. really really powerful so honestly whatever flavor your most comfortable with is going to be amazingly powerful... Any combination of Fighter/Mage or Kit -> mage is uber.

JumboWheat01

Dual-classing has one simple stipulation, if it's available for the non-human races to use as a multiclass combination, then you can dual-class. So for Druid, that's only Fighter. But for Fighter, you could go into Thief, Mage, Cleric or Druid. And you could do a Cleric/Ranger combination, but not a Cleric/Druid combination.

The second stipulation isn't too hard to grasp, you need to have an 18 in the primary stat of your class you currently are (usually what people go for,) and a 17 in the primary stat of the class you wish to go into. So, for instance, take Imoen. She has 18 Dexterity and 17 Intelligence. Thieves have only one primary stat, Dexterity, so she has that covered, and Mages have only one primary state, Intelligence, which she has the minimum covered for dual-classing. If she only had 17 Dexterity or 16 Intelligence, she wouldn't be able to do so.

Druids and Rangers have more required stats than the other classes you can dual-class with, so it makes dual-classing them them a bit more annoying.

Chad

ah, I forgot about the issue where if it is not a legal multi-class you cannot dual class it either... However, your stat requirements are wrong @JumboWheat01 You need a 15 in the primary stat of your ORIGINAL class and a 17 in the primary stat of the new class. So for a druid you need 17 WIS And CHA, for example. Unfortunately this means @Thorgaaz dream of a SB->Druid can never be (at least not legally...)

Thorgaaz

thanks again. I will think about it. Maybe the choise of having him Frontline or not might decide it.

To the Swashb./Druid, i would be very glad if it would. Both classes works so damn well together, but after all i read until now, i think joluv is right. Because Druids are like Rangers the big exceptions for whatever reason.
Sereously I could see an Ranger who needs to steal after a bad hunt way easier than one who decide to join the cloister in a roleplaying way.
Its yust an little sad because i loved to play someone with light shied, Scimitar and mediumarmor at the frontline. Plus to get the stats of 18 in everything but Int really took forever.

JumboWheat01

I had a feeling I got something backwards. The only human characters I've had so far have been of classes that can't dual-class.

Jarrakul

It's worth noting that you can't cast spells in armor (except elven chain), so the fighter's armor use is pretty useless in a fighter->mage dual. Your spell protections (mirror image, stoneskin, protection from magic weapons) will do you more good than any armor in the game anyway. As for ranged weapons, they're not as necessary once you have spells, and kensai can wield throwing daggers and throwing axes anyway. The loss of gauntlets ends up being the kensai's greatest disadvantage in this build, compared to the vanilla fighter.

Incidentally, I feel that berserkers are stronger almost across the board. They don't have quite kensai-level damage at high levels, but they're equivalent at low levels, and they can still wear armor. Additionally, their rage provides probably the best suite of immunities in the game. Whether the berserker is really better than the kensai at higher levels is a subject of much debate, but it's definitely better at low levels.

Thorgaaz

Well, i guess i would go with the Berserker at last. In erly game he is way more comftable as the Kensei and later on he is like you said able to cast his Armor or stands in the Backrow. Now I only have to think about the Weapos style, Bastardswords or 2H Weapons for example. But that will ait until tomorrow. Going to bed now. Big thanks to you all.

JumboWheat01

I suggest the two-handed weapons, swords, or halberds. They have an extra "reach" to them that let you stand behind the tank and still hit the thing in front of htem.

Chad

Reach weapons are a fine choice, but if you want to be a damage dealer go dual wield. Bastard swords have great end game options, but long swords and scimitars are better for bg1 and soa. Axes are also a great choice.

JumboWheat01

Axes are a VERY good choice, my Wizard Slayer's rocking a pair of axes right now.

magisensei

Oddly enough the swash > fighter actually has better AC than a pure fighter actually the best AC of any class I think - this of course should not be allowed as it is dualing an almost fighter with another fighter.

Kensai >mage vs fighter > mage

if you dual both at level 7 or 9 or 12- then the Thac0 is better for the kensai as it improves at a faster rate than a fighter does that extra + 1 to hit and damage gained every 3 levels beats any plus that a fighter can get with bracers of weapon specialization. And therefore the kensai > mage is slightly more powerful than a regular figther>mage at the same level.

Yes a f>m is slightly better at early levels (he can wear armor during the early difficult levels) especially when you have limited spells but once a mage gets blur / mirror image / stone skin / wraith form (or really you can use the shield amulet or potion of defense until then) it changes the dynamics of a kensai>mage making it a better dual - the added +2 to AC on character creation is better than a fighter when he losses his armor when he duals to a mage. Mage robes can be worn almost be worn by a kensai as it is not considered armor in the traditional sense. The weak AC of a kensai is easily overcome with magical items and potions even before getting level 2 protection spells.

I think the only real plus to a fighter >mage over a kensai>mage is the use of missile weapons - which a kensai cannot really use unless you use throwing knives or return throwing daggers (which only appear in BG2); and maybe the use of shields good for early levels for a fighter and there are some good ones that can be useful in BG2 but not really needed.

Ah thief > druid - sadly is not possible also sounds at bit unusual a thief lives in a city and a druid in a forest - what would a thief turned druid do?; if only the ranger > mage would be allowed but sadly also not a legal combination - a dream that will never happen.

Any specialist fighter kit dualed to a mage is awesomely powerful even the unusual and quirky wizard slayer> mage - which should not be allowed.

Any specialist fighter kit dualed to a thief is also awesomely powerful at higher levels - and meant for those that love to backstab - imagine grandmastery in swords with a kensai Thac0 with a x5 backstab (with optional buffs) - basically kills all enemy casters or monsters unless you roll a critical miss.

One last note on fighter >mage - you might as well create a multiclass fighter/mage instead - as it will eventually get more powerful than any regular dual figher>mage; at higher levels it will destroy all dual classes eventually plus there is no downtime with dualing although it might take a bit longer to be a power house.

Weapon choices for a kensai or berserker that will eventually dualed to a mage - use only long swords or katana as your primary weapon (5 proficiency points for grandmastery dualed at 12); 3 points in dual wielding - you can use another other weapon with a penalty to hit it as is not worth spending a proficiency point in something that is only useful at low levels.

Last thoughts on a kensai especially in BG of all the specialist classes this is the only real class that was designed it seems for dualing into a mage - if the kensai like the monk had an AC improvement for each 2 or 3 levels then you would want to play a pure kensai for maximum melee power but sadly this was never implemented in BG and so you get the kensai kit that really works best when you dual into a mage creating the powerful kensmage.

joluv

magisensei said:

Oddly enough the swash > fighter actually has better AC than a pure fighter actually the best AC of any class I think - this of course should not be allowed as it is dualing an almost fighter with another fighter.

As discussed in this thread (mostly by @Gotural ), there's a minimum possible AC, and several classes (including any Thieves with UAI) are able to attain it.

magisensei said:

I think the only real plus to a fighter >mage over a kensai>mage is the use of missile weapons - which a kensai cannot really use unless you use throwing knives or return throwing daggers (which only appear in BG2); and maybe the use of shields good for early levels for a fighter and there are some good ones that can be useful in BG2 but not really needed.

There are also throwing axes and throwing hammers. And not being able to wear bracers or proper helmets are legitimate drawbacks for a combat-oriented Kensai->Mage.

FinneousPJ

I used to be a Kensai->Mage believer but lately I have started to favor the Multiclass. It is very powerful throughout the game and ultimately more powerful than the dual thanks to HLAs. Consider even the FMT multi if you don't mind losing 9th level spells.

Chad

FMT is my favorite. They don't need 9th level spells to be powerful, just treat them like a thief, use them as scout, backstabber, but can also have all the defensive buffs to stick around for the melee using Mislead, Tenser's, PFMW, etc. Not as powerful as the F/M or kit->M, but way more fun IMO.

Jarrakul

My main problem with the fighter/mage multi is that it takes a very long time to get 9th level spells if you run with a full party. That said, there are very few problems that can be solved with 9th level spells that can't be solved with Improved Haste + Critical Strike.

FinneousPJ

Jarrakul said:

My main problem with the fighter/mage multi is that it takes a very long time to get 9th level spells if you run with a full party. That said, there are very few problems that can be solved with 9th level spells that can't be solved with Improved Haste + Critical Strike.

@Jarrakul If you're running with a full party you should have another guy as a dedicated caster, making it a non-issue.

FinneousPJ

@Chad FMT is ultimately a way more powerful combatant than the FM dual or multiclass. The only downside is the diminished spellcasting (and somewhat slow leveling). But once you reach HLAs it's unrivaled.

Chad

FinneousPJ said:

@Chad FMT is ultimately a way more powerful combatant than the FM dual or multiclass. The only downside is the diminished spellcasting (and somewhat slow leveling). But once you reach HLAs it's unrivaled.

I don't know if I would go so far as saying 'way more powerful than FM' since 9th level spells are required for things like Improved Alacrity, timestop and black blade of disaster. I would say that they are in that top tier of powerful enough to handle any battle in the game with appropriate strategy, but it's really a discussion of play style since FM or FMT can both take on anything the game throws at you. FMT gets UAI (but doesn't really need it since can already use most items, just helps for things like Carsomyr), backstab, and perhaps most powerful, epic traps while FM gets 9th level spells and 10th level/HLA spells. Both are very powerful end game abilities. I prefer the FMT for things like backstab, traps and utility, but 9th/10th level spells are extremely powerful and put the FM (dual or multi) on the same level IMO, just with different tactics required and faster leveling, especially if dual.

magisensei

joluv said:

magisensei said:

I think the only real plus to a fighter >mage over a kensai>mage is the use of missile weapons - which a kensai cannot really use unless you use throwing knives or return throwing daggers (which only appear in BG2); and maybe the use of shields good for early levels for a fighter and there are some good ones that can be useful in BG2 but not really needed.

There are also throwing axes and throwing hammers. And not being able to wear bracers or proper helmets are legitimate drawbacks for a combat-oriented Kensai->Mage.

Yes true - can't wear bracers or helmets - but the kensai's +1 to hit/damage for every 3 levels beats any bracers you can find; while the lack of helmet is a draw back there are no opponents that carry a vorpal sword for distant kill on a roll of 20 - (plus you have stone skin or mirror image to absorb the critical hits); as for the magical bonuses that certain helmets give - yes there are some great helmets to use in BG2 but potions, magical items and spells will compensate for a lack of a helmet quite easily.

As for not using throwing axes or hammers yes a disadvantage, a kensai also cannot use the great bows (in BG2) and nifty magical arrows but you have a party to cover for you so not a problem really. But there is the fire tooth +3 and the boomerang dagger that a kensai is able to use.

joluv

@magisensei: I was saying that a Kensai can use throwing axes and throwing hammers. I'm not arguing one direction or the other, just trying to give a complete picture of the pros and cons.

Argas

People argue if dwarven defender is better or the berserker the DD is better though with magic resistance but the fighter/druid is better than DD. I also think the kensai--)mage might be better than fighter--)mage but kensai as human..is he still that strong isnt the fighter--)mage better to play..im not sure but anyway I know one should play with what he like..

Thorgaaz

Hmm, i can see the advantages of both now. But i still thing i stay with Berserk/Wizard. The reason is simple Laziness. Its ok to prepare spells and Potions for hard battles, but i like it if i can yust click on the oppoment too (at least at normal Battles) With an Fighter I can do this as long as i´m equipped. With Kensei I need to cast or take a potion first. So all in all the Fighter armorswitch seems way easier to fullfill than the casting. And even each lvl1 Armorspell is taking one useful slot for example for Magic missiles away.
And yes I want lvl10 spells too if I have the choise. And isnt the Dual Fighter/mage at least equil than the Multiversion if it comes to HP?

FMTs only advantages are Thiefskills, Casymir and Backstab right? I mean thats not bad, but having a lower level i think hes equil. I would decide on having another Thief in Party or not i guess.

To the Swashbuckler Fighter, all in all this is for lifepoints only right? Maybe Weaponmastery too, but thanks to carry all items its not neccessary to switch to fighter for Ac. The Swashi has even more AC by himself. (should easily reach the cap)

Chad

Your Berserker -> mage dual (or any dual) will get to level 9 spells faster and have one more cast of lvl 9 spells / day. The power of the Fighter/Mage multi is in the ability to still cast lvl 9/10 spells and also use Fighter HLA's. Not so much for Greater Whirlwind, but for Critical Strike since Improved Haste is essentially Greater Whirlwind + for round / level vs. GW only lasting one round. Again, when talking about these different classes it's really arguing 1 and 1a, since all of them will wreck anything you face. Some don't like dual (like me) because the down time is rather annoying. I would only dual at 7 or 9 because 13 basically requires either cheese such as not taking quest rewards until you dual and kicking out party members to learn your scrolls or going through more than half of SoA as a weak mage until you hit 14 and get your zerker class back. My preference is multi because there is no down time, but some don't mind the down time or just cheese to instantly get back levels as stated above. In the end multi = no downtime, dual = 9th level spells faster and more a few more spells/day.

FMT is a whole different monster, as I said originally it should be played as a Thief++, not as a Fighter/Mage. Backstab is insanely powerful in SoA, especially when you get the staff of the magi and UAI for Carsomyr makes getting near 100% MR doable in ToB. End of the day it is all about play style and what you find fun. If you want to go with Improved Haste, BBoD, Timestop, Critical Strike and whack away, any fighter/mage dual or multi will be fun for you. If you want to use stealth/misdirection/staff of the magi and see some big backstab numbers FMT is lots of fun. When you come up against BS immune enemies you can always use scrolls for timestop or other level 9 spells if you need or use any other tactics as you see fit. UAI lets you really use a myriad of tactics along with your already huge selection of options from three classes. The downside is the slow leveling means your always a level or two behind in terms of what spell level you can cast, but you will get more HLA's and be able to select from all three classes to mix and match for some very synergistic options. Time trap + Improved Haste + Critical Strike, for instance.

To reiterate, it is really a matter of what you find fun to play because any combination of fighter mage, dual or multi is up there with the most powerful classes.

magisensei

joluv said:

@magisensei: I was saying that a Kensai can use throwing axes and throwing hammers. I'm not arguing one direction or the other, just trying to give a complete picture of the pros and cons.

Sorry misunderstood.

I might add that my current run has a pure kensai and she cannot use returning throwing axes at all - she bought the axe for destroying the undead and cannot equip it - I thought I could change the setting to use the melee option but nope that does not work since she cannot equip it at all in order the change the setting.

Tenrecc

Thorgaaz said:

FMTs only advantages are Thiefskills, Casymir and Backstab right? I mean thats not bad, but having a lower level i think hes equil. I would decide on having another Thief in Party or not i guess.

You're forgetting traps though, which pushes him leaps and bounds ahead of a zerker/wizard once you pick up your first HLA. Since they don't despawn or overlap, you only need 1 HLA in Time Trap to stop time for 70 seconds at the start of a fight. Yes, 70. Yes, one HLA.

And in fights you can't Time Trap, like Demogorgon, you can always Spike Trap, which instakills anything.

Thiefskills, Use Any Item, Traps, and Backstab is in no way "only" advantages. It's a lot better than having a few 9th level spells, some more HP and some immunities.

joluv

@magisensei: Does your Kensai have a "Good" alignment? The Azuredge is alignment-restricted.

Thorgaaz

Right, I forgot Traps. And there is another advantadge from Multi compared to dual i forgot and thats the race. Which might lead to higher saving throws and stuff.

And its somehow strange that the Multiclass even get more HLAs. I mean its clear why, it does levelup more often. But that really breake these already broken classes. And that for undecided players who doesnt want to play one role. Thats... really an questionabe aspect.

But in the End Im glad for creating this Topic. Its been very interesting and I lerned a lot of it. Thanks.
To my decision, i rolled a lot of characters a short while ago. Enought for creating three whole Multiplayerparties. In the one which already has a thief I use the Berserker wizard. In the other an F/M/T elf.

Now I yust choose the party i want to play at that moment. And im pretty sure it´ll be fun.

Thorgaaz

Yust in case you want to know about the partys...

No1
Dark Paladin, Ranger/Cleric, Shaman, Skald, Mage/thief, Dragonsholar (the sorcerer kit)

No2
Knight, Fight/Druid dual, Swashbuckler, Sunsoulmonk, Sorcerer, Cle/Illu

No3
Barb/Druid dual, Dwarven Defender, Berserker/Mage dual, FMT, Kensei/thief dual, Archer

Probably the strongest Team would be:
Fight/Druid dual, Ranger/Cleric, FMT, Archer, Clerik/Illu, Sorcerer
But i decided not to play this Party because its too close to my old one. And I really guess i should be able to beat the Game with these partys too.